Mass-casualty shooting at Orlando nightclub

[shadowhive]

Just now, and then said:

That's your prerogative.  There are still a lot of people in this country that will willingly die to remain free.  If that isn't as important from your perspective then that's fine by me, it is your life.

I agree, freedom is important. But what you said meant you'd be more ok with a million people losing their freedom to live than to lose your freedom to own a weapon.

[seeder]

Brutal Honesty coming, perhaps very controversial too

Is homosexuality a thing blessed...or - OK -  by any any religion?

OK we nowadays have legal same sex marriages, But I dont think Ive heard of any taking place in a church

 

Quote

 

The law prevents ministers of the Church of England from carrying out same-sex marriages. And although there are no authorised services for blessing a same-sex civil marriage, your local church can still support you with prayer.

https://www.yourchurchwedding.org/article/information-for-same-sex-couples/

 

 

Why would WE.... have such a view? I say we as the article indicates Church of England... and Im not sure about the rest of Europe/the World

Now, I dont want to draw any flack for this, I fully accept there are gay men, lesbian, woman who were once men and men who now live as women. I accept it in the same way I accept every other shade of skin on the planet....from pale skinned people, through progressive shades of color thru to black...Ive spent considerable time around gay people in a social sense thru, working (as security) in gay bars/clubs/raves

I know its not for me, but live and let live.... the UK is truly multicultural, multi sexual, and truly tolerant of all...

But you wont be getting married in a Church under our national religion, Christianity....

 

Quote

 

When Parliament made same-sex marriage legal in England and Wales with effect from March 2014, it created a headache for the Church of England and other organised religions whose teachings, tradition and doctrine hold that marriage can be only between a man and a woman.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33109170

 

So....if our religion FORBIDS that.....  its just as well we dont have nutjob Christians trying to spread 'their version' of Christianity

 

Edited June 13, 2016 by seeder

[shadowhive]

1 minute ago, seeder said:

Brutal Honesty coming, perhaps very controversial too

Is homosexuality a thing blessed...or - OK -  by any any religion?

OK we nowadays have legal same sex marriages, But I dont think Ive heard of any taking place in a church

 

 

Why would WE.... have such a view? I say we as the article indicates Church of England... and Im not sure about the rest of Europe/the World

Now, I dont want to draw any flack for this, I fully accept there are gay men, lesbian, woman who were once men and men who now live as women. I accept it in the same way I accept every other shade of skin on the planet....from pale skinned people, through progressive shades of color thru to black...Ive spent considerable time around gay people in a social sense thru, working (as security) in gay bars/clubs/raves

I know its not for me, but live and let live.... the UK is truly multicultural, multi sexual, and truly tolerant of all...

But you wont be getting married in a Church under our national religion, Christianity....

 

 

 

Well the church of england didn't want to be forced to perform ssame sex marriages and they got what they wanted, an exemption. Originally the law was going to be that non religious organisation ould perform same sex marriages... but a group of them came together. The quakers and a few others WANTED to bless same sex marriages and so the law came out with the church of england being banned (so much so even if they change their views they have to go through parliament to have it made legal) and everyone else can opt in and opt out.

While the doctoriens are 'clear' about being against homosexuality, many denominations have no evolved on the issue and don't take so accept LGBT people, couples and families as full equals.

[+and-then]

16 minutes ago, shadowhive said:

I agree, freedom is important. But what you said meant you'd be more ok with a million people losing their freedom to live than to lose your freedom to own a weapon.

Not just MY freedom.  The freedom of an entire nation.  I realize we are never going to agree on this point.  The perspectives are just too far apart.  I respect that and I'd just appreciate the same from our cousins across the pond.

[+OverSword]

21 minutes ago, FLOMBIE said:

I never said you wanted. I asked. Do you see the difference? 

