MP Jo Cox injured amid shooting reports

[Duke Wellington]

2 minutes ago, hellwyr said:

Nope not revolution but civil war. You claim the majority is against mass immigration. The truth is that a big part of the population don't even perceive it as mass immigration and they are against the rise of right-extremism. Thus, the more likely scenario will be a civil war.

I think the breakdown from the last poll I saw was 65% against mass immigration.

[Habitat]

4 minutes ago, hellwyr said:

Nope not revolution but civil war. You claim the majority is against mass immigration. The truth is that a big part of the population don't even perceive it as mass immigration and they are against the rise of right-extremism. Thus, the more likely scenario will be a civil war.

Nearly as scary as those Brit soccer hooligans ? 

[hetrodoxly]

4 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

BBC

I think this case is similar to the Orlando shooting. Both were terrorist attacks (though the American shooting was more of a hate crime I'd say), with neither of the attackers being right in the head or affiliated with the organisations they claimed to represent.

Interesting, what group did he claim to represent?

[Torchwood]

Britain First I think- (who I'd define as not the sort of chaps I'd invite round for tea) or at least, somebody claimed they'd heard him shouting support to them. Not sure if that actually happened though, and I believe they claimed they had no idea who he was. 

[ExpandMyMind]

3 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Interesting, what group did he claim to represent?

I don't take much interest in it all, these days, but it's one of those far-right 'Britain first' groups if I remember rightly. Might even be called that. There are rumours that he had 'ties' to one as well. But 'ties' doesn't mean he necessarily represents them.

[Space Commander Travis]

12 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I don't take much interest in it all, these days, but it's one of those far-right 'Britain first' groups if I remember rightly. Might even be called that. There are rumours that he had 'ties' to one as well. But 'ties' doesn't mean he necessarily represents them.

Very similar to Omar Mateen; he mentioned that he was "doing it for ISIS", so instantly he became part of the Great Islamic Jihadist War against Civilisation. The Right, on the other hand, are very keen to shrug off any suggestion that Mair may have any connection with any organised group (insofar as you can call any of these lots 'organised'). 

 

(According to Wikipedia, incidentally, he had 'links' to the U.S.-based National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group )

[Space Commander Travis]

On 6/17/2016 at 6:09 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Inside Britain a majority of the population is against mass immigration because its going too far.

While I don't condone the murdering of politicians neither do I agree with the subversion of the peoples Democracy. In all honestly I expect a revolution to occur somewhere in the EU over the next 20 years as our cousins on the continent have got the same problems going on as we do.

What happens if someone had popped Merkel off instead for flooding Germany with Syrians? Would the Germans be sat there pretending the elephant in the room doesn't exist? Would they instead be expressing shock and disgust that a political leader subverting their Democracy on immigration has been assassinated for it? Or will it come as no surprise that someone, somewhere, snapped and did her in?

 

 

 

What was it that started off this flood of Alien Islamic Rapist Gangs Marauding across Europe? The ********* imbecility of the leaders of the West destabilizing their country, as well as Libya,and Iraq before that. You know how much Cameron was clamouring to strike against the Vile Assad Regime. it's the idiotic imbecility of "Western Leaders" that allowed it to happen in the first place. Don't you think Europe has some responsibility here? 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Otto von Pickelhaube

[Space Commander Travis]

--

Edited June 19, 2016 by Otto von Pickelhaube

[Space Commander Travis]

This blinking confusing quote system is confusing me now.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Otto von Pickelhaube

[Wickian]

Assassinating political rivals is the first step to a civil war.

[Space Commander Travis]

Assassinating political rivals? So he's an assassin now? It's just the same as with Mateen; people do seem very keen to dignify these mentally unstable nutcases as "fighting for some cause" rather than just what they are, which is nutcases. 

[Wickian]

2 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Assassinating political rivals? So he's an assassin now? It's just the same as with Mateen; people do seem very keen to dignify these mentally unstable nutcases as "fighting for some cause" rather than just what they are, which is nutcases. 

Even if he was only doing it for his own deluded reasons, killing someone to hurt a political agenda opposed to the killer's is an assassination.  Who's to say some nutjob on the other side of the issue won't retaliate making the whole thing escalate?  It's very, very unlikely, but still possible.

