Mass-casualty shooting at Orlando nightclub

[aztek]

1 minute ago, Jack Skellington said:

Maybe there are some simple-- common sense things that can be done. People like to talk about their rights to own guns (bear arms) but it is not a universal right at all. Your ability to own or bear weapons varies from State to State and even County by County. It can vary from building to building as people also have 'the right' to restrict your 'right' to bring weapons onto a particular premises. 

Here in San Diego it's almost impossible to obtain a concealed carry permit because the local Sheriff deems it unnecessary for "most" residents to carry. Your 'rights' can not only be restricted on a case by case basis-- they can be removed entirely. Convicted felons lose their right to vote in some (but not all) States and restrictions on owning weapons are common-- maybe the bar should be lowered?

We restrict certain kinds of weapons--fully automatic and also large capacity magazines are banned. It would not be difficult (FOR EXAMPLE, not as a suggestion) to restrict people with restraining orders against them from purchasing or keeping weapons, or people who have had their driver's license revoked, or DUI's or people on psychiatric medications, and so on.

There is also such a thing as "guilt by association."  If (for example) young Mormon men were consistently involved in mass shootings, wouldn't it be fair to say, restrict young Mormon men from obtaining weapons? Think about it... If we had had Mormon missionaries (zealots) attack innocents in Fort Hood, in Paris, in Brussels, in San Bernardino and now in Florida (to name only a few examples) there would be an outcry about the dangers of Mormonism and there would be a call to put restrictions on young Mormon men---particularly if it was known that these men were being indoctrinated and encouraged and equipped through their association and instruction at their local churches. 

But you'll never hear the connection made where Islamic men are factually known to have been influenced at their local mosque. Maybe you give up your 'right' to own a gun when you choose to attend a radical mosque, or maybe this is simply a consideration when this is another red flag in a background check. Like demerit points-- at a certain threshold of red flag items your rights are relinquished. 

what you suggesting is mostly already exists. i did not see any solution in your post.

now, guilt by association. blacks commit most violent crimes, based on your solution should all blacks be locked up? 

 

[Hawken]

Keep in mind that Timothy McVeigh and Ted (Unabomber) Kaczynski didn't use guns.

Here's an interesting article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

[bubblykiss]

Just now, Hawkin said:

Keep in mind that Timothy McVeigh and Ted (Unabomber) Kaczynski didn't use guns.

Here's an interesting article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

 

Timmy lived in Kingman AZ, the type of high dry desert one associates with the West. All that hot dry air baked his brain until it was mummified with pure stupid.

And Teddy sat himself apart from his society, living in his little shack in the woods. He held a full Ph.D but gave up on society/humanity. 

They were men who needed help, not an arsenal to inflict pain and misery upon the world with.

[aztek]

6 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

No, I am not. Problems can have multiple roots. I could also give it a different view: You just don't want it to be an issue. 

Compassion is important for democratic societes. 

lol, sure, important, also highly subjective.  

it is not an issue, we had no such events 30-40 years ago, gun laws were a lot less strict.  

[+and-then]

42 minutes ago, Jack Skellington said:

That's a ridiculous and quite thoughtless position. 

Yes- we are a nation of laws. Their purpose is not solely to punish lawbreakers after the fact, but to prevent crime and to protect our way of life. To follow your logic we don't need law enforcement or investigators anymore, just judges and jail guards. Maybe all we need is clean up crews to mop blood from floors and gravediggers?

Let's dispense with vigilance and our security in trade for an America where only the micro aggression offenses are important, but actual criminal intent is ignored until carnage reigns upon our citizenry. 

You'd bury a million innocents, than prevent one madman from carrying out mad acts of violence-- why? You wouldn't want to offend anyone?  

This puke was a known bad actor. Known to be a member of a radical mosque. Known to be an associate of a suicide bomber from that same mosque. Known to have travelled to Saudia Arabia twice. Known to be violent. Known to have made threats. Known to be sexist, racist and gay-hating. Known to law enforcement. Known to coworkers and supervisors at work to be unstable and volatile. Known to his family to be all that he was.   

But no one did anything to deter him. No one acted on any 'accusations' because we've allowed an environment of weakness to grow like mold on the American consciousness. A fungus at the root, watered by the President himself. 

