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LucidElement

Creationism Vs Evolution

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GlitterRose
Just now, questionmark said:

You can teach science or even religion and assess with that how well you pupil learned to reason (again the Jesuit method).

But a science class is not teaching religion, and it's not a critical thinking/logic class, either. And it's not a debate class. It's a biology class. And it can't be a biology class without teaching biology.

It seems like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. 

No one is saying that in history class they should spend equal time entertaining the idea that the holocaust wasn't real. Is anyone accusing them of hindering critical thinking over that? No. Of course not. It's not their job to refute every bogus idea in the history of the world. It's their job to teach actual history. 

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questionmark
Just now, ChaosRose said:

But a science class is not teaching religion, and it's not a critical thinking/logic class, either. And it's not a debate class. It's a biology class. And it can't be a biology class without teaching biology.

It seems like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. 

No one is saying that in history class they should spend equal time entertaining the idea that the holocaust wasn't real. Is anyone accusing them of hindering critical thinking over that? No. Of course not. It's not their job to refute every bogus idea in the history of the world. It's their job to teach actual history. 

There us no difference what you teach, either your pupil understands it (reasoning) or your student memorizes it. There are no other alternatives.

When kids don't reason they will not understand math, which will lead to not understanding physics and chemistry and certainly not biology. And there is where you have the classical dilemma that sooner or later your student will have to choose between two memorized truths...and you suddenly have a creationist biologist or brain surgeon and wonder how that happened.

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GlitterRose
3 minutes ago, questionmark said:

There us no difference what you teach, either your pupil understands it (reasoning) or your student memorizes it. There are no other alternatives.

When kids don't reason they will not understand math, which will lead to not understanding physics and chemistry and certainly not biology. And there is where you have the classical dilemma that sooner or later your student will have to choose between two memorized truths...and you suddenly have a creationist biologist or brain surgeon and wonder how that happened.

I'm not saying no one should ever teach critical thinking skills. I'm saying biology class is biology class. It shouldn't be debunking creationism class, because then it's not biology class anymore. 

If you want to take issue that there aren't more critical thinking skills classes early on...you might have an argument. But it still doesn't bolster the idea of debunking creationism in biology class. 

Edited by ChaosRose
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Kenemet
3 hours ago, LucidElement said:

What points on each side are seen as a debate? For example, if you are a religious person, there is no stopping someone from believing that God created everything in the universe. Furthermore, if someone said to you, dinosaurs did exsist because God put them there, how would an evolutionist argue that? People will say Adam and Eve were the first people and I read somewhere that they would have existed around 3,000 BC.. but weren't the ancient Egyptians / Sumerians before them? How about temples like Ggantija or Puma Punku, even Gobekli Tepe (9000-1000B.C) ... Just things that baffle me.

 

 

Well, I volunteer in a paleontology lab and I've seen the different animals over time.  

 

What I see in the arguments are people who have been TOLD what evolution is ... but have no real idea of what it is.  Egypt, for instance, has nothing to do with evolution since the species was already evolved over 100,000 years before that country was united.

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StarMountainKid

I once worked with a young woman and I used the word 'evolution' in some other context than we're discussing it here. She was one of those who went to church twice a week. She looked at me and screamed "evolution is a lie!" and stalked off. After that she wouldn't speak to me for two weeks.

I think she might have been a creationist.

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seeder
5 hours ago, LucidElement said:

 How about temples like Ggantija or Puma Punku, even Gobekli Tepe (9000-1000B.C) ... Just things that baffle me.

 

 

 

puma punku is only about 1500 years old...

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XenoFish

If I was god, I'd setup the whole of creation to self maintaining. It would create itself from the constant changes, the death and birth of stars, even life. Earth wouldn't be the first or last petri dish.

Black holes would be my recycling bin. 

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Tatetopa

Well, creation is a beautiful story and metaphor, but it has some problems if you take it literally.  Start early, who is it that Cain and Abel married to begat all of those descendants?

Many religious people are now accepting of evolution and climate change.  It really doesn't need to negate divinity.  The creator could easily have used physics and biology if he is omnipotent.  To deny that is like saying God can bowl, get a strike every time, but he can't master anything as complex as billiards or chess. That doesn't seem reasonable for the divinity that created the universe.    Now some would say that evolution is not in the Bible. But neither are electric lights and internal combustion engines.   Most of us don't have a problem with those.  The Bible is about how people should treat each other; not an instruction manual for how to build the earth.

 

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seeder
9 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

  The Bible is about how people should treat each other; not an instruction manual for how to build the earth.

 

 

But the Bible spelt out HOW we supposedly got here. If it didnt do that it couldnt be criticized so much

like the cops say, "You dont have to say anything...but anything you do say, may be used as evidence against you"   (Uk anyway)

So the Bible stories 'said' how God did it...... and now....we can use that evidence against....the story

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LucidElement
5 hours ago, seeder said:

I have always STUMPED creationists with this... 

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LucidElement

This may be far fetched but who were to say Adam and eve were human like and not animal like? Couldn't they have been hairy? Ect...

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seeder
6 minutes ago, LucidElement said:

This may be far fetched but who were to say Adam and eve were human like and not animal like? Couldn't they have been hairy? Ect...

 

Allegedly God made man in HIS image....

Maybe we had a hairy animal God?

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crookedspiral

Creationism is dead outside of the U.S and it doesn't make any sense scientifically.

The scientific hypothesis that posits a designer is known as Intelligent Design (ID) and IMO is a viable candidate to Neo-Darwinism.

4jau1l.jpg

Edited by TruthSeeker_

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Stubbly_Dooright
7 hours ago, seeder said:

I have always STUMPED creationists with this... but lets see how believers can answer me....

why do humans share their DNA with Chimps? At 99%?

