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European Superstate to form


Farmer77

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19 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Well, for example, I have something to say about it.

This fear of EU is accidentally political question too, but it comes down to the fact that some people are so hilariously insecure they’d rather be weak among the weaker, than strong among the strong.

If youre insecure, you'd want to stand amongst / behind the strong, not amongst the weak. It takes a secure individual to do so.

 

And since there are no realistic reasons why should anyone fear further development of cooperation between European nations (except hypothetical someone who would benefit from European loss), the scary stories have to be told in the most panicky way.

No one fears further development of cooperation between European nations, we are concerned about European nations no longer existing in the near future. Which is exactly what will happen if the present pattern continues unabated.

And if you wanna talk 'scary stories', go talk to the remain camp; and all dire consquences that are looming over British heads on account of the Brexit. The argument of the leave camp is centred around control over your own nation, sovereignty, so a nation can effectively react to certain developments tailored to that nations specific situation, variables. Instead of an one size fits all policy dictated by foreigners in a foreign land across the pond. Which is a completely rational consideration.

 

Fortunatelly, it takes a lot more than scary stories and one sad, anachronic and chauvinist spectacle to bring such great idea down. 

The great idea of European cooperation has been brought down by the very people who changed the endgoal to a United States of Europe, complete political and monetary union. Europeans simply do not want that, never did.

 

And I have something else to say too. I'm not worried in the slightest for the national identity and sovereignty of my own, very small, nation. Being part of EU can only help us remain what we are, in atmosphere of reduced risks and closer therefore better relations with the neighbours.

You are obviously convinced centralised, non national government producing one size fits all solutions across the board is a desirable situation. Which is your full right obviously. I, however, do not.

 

But that's just common sense talking, don't listen to it, it's more interesting if you listen to little people with big fears.  

Arrogant, childish, extremely biased. Thank you kindly for providing your profile like this, ma'am.

 

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Btw, the childish reaction of the EU parliament, commission; threatening GB wont get any sympathy in the near future.. is very telling.. And the only real threat to a prolonged financial disadvantage of GB.

Edited by Phaeton80
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So glad we're getting out now!

The EU wanting to control the banks is why Switzerland has now cancelled it's EU application.

Edited by Finity
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12 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

So you really don't have any objection to the way that, for instance, Greece was treated? 

I liked the old quoting system better. This is insane. 

Oh, well... I'll experiment a little :D

 

So, no. I wish my country was treated the way Greece was. But we’re Catholic so it was out the question. Until two or three days ago. lol.

 

12 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

You don't think that the attempts to impose economic uniformity on countries with economies as diverse as Germany, rural Spain and Greece is inevitably doomed to failure, at any rate for the smaller countries, even if the wealthy ones come out of it quite nicely? 

What destroys the economies of Greece (or Croatia for that matter) is mentality. Awful, freeloading, corrupt, shameless mentality. But lo and behold, we’re model workers abroad. There’re thousands of  sane and decent people who could make their living at home, but local political mafia is hard to dismantle. Conclusion: we need more European Union to stick its nose into our irrationally destructive local practices.

12 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

The funny thing is that you characterise anyone who does have doubts about the viability of the project of uniformity as living in fear, when you seem quite happy to surrender authority to a greater power, over which you have virtually say whatsoever. 

Well, if it’s not viable, it’ll crash. Like old empires, for example.

It’s funnily bizarre, by the way, that the fear (yeah, call it doubt or worry or dislike) of uniformity comes in package with the fear of immigrants. The scary others, that will speak Slavic languages in peaceful Pakistan... damn... anyway, you got my point.   

12 hours ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Why does being skeptical about this surrendering of authority mean that it has to be due to fear, when you might argue that it takes more nerve to take the risk of taking authority back than it does to trust in a super-authority over which you have very little say to protect you?

I don’t know. I’m not surrendering to anyone. (See, there’s your problem. You think you are surrendering when you’re faced with invitation to cooperation.)

I also don’t fear anyone, except myself. You see, I’m so stupid there’s no chance anyone else could finish me before I do that myself. By accident.

Then I also don’t expect any protection. I expect us, Europeans, to start working each for our own benefit by finding common grounds and reaching agreements. That’s the only way you get lasting results. Anything else might be profitable today but it will be devastatingly expensive tomorrow.

I’m thinking of tomorrow, you know.  

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On 28.6.2016 at 1:21 PM, Farmer77 said:

EUROPEAN political chiefs are to take advantage of Brexit by unveiling their long-held plan to morph the continent’s countries into one GIANT SUPERSTATE, it has emerged yesterday.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit

 

 How do our European members feel about this? 