I would rather bury a million innocents than allow those who want to end the 2nd amendment to succeed.  Frankly, when the day comes that the Left manage to chip away enough or use some "emergency" to attempt confiscation then that million deaths will just be a drop in the bucket.  When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

FBI directory Comey said this morning that this man had made very specific threats and allusions to extremists yet no flag went up when he attempted to purchase 2 semi auto weapons.  He had been investigated TWICE.  Damned straight he should have been followed after he purchased them even if it took weeks.  And I gladly include myself in that million dead.  The Second Amendment is THAT important to me.

[Jack Skellington]

6 minutes ago, aztek said:

how nice of you not understand his post, or intentionally twist it. 

yes, he'd rather bury million, than live in society where you punished before you commit a crime.  and he is far from alone.

 

Then you sail on the same ship of fools. 

"You'd rather bury a million..."  How callous. What shallow thought. 

No one is suggesting thought police who incarcerate people on the basis of a neighbor thinking he wasn't very friendly  

What we are saying is let the facts lead where they will. Let the facts lead to conclusions. To actions. 

If only Omar's supervisors had taken 'the accusations' (observations) of his coworker more seriously.  If only the abuse of ex-wife had been considered. If only being closely associated enough to a suicide bomber to warrant 3 separate FBI interviews would disqualify you from buying guns.... 

If only any of that we wouldn't have to bury 50 this week ,never mind a million you care so little about. 

[aztek]

8 minutes ago, Jack Skellington said:

 

If only Omar's supervisors had taken 'the accusations' (observations) of his coworker more seriously.  If only the abuse of ex-wife had been considered. If only being closely associated enough to a suicide bomber to warrant 3 separate FBI interviews would disqualify you from buying guns.... 

 

i can't argue with that,   yes to all above,  yet it has nothing to do with lenient laws, or not effective gun control.  blame fbi for not connecting the dots. 

now, if someone at your work reports your behavior as extremist, for whatever reason, what would you expect to be fair measures to take about you? should your guns be taken away? driver license revoked, children of yours removed? until investigation is over, whenever that may be.

would you be ok with that? maybe put you in jail, until everything is sorted out, just to be safe.,

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[GoldenWolf]

8 minutes ago, and then said:

I would rather bury a million innocents than allow those who want to end the 2nd amendment to succeed. 

I hope this is some type of demented joke^.

[FLOMBIE]

12 minutes ago, aztek said:

lol, sure, important, also highly subjective.  

it is not an issue, we had no such events 30-40 years ago, gun laws were a lot less strict.  

The times, they are a changin. And laws are ought to adapt to the changing world. Your founding fathers recognized that as well. 

[FLOMBIE]

14 minutes ago, and then said:

I would rather bury a million innocents than allow those who want to end the 2nd amendment to succeed.  Frankly, when the day comes that the Left manage to chip away enough or use some "emergency" to attempt confiscation then that million deaths will just be a drop in the bucket.  When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.

FBI directory Comey said this morning that this man had made very specific threats and allusions to extremists yet no flag went up when he attempted to purchase 2 semi auto weapons.  He had been investigated TWICE.  Damned straight he should have been followed after he purchased them even if it took weeks.  And I gladly include myself in that million dead.  The Second Amendment is THAT important to me.

Just wow! 

[+OverSword]

My personal theory about this incident is that the guy was an extremely closeted homosexual that hated himself for these feelings.  ISIS and Islam was just a convenient excuse for this maniac to take his self hatred out on the world.

[Hawken]

14 minutes ago, bubblykiss said:

 

Timmy lived in Kingman AZ, the type of high dry desert one associates with the West. All that hot dry air baked his brain until it was mummified with pure stupid.

And Teddy sat himself apart from his society, living in his little shack in the woods. He held a full Ph.D but gave up on society/humanity. 

They were men who needed help, not an arsenal to inflict pain and misery upon the world with.

The end result is still death to innocent people regardless.

[FLOMBIE]

Just now, OverSword said:

My personal theory about this incident is that the guy was an extremely closeted homosexual that hated himself for these feelings.  ISIS and Islam was just a convenient excuse for this maniac to take his self hatred out on the world.

I have similar feelings. This incident might have been inspired by the Bataclan attack. 

[aztek]

3 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

The times, they are a changin. And laws are ought to adapt to the changing world. 

you do not get it do you? laws do not prevent anything, they only make something illegal. which is not actually preventing anything in reality. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[Jack Skellington]

25 minutes ago, aztek said:

what you suggesting is mostly already exists. i did not see any solution in your post.

Then your either dense or deliberately obtuse. 