[Duke Wellington]

3 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

 

What was it that started off this flood of Alien Islamic Rapist Gangs Marauding across Europe? The ********* imbecility of the leaders of the West destabilizing their country, as well as Libya,and Iraq before that. You know how much Cameron was clamouring to strike against the Vile Assad Regime. it's the idiotic imbecility of "Western Leaders" that allowed it to happen in the first place. Don't you think Europe has some responsibility here? 

With the issues Germany has been having its an inability to acknowledge that men brought up in different cultures have different attitudes towards women. This discussion cannot be had because like all conversations about the negative impacts of immigration there is a drive to close them down as racism.

 

 

 

 

[+ouija ouija]

Some posters here have been referring to Mair as 'mentally unstable'/a 'nutjob', but when people are squeezed and crushed so hard by the ruling classes who have all the power, it seems to me that far from being a mental aberration, it is, in fact, a very natural and not unexpected response.

[Duke Wellington]

30 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Some posters here have been referring to Mair as 'mentally unstable'/a 'nutjob', but when people are squeezed and crushed so hard by the ruling classes who have all the power, it seems to me that far from being a mental aberration, it is, in fact, a very natural and not unexpected response.

Our current models of Democracy are poor because our leaders don't use two-way relationships to create policies (although they try to claim and give out the impression that they do).

If we used the internet to expand the number of MPs to everyone in the country then it results in the same outcome as two-way relationships. But I don't think it would ever happen because the pro-immigration camp (as an example) would try to prevent the majority getting the anti-immigration policies they wanted. Those elected would try hard to stop our Democracy being expanded in that way as they would lose their power and control to implement the policies that they wanted.

Edited June 19, 2016 by RabidMongoose

[ExpandMyMind]

5 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Very similar to Omar Mateen; he mentioned that he was "doing it for ISIS", so instantly he became part of the Great Islamic Jihadist War against Civilisation. The Right, on the other hand, are very keen to shrug off any suggestion that Mair may have any connection with any organised group (insofar as you can call any of these lots 'organised'). 

 

(According to Wikipedia, incidentally, he had 'links' to the U.S.-based National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group )

The double standards with such cases are clear to see for all except those who are part of them, for some reason.

And yeah, I think that might have been the group I read about that he supposedly had 'links' to. According to the regularly applied logic, that now means that they carried out the attack.

Edited June 19, 2016 by ExpandMyMind

[Space Commander Travis]

43 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Some posters here have been referring to Mair as 'mentally unstable'/a 'nutjob', but when people are squeezed and crushed so hard by the ruling classes who have all the power, it seems to me that far from being a mental aberration, it is, in fact, a very natural and not unexpected response.

So now must understand him. He was crushed and oppressed by the ruling classes. 

Anyone want to say the same about Omar Mateen? No, I thought not. 

[questionmark]

3 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

So now must understand him. He was crushed and oppressed by the ruling classes. 

Anyone want to say the same about Omar Mateen? No, I thought not. 

Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder, theirs are terrorists, our are freedom fighters... or at least oppressed rebels.

Why are you surprised?

 

[+ouija ouija]

3 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

So now must understand him. He was crushed and oppressed by the ruling classes. 

Anyone want to say the same about Omar Mateen? No, I thought not. 

Firstly, I wonder why you(and many other posters), have such a fear of understanding people and their impulses to action? Surely a better understanding would help prevent such incidents?  Just because the roots of oppression go back hundreds, thousands of years doesn't mean we shouldn't face up to them, instead of looking no further than the current aggressor and putting the blame solely on him.

I would say Mateen was oppressed and crushed not by the ruling classes but by his culture and religion. If he was a homosexual, how could he ever tell anyone? How awful to be living such a lie every day of his life ..... how awful he must have felt after each homosexual encounter, always wondering when(not if), he would be found out. Feeling obliged to be married and producing children. I don't condone his lashing out at his spouse, but I can see why he did it. Did you notice how his father was supportive of him, praising him, until it was suggested that he was homosexual? Suddenly he disowned him.

[questionmark]

12 minutes ago, ouija ouija said:

Firstly, I wonder why you(and many other posters), have such a fear of understanding people and their impulses to action? Surely a better understanding would help prevent such incidents?  Just because the roots of oppression go back hundreds, thousands of years doesn't mean we shouldn't face up to them, instead of looking no further than the current aggressor and putting the blame solely on him.