 

19 minutes ago, and then said:

I haven't seen any reports on that.  I guess if anyone else returned fire then autopsies might reveal that.  I don't know for a fact but if the place served alcohol it was probably not allowed to conceal carry - for good reasons.

 

 

Would you two get on subject before Saru closes the thread please?

[+and-then]

Just now, OverSword said:

 

 

 

Would you two get on subject before Saru closes the thread please?

Don't you think this one has about run the course anyway?  We're hardly the only divergent elements.  Now it seems to be slipping into a discussion of gay rights.  For my part, I'm okay with whatever is being discussed so long as some smartass doesn't cheap shot me and expect me to take it.  

[seeder]

2 minutes ago, shadowhive said:

Well the church of england didn't want to be forced to perform ssame sex marriages and they got what they wanted, an exemption. Originally the law was going to be that non religious organisation ould perform same sex marriages... but a group of them came together. The quakers and a few others WANTED to bless same sex marriages and so the law came out with the church of england being banned (so much so even if they change their views they have to go through parliament to have it made legal) and everyone else can opt in and opt out.

While the doctoriens are 'clear' about being against homosexuality, many denominations have no evolved on the issue and don't take so accept LGBT people, couples and families as full equals.

 

OK Lets take it a dreaded step further.... and folk PLEASE accept Im playing Devils advocate.... and have no axe to grind,,,, BUT

If OUR Christ, and OUR God, were asked directly..... what 'forms' of sexuality were OK with THEM.... would the answer be simply, heterosexual relationships?

Again I state I have NO axe to grind nor wish to offend any gay members, sincerely... what Im getting at is.....there is ROOM perhaps in our own religion...for some Christian nutter to do the same as the OP story, inasmuch as target the gay population....(rather than join in with IS warped ideology)

[RavenHawk]

10 minutes ago, shadowhive said:

I dunno. I think saying you'd not care if a million people died as along as you kept guns sounds far more disgusting from where I'm sitting.

I don’t think that is what he really mean, it’s just the phasing is awkward.  The Constitution, especially the first two Amendments is so precious that it is worth the life of every Man, Woman, *AND* Child to preserve it.  This is what defines us as a people.  I guess the only people that truly understand this (besides a handful of Americans) are Jews and Salafists (belief in their founding doctrine).

[shadowhive]

7 minutes ago, seeder said:

 

OK Lets take it a dreaded step further.... and folk PLEASE accept Im playing Devils advocate.... and have no axe to grind,,,, BUT

If OUR Christ, and OUR God, were asked directly..... what 'forms' of sexuality were OK with THEM.... would the answer be simply, heterosexual relationships?

Again I state I have NO axe to grind nor wish to offend any gay members, sincerely... what Im getting at is.....there is ROOM perhaps in our own religion...for some Christian nutter to do the same as the OP story, inasmuch as target the gay population....(rather than join in with IS warped ideology)

Christianity has targetted the gay population pretty much since it was founded. People have been imprisoned, abused, tortured and murdered for being gay by christians who think like that. Even christians that don't do those things still target us our rights and freedoms.

If god of jesus exists and came down, I hope he'd knock their heads together and tell them how wrong they were. But as I believe in neither it won't happen and so... we have the mess we have.

Edited June 13, 2016 by shadowhive
slight addition

[shadowhive]

1 minute ago, RavenHawk said:

 

 

Every man woman and child? Wow. That sounds even worse.

[Ashotep]

3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

You noticed that Obama said that this was an act of terrorism and an act of hate.  Now that the Left has been hammering the hate angle and ignoring terrorism, how long do you suppose it’ll be before terrorism is completely dropped?  Then they’re be more pleas for tighter gun control, which we all know does not work.  All it does is disarm the law abiding populace.