I've made several suggestions of things that could or should be done-- not to restrict any 2nd amendment rights of "law abiding" citizens, but as a means to review and restrict those who may have criminal intent.  

Your solution?  Oh-- you mentioned it.... Dig more graves  

 

[FLOMBIE]

Just now, aztek said:

you do not get it do you? laws to not prevent anything, they only make something illegal. which is not actually preventing anything in reality. 

I didn't say anything about prevention. Laws are there to punish people who break them. Regulation, however, does prevent something. Of course not everything, but it does. 

Still, laws are ought to adapt to a changing world. Most laws have.

[Hawken]

3 minutes ago, aztek said:

you do not get it do you? laws do not prevent anything, they only make something illegal. which is not actually preventing anything in reality. 

A law is their to work as a deterrent. Most people obey that law but there are those that aren't deterred by it.

Hence, gangs in major cities like Chicago and terrorist.

[RavenHawk]

15 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

<First part clipped>

You need to look at Merc’s link.

This is how you prevent mass shootings.

Requiring licensing will not stop the killing.  How easy and how often are cars stolen?  If you are intent on killing, you’re going to be able to attain a gun or bomb or poison, or a car.  And what if the weapons are being supplied by Salafist groups that are here under the radar?

America has a mental health problem, disguised as a gun problem. Fix the people and the gun issue will resolve itself. (Talk about "easier said than done"..)

I think a major component is the kind of leadership we have.  Right now we have leadership that touts that your hard work is not yours.  Because of that one loses self-reliance.  And once self-reliance is gone, hope is lost.  Hope in a better future wanes and is replaced by anger.  But this covers only the domestic non-Islamic terrorism.  Islamic terrorism is not based on a sick mind, but a devout one, willing to sacrifice for Allah, the greatest expression of love.

 

[aztek]

 

14 minutes ago, Jack Skellington said:

Then your either dense or deliberately obtuse. 

I've made several suggestions of things that could or should be done-- not to restrict any 2nd amendment rights of "law abiding" citizens, but as a means to review and restrict those who may have criminal intent.  

Your solution?  Oh-- you mentioned it.... Dig more graves  

 

no, i'm neither dense or deliberately obtuse, you just do not offer anything that either does not exist, (there is a long list of people who are banned from having guns, already). 

you brought up guilt by association, i showed you an example, you have not responded to that. 

my solution is simple, help people not become victims.  yes that includes killing those who attempts to assault\rape\kill\rob,  right on the spot,..... how about that as deterrent? and taking wrong people off the street at the same time.

no law in the world would prevent a 200lb high on drugs dude, no to rape someone if he so desires, but 1 well placed bullet will.

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek

[Jack Skellington]

G4S Security will without a doubt be named in the lawsuits brought by the families of the victims and those wounded. 

The cost of political correctness--

http://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/crime/2016/06/12/who-omar-mateen/85791280/

[Jack Skellington]

The similarities to the San Bernardino massacre are chilling...

The first wife -- Sitora Yusufly (who has stated he was abusive) was by green card marriage to the woman who came here from Uzbekistan.

That marriage ended quickly and he took another bride- Noor Zahi Salman- his current wife with whom he had a child. Why have we heard so little about her?  How many more of these occupancies before our Government recognizes a serious immigration problem and a serious home-grown, religious-driven Islamic terrorism problem?

This past April, Omar sold his house to his sister for $10...  But that's not unusual, right?  How could the family have known anything was amiss with this guy?

 

[Thanato]

5 hours ago, Ashotep said:

Sooo...Christians may not like gays but they aren't throwing them off buildings. 

Caught on Video=> “Gays Must Die” Says Islamic Speaker at Orlando Mosque

 

No they havn't some just use guns. others preach for them to be killed, others praised this attack on social media.

 

5 hours ago, aztek said:

no they do not,  not accepting as normal, and killing over it are 2 different things.  

There have been many documented attacks of fundamentalist Christians killing LGBT people.

[aztek]

Just now, Thanato said:

 

 

There have been many documented attacks of fundamentalist Christians killing LGBT people.

when? in crusades time?  would you mind showing us those documents?

[Thanato]

Just now, aztek said:

when? in crusades time?  would you mind showing us those documents?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States

[aztek]

6 minutes ago, Thanato said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people#United_States

lol, it getting boring with you, first you make stupid claims, than you link as a proof articles that do not prove anything you said. 

you linked list of all attacks on homosexuals, yet no where it even implies attack where for reason of Christian religion. which is what you claim.

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by aztek