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LucidElement

Creationism Vs Evolution

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ShadowSot
22 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Yes he did everyone in his ministry were  mostly of  women.

Not really, and none of his disciples were. 

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MWoo7
17 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

claim to find documents. Create support, ignore when people can actually travel to these foreign places and can't find what was claimed.

Could be truth in that.

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back to earth
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

That's why Jesus added and said  only one  wife,  so men or kings  won't  have to suffer the consequences :) Women today in the sexual revolution  are only equal to what was wrong in men in the first place:)

Wow !    modern liberated women are only equal  to what is wrong with a man ???     :huh:

You are a woman yourself , right ?

( psssst ... BTE ... a christian woman   !  ) 

Oh yeah ..... I forgot about that bit for a moment there . 

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back to earth
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

 

I see... these are whose words exactly ? 

St Issa ... when touring Nepal     written up by   Nicolas Notovitch published a book called The Unknown Life of Christ. He was a Russian doctor who journeyed extensively throughout Afghanistan, India, and Tibet.  ... Notovitch learned, while he was there, that there existed ancient records of the life of Jesus Christ. In the course of his visit at the great convent, he located a Tibetan translation of the legend and carefully noted in his carnet de voyage over two hundred verses from the curious document known as "The Life of St. Issa."  Which occurred in India .....

 

what, the  jesus in India trip is it now ? 

When he returned to the western world there was much controversy as to the authenticity of the document. He was accused of creating a hoax and was ridiculed as an imposter.

yet it cites one single '  Swami Abhedananda ' as being convinced by it 

" ... Roerich quotes legends which have the estimated antiquity of many centuries  "   -   estimated  ? 

Edited by back to earth

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back to earth
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

Yes he did everyone in his ministry were  mostly of  women.

:rolleyes:

Who were also only as good as their men's faults ? 

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back to earth
1 hour ago, ShadowSot said:

Right. Not been verified since then and probably part of the large number of pious frauds. 

 General trope: go somewhere foreign, claim to find documents. Create support, ignore when people can actually travel to these foreign places and can't find what was claimed.

Well, it was in  ' Mysterious Tibet '   ;)  

( well, back then it was pretty mysterious )    ..... where ... according to Lobsang Rampa , the inner walls of the monastery were painted with red and black stripes .  

 

 

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Mr Walker

A general reflection on the relevance of the bible's message  to women.

Doesn't anyone find it strange that the bible appeals more to women, past and present, than men (look at  the composition of almost ANY church anywhere in the world)

Isnt it  strange, if it is so unfair and misogynistic, that women have always been the most devoted and strongest followers of christ and christianity?  

 When we think on it, we should not be surprised. Christianity is a religion of liberation and empowerment, of equality and  advancement, It is the religion of the poor, the oppressed, the  powerless  etc  it gives hope and teaches how to create a sense of power within a person which cannot be taken away by any one. 

And thus, of course, historically  it appeals to women. It's message also appeals to the more spiritual and compassionate nature of women  It appeals to women who lose their children and mourn for that loss. (in the past infant motlity rates were as high as 80% Ie only about 20% of children survived to reproductive age with most dying very young. child birth was the most common cause of death n women   thus a promise of resurrection means MORE to a mother and a woman in those times, than to most men

Historically women could not live or survive without a mans protection. The bible enforced and enshrined a man's duty to maintain that   protection . One could not simply abandon or walk away from  a woman once married.   Times change, the relationship between men and women changes and the biblical message changes. 

  My wife is a biblical christian, yet one of the most liberated and empowered women i know She is freed from any control i might want to have over her (lol) by the bible, which empowers her as an individual, to an equal position alongside me and demands that i love her, honour her, respect her, and care for her, as long as i live   Religion has long offered women one of the few levers of control over men.

Yes some men have used it to oppress women, and yet in general women do not see it that way.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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LucidElement
On 4/6/2017 at 1:01 PM, papageorge1 said:

My thought on the 'Creationism vs Evolution' is both. When I think of our DNA for example I strongly think there is intelligent design in the universe and perhaps that can be called 'Creationism'. It's unfortunate that in modern debate that the word 'Creationism' is associated with the material in Genesis.  It is also unfortunate to me that we are still at the stage that we are looking at it as a 'versus' situation. I think the hard-cores on both sides are wrong.

Why wrong? Can you explain further what your thoughts are?

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papageorge1
23 minutes ago, LucidElement said:

Why wrong? Can you explain further what your thoughts are?

For example I think the fundamentalist Bible believers and the atheist-materialist views both are wrong. I believe there is a conscious intelligence in the universe (I used the complexity of DNA as one example of my issue with the atheist-materialist position.)

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kmt_sesh
17 hours ago, back to earth said:

Wow !    modern liberated women are only equal  to what is wrong with a man ???     :huh:

You are a woman yourself , right ?

( psssst ... BTE ... a christian woman   !  ) 

Oh yeah ..... I forgot about that bit for a moment there . 