 

I'm afraid we will get tougher guns laws out of this one and if Hillary becomes president it will be even worse than anything Obama does.  Among her many other plans for gun control Hillary wants anyone being investigated by the FBI denied the right to buy a gun.  When I read that I thought if your being investigated by the FBI you shouldn't be allowed to run for president either.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/clinton-wants-to-strip-constitutional-rights-of-anyone-fbi-investigates/

 

[Only_]

1 hour ago, and then said:

You're making as great an assumption as you claim of others.  The evidence reported by FBI directory Comey (probably the ONLY real professional on Obama's staff) shows that he made quite clear where his loyalties lay.  

Right. He ''pledged his loyalty'' to ISIS on a phone call to 911.

All I'm saying is that this isn't typical terrorism. It's not an organization planning and excuting attacks on U.S. soil. These are looney tunes and hateful people who are finding a higher purpose or cause in the religious propaganda published by jhiadists on the interwebz.

Edited June 13, 2016 by TruthSeeker_

[shadowhive]

1 minute ago, Ashotep said:

I'm afraid we will get tougher guns laws out of this one and if Hillary becomes president it will be even worse than anything Obama does.  Among her many other plans for gun control Hillary wants anyone being investigated by the FBI denied the right to buy a gun.  When I read that I thought if your being investigated by the FBI you shouldn't be allowed to run for president either.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/clinton-wants-to-strip-constitutional-rights-of-anyone-fbi-investigates/

 

How is that a bad thing exactly? It sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do.

[RavenHawk]

4 minutes ago, shadowhive said:

Every man woman and child? Wow. That sounds even worse.

That tells me you just don’t understand and I wouldn’t expect you to.  It’s called “Conviction”.  Those that don’t have it are the sheeple in life.  That’s only mean as an observation.

[Ashotep]

6 minutes ago, shadowhive said:

How is that a bad thing exactly? It sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do.

The FBI investigates a lot of people, hundreds of thousands, and many aren't found guilty of anything.  The problem with a law like this I can see it being abused. 

[shadowhive]

2 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

 

 

I don't lack conviction, it's just I don'tunderstand why owning a firearm is something worth of it. Certainly not a firearm that's military grade which is what this guy had. I mean he gunned down a room, killing and injuring over 100 people with a weapon he obtained legally. Where's the conviction for them? The conviction for their freedom to live without being murdered?

 

When you talk about every man woman and child, when and then talks about a million lives, I see people that don't value freedom. I see people that don't value human life. I see people that value weapons. I see people that would become as dangerous as this shooter was if someone threatened tot ake their precious guns away. That's what I see.

[RavenHawk]

9 minutes ago, Ashotep said:

I'm afraid we will get tougher guns laws out of this one and if Hillary becomes president it will be even worse than anything Obama does.  Among her many other plans for gun control Hillary wants anyone being investigated by the FBI denied the right to buy a gun.  When I read that I thought if your being investigated by the FBI you shouldn't be allowed to run for president either.

http://dailycaller.com/2016/06/13/clinton-wants-to-strip-constitutional-rights-of-anyone-fbi-investigates/

You  may unfortunately be right.  Anyone for any reason could be placed under investigation by the FBI.  Reasons could be expressing Conservative thought, just viewing a site that might be considered connected to a terrorist organization, being audited by the IRS, being a vet that believes in GOD, etc., etc.  There is no end to that list.

[GoldenWolf]

28 minutes ago, shadowhive said:

I don't lack conviction, it's just I don'tunderstand why owning a firearm is something worth of it.

I've noticed, a lot of people who own firearms where I live, are also the type who own and breed pit bulls to be as malicious as possible.  The only logical thing I can come up with is it makes them feel powerful.  Primitiveness.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Mystic Crusader

[+susieice]

9 hours ago, FLOMBIE said:

there is a difference between a terrorist organization acquiring (old) illegal guns from the black market and a single guy walking in a store and buying everything he needs. This is not a critique, it's just pointing out that it's not the same. Not even close. 

If someone wants to carry out an attack, they will find the means. Illegal guns aren't necessarily old. The attackers in Paris had some pretty mean firepower. They will always be available on the black market. You can buy just about anything on the black market if you got the bucks. 

