Duke Wellington Posted June 17, 2016 #26 Share Posted June 17, 2016 39 minutes ago, hellwyr said: She is dead. Another example of the right-wing extremism on the rise. How long does Europe intend to ignore that. First "only" asylum shelters and immigrants were attacked. Now Universities and students get attacked all across Europe ( a lot of these "minor" incidents happened). Then we heard about a French guy who wanted to conduct a massacre. A terrorist act in Paris. Now a politician got stabbed. This is getting out of hand. Leadership is not about a politician deciding what they think are the right policies then imposing them onto the population. Jon Snow made that error. Its about serving the population instead. Leaders have to listen to what policies the population want then do a balancing act with the policies they choose to kept everyone happy (if possible) or at the minimum make no enemies. If I became a politician and started going around saying we should deport all immigrants how long would I have to wait until I got shot? Its the same for those heavily campaigning for pro-immigration polices, they make themselves targets for those who are crazy or have nothing to lose. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted June 17, 2016 #27 Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said: Leadership is not about a politician deciding what they think are the right policies then imposing them onto the population. Jon Snow made that error. Its about serving the population instead. Leaders have to listen to what policies the population want then do a balancing act with the policies they choose to kept everyone happy (if possible) or at the minimum make no enemies. If I became a politician and started going around saying we should deport all immigrants how long would I have to wait until I got shot? Its the same for those heavily campaigning for pro-immigration polices, they make themselves targets for those who are crazy or have nothing to lose. I don't believe so. I think these people are aware of the danger, but nevertheless they decide to stand their ground. There are people who support her stance and she is representing these people, that is democracy. Then there are people who are against her policy. That again is democracy. However, killing someone or threatening them is not. In general a lot of politicians or public figures who stand for immigration get death threats, rape threats and so on. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon these days. @john snow In my opinion it was not wrong what he did and there were people who supported him. The mistake of his was that he did not consider his opposition. He made light of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 17, 2016 #28 Share Posted June 17, 2016 in related news: Quote Suspected killer of British lawmaker had ties to neo-Nazi group, watchdog says LONDON — The man detained by police in connection with the killing of a rising star of British politics had long-standing ties to a U.S.-based neo-Nazi organization and, in the past, had ordered a how-to guide for assembling a homemade gun, according to a watchdog group that tracks extremist behavior. The revelation came as police on Friday continued to investigate the motive behind the killing of the British lawmaker, Jo Cox, who was stabbed and shot midday Thursday in an attack that stunned the nation and led to a suspension of the European Union referendum campaign just a week before the vote. Cox had been a strong advocate of an inclusive and multicultural Britain amid a wave of hostility toward immigrants that is helping to fuel the anti-E.U. campaign. Read more on The Washington Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted June 17, 2016 #29 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 25 minutes ago, hellwyr said: I don't believe so. I think these people are aware of the danger, but nevertheless they decide to stand their ground. There are people who support her stance and she is representing these people, that is democracy. Then there are people who are against her policy. That again is democracy. However, killing someone or threatening them is not. In general a lot of politicians or public figures who stand for immigration get death threats, rape threats and so on. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon these days. @john snow In my opinion it was not wrong what he did and there were people who supported him. The mistake of his was that he did not consider his opposition. He made light of it. To me the job of a politician is to represent the population, as best they can, in their constituency. If they engage in a strongly polarising topic like immigration or religion then they will make enemies. If they make enough enemies its only a matter of time before one of them Jon Snows them. Is killing them wrong? Of course it is, and I dont think you mean for your sentence to read that way. But I do think politicians need be trained to be more tactful and thoughtful so as to keep the number of enemies they make to a minimum. It is not exactly hard to say lets cut back immigration because its gone to far and at the same time lets make a serious and committed drive to reduce racism in our society. See what I did there. I thought about everyone and while I gave them policies which might not make them all happy I avoided making enemies. Edited June 17, 2016 by RabidMongoose 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted June 17, 2016 #30 Share Posted June 17, 2016 39 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said: To me the job of a politician is to represent the population, as best they can, in their constituency. If they engage in a strongly polarising topic like immigration or religion then they will make enemies. If they make enough enemies its only a matter of time before one of them Jon Snows them. Is killing them wrong? Of course it is, and I dont think you mean for your sentence to read that way. But I do think