But I thought all of us men were perfect?

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Hammerclaw
16 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

But I thought all of us men were perfect?

Perfectly capable of imperfection--and proud of it, too.

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Mr Walker
2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

But I thought all of us men were perfect?

 Only an unmarried /single man could retain that illusion. :(

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back to earth
19 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

A general reflection on the relevance of the bible's message  to women.

........

. The bible enforced and enshrined a man's duty to maintain that   protection . One could not simply abandon or walk away from  a woman once married.  

Not sure what Bible you are reading there   ;

Judges 19: 

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this disgraceful thing.

24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don’t do such a disgraceful thing.”

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go.

26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold.

28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 

 

This is from the Bible .... 

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back to earth
5 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

But I thought all of us men were perfect?

Some of them men in the BIble were,  apparently ... according to some readers .   I cant seem to find that - you might have to ask them about it .

:) 

Edited by back to earth

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, back to earth said:

Not sure what Bible you are reading there   ;

Judges 19: 

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, “No, my friends, don’t be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don’t do this disgraceful thing.

24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don’t do such a disgraceful thing.”

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go.

26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold.

28 He said to her, “Get up; let’s go.” But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 

 

This is from the Bible .... 

I can only suggest you read this or some other commentary to get the context, social  and legal reality of the time, and background. to this story. 

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/judges/19.html

One example

The poor abused woman made towards her husband’s lodgings as soon as ever the approach of the day-light obliged these sons of Belial to let her go (for these works of darkness hate and dread the light), v. 25. Down she fell at the door, with her hands on the threshold, begging pardon (as it were) for her former transgression, and in that posture of a penitent, with her mouth in the dust, she expired. There he found her (v. 26, v. 27), supposed her asleep, or overcome with shame and confusion for what had happened, but soon perceived she was dead (v. 28), took up her dead body, which, we may suppose, had all over it marks of the hands, the blows, and other abuses, she had received. On this sad occasion he waived his purpose of going to Shiloh, and went directly home. He that went out in hopes to return rejoicing came in again melancholy and disconsolate, sat down and considered, "Is this an injury fit to be passed by?’’ He cannot call for fire from heaven to consume the men of Gibeah, as those angels did who were, after the same manner, insulted by the Sodomites. There was no king in Israel, nor (for aught that appears) any sanhedrim, or great council, to appeal to, and demand justice from. Phinehas is high priest, but he attends closely to the business of the sanctuary, and will be no judge or divider. He has therefore no other way left him than to appeal to the people: let the community be judge. Though they had no general stated assembly of all the tribes, yet it is probable that each tribe had a meeting of their chiefs within itself. 

 He divided it into twelve pieces, according to the bones, so some read it, that is, by the joints, sending one to each tribe, even to Benjamin among the rest, with the hope that some among them would be moved to join in punishing so great a villany,

 

 All the people were guests in an old mans house.  He was threatened by  a large group of young men who were trying to break down the door of his house and who threatened all his guests. Eventually ( i assume withe agreement of the male guest) he surrendered the male guest's wife The old man could do nothing and the male guest, as a foreigner, had no legal rights or physical ability to right this wrong  

I am not sure you can blame anyone here, except the rapists. None of the others, in practice, had much choice.

It DOES go to the relative status of women, and there  is a suggestion that the earlier immorality of the concubine was a factor in her death.  But her master /husband, while seemingly a bit heartless, HAD already taken her back once, after she committed adultery and ran away,   showing considerable mercy by the standards of the time.

The story is about the depravity of the rapists AND the lack of law and order in this area. it illustrates the sort of thing which happens when there is no legal or moral authority over men.   This incident actually led to a war (one of the reasons it is remembered, most likely) because the benjamites refused to punish the rapists After an initial defeat the israelites beat the benjamites, the city was destroyed, and every man woman and child was put to death   Clearly one woman's life DID matter :) 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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back to earth

yeah right !   regardless of excuses ... the basic point was ; after she was thrown out to rapists  ... and she was found dead in the morning on the door step ... dude goes   "Get up woman "   but she doesnt . 

No one to blame here ... just the rapists  .... ca always get a new more obedient concubine eh ?

 

Thanks for clearing up how the Bible really does foster great attitudes about women ! 

 

 

 

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Rlyeh

I think I threw up a bit in my mouth.

Mr Walker don't you think your hand waving is bad enough without this copy and pasted overdramatic account? Which didn't even address back to earth's objection.

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back to earth

Oh ,  there is more ...  much more like that in the Bible ....  but I will spare you . 

Mr Walker will,  no doubt,  duck back in and explain it all away for us   :)  

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aquatus1
On 4/8/2017 at 5:38 PM, kmt_sesh said:

But I thought all of us men were perfect?

tumblr_inline_ogcromRPtZ1qdhop5_500.gif

tumblr_inline_ogcroo5l3E1qdhop5_500.gif

 

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