Why do we have canine teeth, and forward looking eyes...like other predators?

Why do we.... have a coccyx, known as the tail bone, in common with some other animals?

Why...do we have finger and toe nails?

Why do goosebumps....make our hair stand on end? In certain places of course...

Why...are some of us still HAIRY?

Hairy+MAN+%282%29.jpg

I tend to suffer from various sinus situations. I have the headache and congestion a lot. In the process of getting to know, why it happens to me, I have done some research. Now, I found out, from my personal research, that our sinuses are situated in a way in our heads, that were there to drain. The thing is, they are formed in a way for them to drain easily when we are on all fours. 

So, in essence, our sinuses haven't caught up to our evolving bodies yet. 

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Michelle
53 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Creationism is dead outside of the U.S

:lol: You don't get out much do you? Ireland has the largest Christian population in the world, but you don't hear about them in the news.

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, Michelle said:

:lol: You don't get out much do you? Ireland has the largest Christian population in the world, but you don't hear about them in the news.

I think that would be well wide of the mark. The entire population is less than 5 million.

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crookedspiral
14 minutes ago, Michelle said:

:lol: You don't get out much do you? Ireland has the largest Christian population in the world, but you don't hear about them in the news.

Ok fair point. Northern Ireland does have it's shair of creationists. But I think in modern, educated countries this is mostly dead. Intelligent Design makes a lot more sense these days. Theistic evolution is another way to interpret Darwinism according to theistic beliefs.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
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Michelle
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I think that would be well wide of the mark. The entire population is less than 5 million.

It's still a far cry to say creationism is dead outside of the US. It doesn't even take into account Muslims.

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Habitat
Just now, Michelle said:

It's still a far cry to say creationism is dead outside of the US. It doesn't even take into account Muslims.

The USA is almost alone in being a strong-hold of fundamentalist type Christianity, amongst developed nations, in Australia, a country very similar in many ways to to the US culturally, it is very much on the fringe. Canada I don't know.

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Rlyeh
10 hours ago, LucidElement said:

What points on each side are seen as a debate? For example, if you are a religious person, there is no stopping someone from believing that God created everything in the universe. Furthermore, if someone said to you, dinosaurs did exsist because God put them there, how would an evolutionist argue that? People will say Adam and Eve were the first people and I read somewhere that they would have existed around 3,000 BC.. but weren't the ancient Egyptians / Sumerians before them? How about temples like Ggantija or Puma Punku, even Gobekli Tepe (9000-1000B.C) ... Just things that baffle me.

The evolutionary theory is derived from scientific evidence and research. So I'd simply ask where is the evidence God put dinosaurs on earth?

From personal experience arguing with a creationist is one of the most painful pointless activities anyone could do, and not surprising few scientists will debate them anymore.

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eight bits

Intelligent Design is creationism. Theistic evolution is also creationism, with the honesty to name the supposed designer and the candor to admit that the quality of "His designs" is an embarrassment.

Evolution by natural selection is just what it says: by natural selection, not by supernatural selection. Accept no substitutes.

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questionmark
5 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I tend to suffer from various sinus situations. I have the headache and congestion a lot. In the process of getting to know, why it happens to me, I have done some research. Now, I found out, from my personal research, that our sinuses are situated in a way in our heads, that were there to drain. The thing is, they are formed in a way for them to drain easily when we are on all fours. 

So, in essence, our sinuses haven't caught up to our evolving bodies yet. 

And besides our sinuses there are the intervertebral disks (my favorite) that are designed for a tetrapod... yet we are bipeds. Which either tells us that the omniscient God either is a blunderer or (should He/She exist) had nothing to do with it.

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questionmark

in related news:

Quote

Why bad ideas refuse to die

In January 2016, the rapper BoB took to Twitter to tell his fans that the Earth is really flat. “A lot of people are turned off by the phrase ‘flat earth’,” he acknowledged, “but there’s no way u can see all the evidence and not know … grow up.” At length the astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson joined in the conversation, offering friendly corrections to BoB’s zany proofs of non-globism, and finishing with a sarcastic compliment: “Being five centuries regressed in your reasoning doesn’t mean we all can’t still like your music.”

Actually, it’s a lot more than five centuries regressed. Contrary to what we often hear, people didn’t think the Earth was flat right up until Columbus sailed to the Americas. In ancient Greece, the philosophers Pythagoras and Parmenides had already recognised that the Earth was spherical. Aristotle pointed out that you could see some stars in Egypt and Cyprus that were not visible at more northerly latitudes, and also that the Earth casts a curved shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse. The Earth, he concluded with impeccable logic, must be round.

 

Read more on The Guardian

 

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LucidElement

So if man came from animals (Evolution belief) where did the animals come from? For example, everything had to come from something right?? almost like what came first, the fly or the larvae?

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Doug1029
15 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

Again...biology class isn't about teaching debate skills. It's about teaching biology. You certainly can teach how to do research, but that doesn't need to include debunking non-research. 

All science classes, by necessity, use reasoning skills.  Those aren't the same as debating skills.  And research always involves reasoning:  which statistical model to use is based on the reasoning and the wrong model can lead to the wrong conclusion.  That's especially embarrassing if it's a reviewer who discovers the mistake, or worse yet, your mistake gets published where everybody can see it.

As far as debunking creationism:  give the students the reasoning skills and let them do it.  Don't waste class time on more than one or two examples.

 

I think you are confusing science with "facts" taught in grade school science classes.  Science is a reasoning process and a way of looking at truth and the world.  Your comments suggest you would teach science like you would teach religion and that would be turning science into religion - something we don't really want to do, either.

Doug

Edited by Doug1029

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