A dream which  will never come true, because look at Europe's post ancient history.

 

Edit: And countries aka identification is made up of this written history. The people of Europe can't or don't want to get past that. I don't see a vivid movement for a united Europe, instead I see movements of hate and nonsense shaped from a dark history.

 

Edit2: however, i see a solidarity movement developing in England. And I can imagine that the same could happen over the next years or decades in other EU countries. What will happen then? Maybe the EU dismantles, a civil war breaks out and the USE are formed (similar to the USA). Who knows.

Edited by hellwyr
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2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

The new UM quoting system is... amusing. Kidding. It's me, Helen. 'alo 'alo :lol: All right, I'll knock it off.  And experiment with quoting for a little more, if you all don't mind. So... 

 

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

If youre insecure, you'd want to stand amongst / behind the strong, not amongst the weak. It takes a secure individual to do so.

 

The insecure would stand behind the strong too, but only if they’re not arrogant.

The crumbling empire you’re defending here is the epitome of political arrogance. Their idea of political success is Europe more hostile and poor than their land. If they had shred of confidence, they would work on making things better, not worse. But it takes abilities to make things better, while any idiot can make them worse.

So, insecure and arrogant, they want weak Europe because it can make the dying empire look a little less weak and only in weak Europe they hoped to exercise the influence they are not entitled to by any other criteria but their own arrogance.

Rephrased so anyone can understand: average girl doesn’t want her friends to look better than her. That’s because average girl is stupid and shallow. Don’t be political average girl. Grow up.

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

No one fears further development of cooperation between European nations, we are concerned about European nations no longer existing in the near future. Which is exactly what will happen if the present pattern continues unabated.

And if you wanna talk 'scary stories', go talk to the remain camp; and all dire consquences that are looming over British heads on account of the Brexit. The argument of the leave camp is centred around control over your own nation, sovereignty, so a nation can effectively react to certain developments tailored to that nations specific situation, variables. Instead of an one size fits all policy dictated by foreigners in a foreign land across the pond. Which is a completely rational consideration.

No, it's not what will happen. My nation didn’t cease to exist faced with actual enemies, from Turks to the contemporary ones, so it certainly won’t cease to exist because we will have better coordination with our neighbours. It’s bizarrely stupid projection.

Or, if you will, if you're so insecure about your own nation, let me comfort you with the fact that I'm absolutely confident my nation won't cease to exist because of EU. We might die out because of looong list of reasons, but EU is not on that list. 

 

Frankly, I don’t care what happens to Brecksacks. I do care what happens to the good neighbours who want to stay and develop our EU further.

And yeah, Nigel the Rational. Never follow people with visible issues, except out of morbid curiosity.

 

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

The great idea of European cooperation has been brought down by the very people who changed the endgoal to a United States of Europe, complete political and monetary union. Europeans simply do not want that, never did.

I’m European.

I hereby forbid you personally to talk what Europeans want without clearly stating that your opinion is your own and does not represent all Europeans and especially not me. 

I want European Union, preferably with the endgoal of actual, complete union. Literally without borders. With human rights, dignity, secured existence and huge funds for any heritage preservation imaginable. (So you guys stop thinking that fearing others is what makes your national identity.) What? One can dream.  

It can’t be achieved over night, but I’m extremely happy there’s at least a chance it will be so one day.

 

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

You are obviously convinced centralised, non national government producing one size fits all solutions across the board is a desirable situation. Which is your full right obviously. I, however, do not.

You are obviously assuming things completely the opposite of what I’ve said.

Which is your right, but let me note that it doesn’t leave good impression.

 

2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Arrogant, childish, extremely biased. Thank you kindly for providing your profile like this, ma'am.

Thank you for confirming I hit the target. Not that I had any insecurities about my aim. 

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I don't understand what people are so afraid of. Each of these individual countries had trade and allies long before the EU was formed and they did just fine. Okay, so you don't want to be absorbed into a unit. I highly doubt Canada and Mexico would like to join the US as one North American unit. It's not the end of the world.

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2 minutes ago, Michelle said:

I don't understand what people are so afraid of. Each of these individual countries had trade and allies long before the EU was formed and they did just fine. Okay, so you don't want to be absorbed into a unit. I highly doubt Canada and Mexico would like to join the US as one North American unit. It's not the end of the world.

That is the error everybody is committing when talking about the EU, they did fine until they reached a limit in growth and then they started picking on their neighbors or colonizing the rest of the world. After WWI and WWII that model became obsolete. Now the only usable model is corporation.