politicians need be trained to be more tactful and thoughtful so as to keep the number of enemies they make to a minimum. It is not exactly hard to say lets cut back immigration because its gone to far and at the same time lets make a serious and committed drive to reduce racism in our society. See what I did there. I thought about everyone and while I gave them policies which might not make them all happy I avoided making enemies. I understand what you mean. However, if you keep going to the center then it might happen that the center actually settles down somewhere far away from your initial position. It depends on what the society perceives as the center. For example some time ago a lot of topics which are discussed now would have been seen as right-extreme. But the society as whole moved to the right, so these topics are perceived as the center these days. Also in my opinion the problem with the immigration discussion is that it is based on emotional and racial arguments. Yes, it is okay to restrict immigration, but if you do so it should be based on real arguments and not because of some irrational fears and a self fulfilling prophecies. Also I think politicians should say what they think as comprehensive as possible, so the voter understands it. The voter on the other hand should be able to understand what democracy means. Anyway it is a complicated topic and probably the problem lies with the people and not politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted June 17, 2016 #31 Share Posted June 17, 2016 2 hours ago, Habitat said: Killer allegedly has a mental health issues history. This will rock the Brits. Why would knowing a person who committed this terrible crime suffers from mental illness "rock the Brits"? Most people I know over here have sympathy for those who suffer from such conditions. Most people I know over here find this situation sad and tragic, but aren't "rocked" by it. As for the guy being a "right wing extremist", I would suggest that to be such a thing one would have to be mentally competent enough to make the informed choice. I'm not so sure this guy was competent enough, and this is nothing more than the act of a tragically ill man. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted June 17, 2016 #32 Share Posted June 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, Leonardo said: Why would knowing a person who committed this terrible crime suffers from mental illness "rock the Brits"? Most people I know over here have sympathy for those who suffer from such conditions. Most people I know over here find this situation sad and tragic, but aren't "rocked" by it. As for the guy being a "right wing extremist", I would suggest that to be such a thing one would have to be mentally competent enough to make the informed choice. I'm not so sure this guy was competent enough, and this is nothing more than the act of a tragically ill man. This type of thing is rare in Britain, that is the shock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted June 17, 2016 #33 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Just now, Habitat said: This type of thing is rare in Britain, that is the shock. It's not unheard of to hear of stabbings or other attacks by people who have been diagnosed with mental illness, but not deemed severely ill enough to have been hospitalised. I think this sort of behaviour is rare anywhere, but again - not unheard of. No matter how good the public health system is over here (and I'm not claiming it is "good", or better than any other country) people inevitably slip through the cracks. It's just very sad that, in this instance, it had such a tragic outcome. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted June 17, 2016 #34 Share Posted June 17, 2016 what does speak against the theory it was an act of a mental ill person is the fact that he did not stab some random woman, but a person which stands for something he opposes. He might be mental ill but his motives were political. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted June 17, 2016 #35 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Just now, hellwyr said: what does speak against the theory it was an act of a mental ill person is the fact that he did not stab some random woman, but a person which stands for something he opposes. He might be mental ill but his motives were political. You are assuming he wasn't indirectly "persuaded" by right-wing literature as to who their "targets" are? Being mentally ill such that a person lacks competent responsibility does not mean that person is incapable of making choices, it just means that person isn't competent in making responsible and informed choices. However, I suggest this only as a alternate hypothesis to the immediate reaction involving anger and a hint of "revenge/retaliation/retribution" for what he did. Until he is properly assessed as to his mental competence then all we have is speculation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted June 17, 2016 #36 Share Posted June 17, 2016 14 minutes ago, hellwyr said: what does speak against the theory it was an act of a mental ill person is the fact that he did not stab some random woman, but a person which stands for something he opposes. He might be mental ill but his motives were political. The hatred towards a certain group of people is within the realm of a psychosis. And in that the affected person can be otherwise completely coherent. That could make the target choice plausible. But given his inclinations it could simply be politically motivated. We have to wait until the shrinks can get at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ouija ouija Posted June 17, 2016 #37 Share Posted June 17, 2016 7 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: Looks like he was a member of or connected to Britain First Party (Far Right) and has Jon Snowed her for her strong pro-immigration campaigning. 