I would say Mateen was oppressed and crushed not by the ruling classes but by his culture and religion. If he was a homosexual, how could he ever tell anyone? How awful to be living such a lie every day of his life ..... how awful he must have felt after each homosexual encounter, always wondering when(not if), he would be found out. Feeling obliged to be married and producing children. I don't condone his lashing out at his spouse, but I can see why he did it. Did you notice how his father was supportive of him, praising him, until it was suggested that he was homosexual? Suddenly he disowned him.

And right wing brain maxturbation does not oppress a person in a free society?

You are doing exactly what you accuse Muslims of doing: scream about those you don't like  and be an apologists for what you consider "true values".

 

[+ouija ouija]

12 minutes ago, questionmark said:

And right wing brain maxturbation does not oppress a person in a free society?

You are doing exactly what you accuse Muslims of doing: scream about those you don't like  and be an apologists for what you consider "true values".

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand your reply, please could you explain further? I don't understand your first sentence at all, and how am I 'doing exactly what you accuse Muslims of doing'?

[Duke Wellington]

13 minutes ago, questionmark said:

And right wing brain maxturbation does not oppress a person in a free society?

You are doing exactly what you accuse Muslims of doing: scream about those you don't like  and be an apologists for what you consider "true values".

 

Has anybody ever tried to attack the UKIP leader? The answer is yes, there is a nice long list of attempted attacks against him which have failed because he has minders.

Switch it around and you have labour MPs without minders campaigning on the very same polarising topics but taking the opposite stance.

[questionmark]

Just now, RabidMongoose said:

Has anybody ever tried to attack the UKIP leader? The answer is yes, there is a nice long list of attempted attacks against him which have failed because he has minders.

Switch it around and you have labour MPs without minders campaigning on the very same polarising topics but taking the opposite stance.

So what are you saying, that they have done it so we get to do it too? That is the best terrorism apology I have heard yet.

 

[Space Commander Travis]

3 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Firstly, I wonder why you(and many other posters), have such a fear of understanding people and their impulses to action? Surely a better understanding would help prevent such incidents?  Just because the roots of oppression go back hundreds, thousands of years doesn't mean we shouldn't face up to them, instead of looking no further than the current aggressor and putting the blame solely on him.

I would say Mateen was oppressed and crushed not by the ruling classes but by his culture and religion. If he was a homosexual, how could he ever tell anyone? How awful to be living such a lie every day of his life ..... how awful he must have felt after each homosexual encounter, always wondering when(not if), he would be found out. Feeling obliged to be married and producing children. I don't condone his lashing out at his spouse, but I can see why he did it. Did you notice how his father was supportive of him, praising him, until it was suggested that he was homosexual? Suddenly he disowned him.

So you're saying we should in fact try to understand the motivations behind Islamic criminals (or if we want to make them sound more glamorous than they deserve, Terrorists),and not just lump them all in as part of the Great Islamic Fundamentalist War against Civilsation ? Well, I'm glad to hear it, and yes, perhaps that is an approach that might be more fruitful than just fearing them as an incomprehensible alien menace. People often seem to find the very idea so outrageous that they don't even want to believe that it is possible. 

[+ouija ouija]

31 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

So you're saying we should in fact try to understand the motivations behind Islamic criminals (or if we want to make them sound more glamorous than they deserve, Terrorists),and not just lump them all in as part of the Great Islamic Fundamentalist War against Civilsation ? Well, I'm glad to hear it, and yes, perhaps that is an approach that might be more fruitful than just fearing them as an incomprehensible alien menace. People often seem to find the very idea so outrageous that they don't even want to believe that it is possible. 

Both situations can exist at the same time: Islamic criminals who are perfectly able to choose a law-abiding lifestyle but choose the opposite, are exactly the same people who have thousands of years of cultural/religious history weighing on them(who are they to stand up to that?), and are not brave enough to speak out and take the consequences(who would?!). They are exactly the same people who have had their countries brutally invaded by western powers and are now retaliating.

I am more than happy to accept them as 'an incomprehensible alien menace' .... I wish our leaders had accepted them as such and left well alone instead of poking a big stick into that particular hornets' nest. People of different nationalities are exactly that ....different  ...... and those differences run very deep and are as likely to be incompatible as compatible. Which is why I find it so frightening that we have invited so many wolves to live in our sheep pen.

I think you expect too much of individuals. 99.9% of the world's population, when put under pressure, will simply do what the rest of the herd does ..... they won't want to stand out.