[Baz Dane]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:28 AM, Leonardo said:

Could it be the young man was himself gay, but brought up in an environment of conservatism and repressive expectation to be hetero?

His act may not be a result of his ideology, but his anger and frustration brought about by repressing himself?

 

I didn't see any evidence for him being gay until this, BUT, perhaps Leo was on to something?...

- "The gunman who attacked a Florida LGBT nightclub had attended the club before the attack and had used a gay dating and chat app, witnesses said."

- "Kevin West, a regular at Pulse nightclub, said Omar Mateen messaged him on and off for a year before the shooting using the gay chat and dating app Jack’d."

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html

I guess we have to see ALL the evidence etc before we can say his true motivation.

Maybe his motivation was a result of both his ideology at conflict with his repressions? IF he was gay that is... He also may have been intending to use that app as a lure at some point, but changed his strategy to go to a bigger assault.

Maybe time will tell... or not.

 

 

[FLOMBIE]

4 minutes ago, susieice said:

If someone wants to carry out an attack, they will find the means. Illegal guns aren't necessarily old. The attackers in Paris had some pretty mean firepower. They will always be available on the black market. You can buy just about anything on the black market if you got the bucks. 

The attackers in Paris had old rifles that jammed quite a lot.

[Michelle]

3 hours ago, DingoLingo said:

heh well I can bring up Australia and New Zealand,

it works here.. quite well..

More guns and bigger arsenals than ever...

AS Australia marks 20 years since the Port Arthur massacre, guns still pose a massive threat to our nation.

There are more firearms in the country than ever before, more are imported, and owners are amassing larger arsenals in their homes.

Gun policy expert Philip Alpers, Adjunct Associate Professor at Sydney School of Public Health, warned this morning that boasts Australia has “solved the gun problem” are premature.

When John Howard introduced the National Firearms Act in 1996 after Martin Bryant’s devastating mass shooting, he swore we wouldn’t “go the American way”, and many believe he has been vindicated.

“People are so proud, in some cases, over-proud,” Prof Alpers told news.com.au. “They don’t realise there’s quite a lot of potential out there for gun-fuelled mayhem.”

Here’s why we’re not out of range just yet.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/more-guns-and-bigger-arsenals-than-ever-australias-not-out-of-range-yet/news-story/5ac9fd189627c27cee0edaebd20b4a55

[Jack Skellington]

5 hours ago, Leonardo said:

There are signs the theory holds merit. The repressive environment (as a young man in Islam he was expected to grow up hetero, have a wife and kids, etc), his abusive behaviour towards his first spouse (I haven't heard if he was abusive towards his second), his father reporting how he went ballistic when he saw two men kissing, that he deliberately chose a high-profile "gay" target (by that, I mean high profile among the gay community - not high-profile in the comprehensive sense.)

While not conclusive, these are signs that he perhaps had underlying issues with his own sexuality.

I think Leonardo might be a closet homosexual for suggesting it.

Isn't that the basis of your theory?  A hunch?

 

[Paranormal Panther]

4 minutes ago, susieice said:

If someone wants to carry out an attack, they will find the means. Illegal guns aren't necessarily old. The attackers in Paris had some pretty mean firepower. They will always be available on the black market. You can buy just about anything on the black market if you got the bucks. 

Prohibition proves your point, as does the drug trade. Of course, as we all know, gangsters adhere to strict gun control laws. 

[Michelle]

6 minutes ago, susieice said:

If someone wants to carry out an attack, they will find the means. Illegal guns aren't necessarily old. The attackers in Paris had some pretty mean firepower. They will always be available on the black market. You can buy just about anything on the black market if you got the bucks. 

Having a business in the ghetto I could lay my hands on one in less than thirty minutes, along with any drug you could ask for. After all of these years, you get to know the people who live in the neighborhood and they aren't shy about what they can supply you with.