5 hours ago, hetrodoxly said: Though incredibly tragic and i give my deepest sympathy to her husband and children i've never seen so much media coverage on a murder before. Have 'Britain first' claimed credit for the murder? 'Britain First' have no knowledge of this man. Given his age, 53,(not a fanatical young 'hot head'), it may simply be that he has tired of Brits being pushed to the back of the queue .... tired of foreigners being the priority. He may simply think that 'Britain First' is a good, succinct slogan ..... which it is. I hope M.P.s and the government as a whole really wake up to what is going on here .... they have pushed the immigrant agenda too far and this is the start of the backlash. (But you just know that all they are going to think about is heightened security for themselves ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted June 17, 2016 #38 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Leonardo said: You are assuming he wasn't indirectly "persuaded" by right-wing literature as to who their "targets" are? Being mentally ill such that a person lacks competent responsibility does not mean that person is incapable of making choices, it just means that person isn't competent in making responsible and informed choices. However, I suggest this only as a alternate hypothesis to the immediate reaction involving anger and a hint of "revenge/retaliation/retribution" for what he did. Until he is properly assessed as to his mental competence then all we have is speculation. A mentally competent individual is responsible for his/her own actions. Watching the videos of her on the news she seemed to have a pleasant enough personality and there is talk of her murder being motivated by racism and hate. It could easily have been the other way around and an ordinary UKIP councillor getting assassinated by someone with far-left views. I think the lesson of the day is if you are campaigning on something controversial and polarising to segments of the population then you need to take adequate security precautions. Better still, find a way to keep everyone happy after all representing a whole population is better than representing minorities. Edited June 17, 2016 by RabidMongoose 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted June 17, 2016 #39 Share Posted June 17, 2016 35 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said: A mentally competent individual is responsible for his/her own actions. Watching the videos of her on the news she seemed to have a pleasant enough personality and there is talk of her murder being motivated by racism and hate. It could easily have been the other way around and an ordinary UKIP councillor getting assassinated by someone with far-left views. I think the lesson of the day is if you are campaigning on something controversial and polarising to segments of the population then you need to take adequate security precautions. Better still, find a way to keep everyone happy after all representing a whole population is better than representing minorities. I was waiting for someone to say "she brought it on herself by supporting Immigrants", and you've come the closest yet. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted June 17, 2016 #40 Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 40 minutes ago, ouija ouija said: 'Britain First' have no knowledge of this man. Given his age, 53,(not a fanatical young 'hot head'), it may simply be that he has tired of Brits being pushed to the back of the queue .... tired of foreigners being the priority. He may simply think that 'Britain First' is a good, succinct slogan ..... which it is. I hope M.P.s and the government as a whole really wake up to what is going on here .... they have pushed the immigrant agenda too far and this is the start of the backlash. (But you just know that all they are going to think about is heightened security for themselves ) And I never imagined it from you, but you've come close as well. Edited June 17, 2016 by Otto von Pickelhaube 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ouija ouija Posted June 17, 2016 #41 Share Posted June 17, 2016 13 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said: And I never imagined it from you, but you've come close as well. Truth is unpalatable at times ...... doesn't make it any less true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted June 17, 2016 #42 Share Posted June 17, 2016 12 minutes ago, ouija ouija said: Truth is unpalatable at times ...... doesn't make it any less true. So it is better to shut up and give in to terrorists instead of speaking your mind and standing for what you believe in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ouija ouija Posted June 17, 2016 #43 Share Posted June 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, hellwyr said: So it is better to shut up and give in to terrorists instead of speaking your mind and standing for what you believe in? Sorry, you've confused me. How does your comment relate to mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted June 17, 2016 #44 Share Posted June 17, 2016 37 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said: And I never imagined it from you, but you've come close as well. 23 minutes ago, ouija ouija said: Truth is unpalatable at times ...... doesn't make it any less true. Inside Britain a majority of the population is against mass immigration because its going too far. While I don't condone the murdering of politicians neither do I agree with the subversion of the peoples Democracy. In all honestly I expect a revolution to occur somewhere in the EU over the next 20 years as our cousins on the continent have got the same problems going on as we do. What happens if someone had popped Merkel off instead for flooding Germany with Syrians? Would the Germans be sat there pretending the elephant in the room doesn't exist? Would they instead be expressing shock and disgust that a political leader subverting their Democracy on immigration has been assassinated for it? Or will it come as no surprise that someone, somewhere, snapped and did her in? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 17, 2016 #45 Share Posted June 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Leonardo said: You are assuming he wasn't indirectly "persuaded" by right-wing literature as to who their "targets" are? Being mentally ill such that a person lacks competent responsibility does not mean that person is incapable of making choices, it just means that person isn't competent in making responsible and informed choices. However, I suggest this only as a alternate hypothesis to the immediate reaction involving anger and a hint of "revenge/retaliation/retribution" for what he did. Until he is properly assessed as to his mental competence then all we have is speculation. Yesterday I immediately suspected a conspiracy to damage the Leave campaign. After watching this video I have begun to think differently. The neighbors and eyewitnesses tend to believe he is mentally ill. Also, he did not initially attack her. She stepped between him and another man who were scuffling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted June 17, 2016 #46 Share Posted June 17, 2016 Lets not make this incredibly perverse act by a perverse mindset actually be used as a political pawn in the referendum. Too late for the Daily Star headline that says a Brexiter caused this. No-one on this side of the debate would ever condone or celebrate such a disgusting and depraved act. His contacts with a South African neo-Nazi group are well documented, and yet the *****-footing neo-Liberalists in this country would never let his human rights be affronted by detention, indeed I doubt that he will even be detained for any reasonable length of time because he will appeal to the European Court of Justice for infringement of his Human Rights.... No, this disgusting piece of S*** will be given every opportunity to live a life that he has denied to Jo. Angry? doesn't even get close to how I feel.... let none of us try to make political capital out of this tragic event (I expect more from UM'ers) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted June 17, 2016 #47 Share Posted June 17, 2016 8 minutes ago, keithisco said: Lets not make this incredibly perverse act by a perverse mindset actually be used as a political pawn in the referendum. Too late for the Daily Star headline that says a Brexiter caused this. No-one on this side of the debate would ever condone or celebrate such a disgusting and depraved act. His contacts with a South African neo-Nazi group are well documented, and yet the *****-footing neo-Liberalists in this country would never let his human rights be affronted by detention, indeed I doubt that he will even be detained for any reasonable length of time because he will appeal to the European Court of Justice for infringement of his Human Rights.... No, this disgusting piece of S*** will be given every opportunity to live a life that he has denied to Jo. Angry? doesn't even get close to how I feel.... let none of us try to make political capital out of this tragic event (I expect more from UM'ers) And the mirror 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hetrodoxly Posted June 17, 2016 #48 Share Posted June 17, 2016 7 hours ago, ouija ouija said: 'Britain First' have no knowledge of this man. Given his age, 53,(not a fanatical young 'hot head'), it may simply be that he has tired of Brits being pushed to the back of the queue .... tired of foreigners being the priority. He may simply think that 'Britain First' is a good, succinct slogan ..... which it is. I hope M.P.s and the government as a whole really wake up to what is going on here .... they have pushed the immigrant agenda too far and this is the start of the backlash. (But you just know that all they are going to think about is heightened security for themselves ) My post was a preemptive strike, i heard the 'he shouted Britain first' on BBC radio 4 the news reader saying "someone told their reporter that he shouted Britain first before he killed her" that someone gets about he regularly gives information to the BBC, has this now been substantiated? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpandMyMind Posted June 18, 2016 #49 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Quote Thomas Mair gave his name as "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain" when he appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court. BBC I think this case is similar to the Orlando shooting. Both were terrorist attacks (though the American shooting was more of a hate crime I'd say), with neither of the attackers being right in the head or affiliated with the organisations they claimed to represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Posted June 18, 2016 #50 Share Posted June 18, 2016 17 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: Inside Britain a majority of the population is against mass immigration because its going too far. While I don't condone the murdering of politicians neither do I agree with the subversion of the peoples Democracy. In all honestly I expect a revolution to occur somewhere in the EU over the next 20 years as our cousins on the continent have got the same problems going on as we do. What happens if someone had popped Merkel off instead for flooding Germany with Syrians? Would the Germans be sat there pretending the elephant in the room doesn't exist? Would they instead be expressing shock and disgust that a political leader subverting their Democracy on immigration has been assassinated for it? Or will it come as no surprise that someone, somewhere, snapped and did her in? Nope not revolution but civil war. You claim the majority is against mass immigration. The truth is that a big part of the population don't even perceive it as mass immigration and they are against the rise of right-extremism. Thus, the more likely scenario will be a civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now