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5 minutes ago, Michelle said:

I don't understand what people are so afraid of. Each of these individual countries had trade and allies long before the EU was formed and they did just fine. Okay, so you don't want to be absorbed into a unit. I highly doubt Canada and Mexico would like to join the US as one North American unit. It's not the end of the world.

Are you saying it wouldn't really matter all that much if the Netherlands, Finland, Spain etc were to be combined into one giant nation? If it was tried with the USA, Canada and Mexico the Canadians and Mexicans might complain a bit but it wouldn't matter too much, so they shouldn't really make a fuss? I mean, leaving aside whether it'd be remotely feasible, or whether there are actually any plans to do such a thing, would it be not worth making too much of a fuss about? 

Edited by Otto von Pickelhaube
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3 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Are you saying it wouldn't really matter all that much if the Netherlands, Finland, Spain etc were to be combined into one giant nation? If it was tried with the USA, Canada and Mexico the Canadians and Mexicans might complain a bit but it wouldn't matter too much, so they shouldn't really make a fuss? I mean, leaving aside whether it'd be remotely feasible, or whether there are actually any plans to do such a thing, would it be not worth making too much of a fuss about? 

Of course! Why should they complain? We all just need to get along... ;)

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Ahem. 

United States of America are already united states of a continent. Obviously. 

Telling citizens of USA that there's something awful and scary in European Union, because surviving English colonial mentality said so, is... well, bizarre.

 

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2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ahem. 

United States of America are already united states of a continent. Obviously. 

Telling citizens of USA that there's something awful and scary in European Union, because surviving English colonial mentality said so, is... well, bizarre.

 

Now, now (but pretty accurate).

 

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Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

Ahem. 

United States of America are already united states of a continent. Obviously. 

Telling citizens of USA that there's something awful and scary in European Union, because surviving English colonial mentality said so, is... well, bizarre.

 

I'm not telling anyone anything. I asked a question. The US is made up of states, not countries, and we did in fact fight a Civil War of our own because some states objected to becoming a unit. The EU should have expected a revolt, if you want to use us as an example.

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4 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ahem. 

United States of America are already united states of a continent. Obviously. 

Telling citizens of USA that there's something awful and scary in European Union, because surviving English colonial mentality said so, is... well, bizarre.

 

Are you going to keep up with your theory that opposition to the EU is due to fear of foreigners? That's a very tired, cliched old argument.

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4 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Are you going to keep up with your theory that opposition to the EU is due to fear of foreigners? That's a very tired, cliched old argument.

And still it is the main argument of every anti-Eu movement.

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6 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Are you going to keep up with your theory that opposition to the EU is due to fear of foreigners? That's a very tired, cliched old argument.

'scuse me? 

That's what the Brexiters are insisting on - that they'll save UK from the foreigners by exiting EU. You ended up in that fine company, don't even dream of trying to drag me into that septic tank. 

The opposition to the EU in UK is due to complexes, probably stemming from the colonial times. If they can't be bosses, they won't be in at all. That's how it looks from my point of view. Maybe you can tell me what noble cause they indeed have got and I missed it.  

 

edit: I'm talking about politicians, not average people. 

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Just now, hellwyr said:

And still it is the main argument of every anti-Eu movement.

Most predominant there where there are no foreigners... or hardly any. See Eastern Germany

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1 minute ago, hellwyr said:

And still it is the main argument of every anti-Eu movement.

You just don't seem to have the mental capacity to consider that there might be any arguments other than the tired old resorting to "You just hate foreigners!" cliche, do you. You seem to have no arguments other than to just resort to that. Can you explain why left wingers and committed internationalists like Tony Benn, for example, were firmly opposed to the EU?

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54 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

The crumbling empire you’re defending here is the epitome of political arrogance. Their idea of political success is Europe more hostile and poor than their land. If they had shred of confidence, they would work on making things better, not worse. But it takes abilities to make things better, while any idiot can make them worse.

I really don't think you (or others) have a grasp of what happened in Britain with the Brexit vote Helen.

The two absolutely definitive patterns for remaining in the EU were Scotland and London. Scotland's vote was incredibly biased towards backing the Scottish National Party line to remain. Since the last General Election, they're the only party with any real voice in Scotland. Ask your average Scot whether they actually have more in common with the affluence of London or the economic reality of Northern England - former mining, textiles, fishing towns, etc. - and you'll see that the remain vote was more of a protest against London's control, which ironically they ending up backing.

London's vote was decided by the same people that skim the cream from Britain, and want to stay in the EU so they skim the cream from poorer EU member states too.

I'm generalizing of course. All manner of people had all manner of reasons for voting either leave or remain, and it isn't as clear cut as London = wealth, rest = poor. But if you think the EU will do anything other than make the rich richer, while keeping the poor in their place, you need to have a rethink.

Just to state one last time; this isn't about xenophobia. I absolutely understand why citizens from other countries would come to Britain, and I have absolutely nothing against anyone who does. The problem is that they aren't coming here and taking housing and jobs from affluent parts of Britain, they're taking them from places that are already at breaking point in areas such as the Northwest and Northeast of England.

Edited by LV-426
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36 minutes ago, Michelle said:

I don't understand what people are so afraid of. Each of these individual countries had trade and allies long before the EU was formed and they did just fine. 

Nobody seems to want to address this point. What exactly are the benefits of the EU the individual countries didn't have before? Didn't they bail each other out when needed anyway? Now those countries aren't obligated to pay it back? What is it?

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There are certain aspects which are dangerous in the EU from an economic and political point of view. The centralized and undemocratic structure for example.Also, the lack of political instruments to tackle imbalances on the common market is an issue.

However, a lot of these issues have actually been improved over the past years. But it is still not enough. In order to make the economy more stable the EU woukd need more integration and power. Which means it could only work if it in fact became the USE. 

 

In comparison, the USA has the legal framework in place to tackle crisis, while the Eu lacks the power to do so. Also, in the USA every state has her own identy, own laws to some extent and she still functions quite well as a single market (because of the federal government)

Which means the EU shoukd adopt the American system from an economic point of view.

I can imagine there are a lot of left wing politicians who critize the EU. However these issues could be solved.

That being said, the popular anti- EU movements get their power from the fear of immigration.

Edited by hellwyr
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So to address the problems of lack of democracy and the throwing aside of individual countries' interests and well-being, if necessary, in the interests of the whole (which means really trying to keep the Single currency going), the way forward is to give even more power to the central government? 

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24 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

I really don't think you (or others) have a grasp of what happened in Britain with the Brexit vote Helen.

The two absolutely definitive patterns for remaining in the EU were Scotland and London. Scotland's vote was incredibly biased towards backing the Scottish National Party line to remain. Since the last General Election, they're the only party with any real voice in Scotland. Ask your average Scot whether they actually have more in common with the affluence of London or the economic reality of Northern England - former mining, textiles, fishing towns, etc. - and you'll see that the remain vote was more of a protest against London's control, which ironically they ending up backing.

 

Yes, there must have been some big confusion there when ms Sturgeon looked at the maps. Her protest vote against London meant they ended up in agreement with it, and against the rest of England! And their protest against being governed remotely from London (where many Scottish MPs sit in Parliament) could lead to them aligning themselves with a far more remote government in Brussels! (where, apart from a very small number of MEPs, they have no representation at all!) Talk about cunning plans backfiring on you. :blush:

Edited by Otto von Pickelhaube
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8 minutes ago, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

So to address the problems of lack of democracy and the throwing aside of individual countries' interests and well-being, if necessary, in the interests of the whole (which means really trying to keep the Single currency going), the way forward is to give even more power to the central government? 

Now I get it...they have to have a marriage license and can't simply live together.  You've got to make it legal and binding. haha

 

Outdated concept, in my opinion.

Edited by Michelle
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23 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

I really don't think you (or others) have a grasp of what happened in Britain with the Brexit vote Helen.

The two absolutely definitive patterns for remaining in the EU were Scotland and London. Scotland's vote was incredibly biased towards backing the Scottish National Party line to remain. Since the last General Election, they're the only party with any real voice in Scotland. Ask your average Scot whether they actually have more in common with the affluence of London or the economic reality of Northern England - former mining, textiles, fishing towns, etc. - and you'll see that the remain vote was more of a protest against London's control, which ironically they ending up backing.

London's vote was decided by the same people that skim the cream from Britain, and want to stay in the EU so they skim the cream from poorer EU member states too.

I'm generalizing of course. All manner of people had all manner of reasons for voting either leave or remain, and it isn't as clear cut as London = wealth, rest = poor. But if you think the EU will do anything other than make the rich richer, while keeping the poor in their place, you need to have a rethink.

Just to state one last time; this isn't about xenophobia. I absolutely understand why citizens from other countries would come to Britain, and I have absolutely nothing against anyone who does. The problem is that they aren't coming here and taking housing and jobs from affluent parts of Britain, they're taking them from places that are already at breaking point in areas such as the Northwest and Northeast of England.

Thank you for your friendly and informative reply.

 

I don’t expect any socialist utopia, or any utopia from EU. I expect usual political and business filth, only now with more rational stance on European international relations.

And that’s, in my opinion, extremely important detail

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