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European Superstate to form


Farmer77

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20 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Nobody seems to want to address this point. What exactly are the benefits of the EU the individual countries didn't have before? Didn't they bail each other out when needed anyway? Now those countries aren't obligated to pay it back? What is it?

They were trading under protectionist rules by banging (sometimes for no real reason) customs and acise on foreign products. That means that you needed an import license, then you had to bring the wares to custom control and then you had to pay taxes. That reduced imports and exports greatly, especially when you wanted to compete with a local company. That did not lead to any significant growth for anybody.

And no, they did not bail each other out, in fact they had an incredible dedication to ruining the neighbor in the hope to just overrun it.

 

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The idea to form the EU came from the US (Churchill) and its intention was and is to keep peace in Europe. Some here say European countries have peacefully lived together before, but no they didn't, they waged war against each-other.

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52 minutes ago, hellwyr said:

The idea to form the EU came from the US (Churchill) and its intention was and is to keep peace in Europe. Some here say European countries have peacefully lived together before, but no they didn't, they waged war against each-other.

Then it would have come from the UK, 'cause old Winston was pretty British ('cepting those Havanas he used to smoke), but Jean Monnet would strongly oppose the notion that Churchill was the inventor.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Then it would have come from the UK, 'cause old Winston was pretty British ('cepting those Havanas he used to smoke), but Jean Monnet would strongly oppose the notion that Churchill was the inventor.

 

 

yep sorry ahhahaha (Which makes Brexit even more ironic)

 

Anyway, Churchill's speech was the beginning as far as I can remember.

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19 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 

The insecure would stand behind the strong too, but only if they’re not arrogant.

??!

The crumbling empire you’re defending here is the epitome of political arrogance. Their idea of political success is Europe more hostile and poor than their land. If they had shred of confidence, they would work on making things better, not worse. But it takes abilities to make things better, while any idiot can make them worse.

Youre the one defending a crumbling empire, I am defending the individual nation states that are part of that (aspired) empire. And if you want to talk poor; you should talk to the Greeks. The EU has not braught wealth, prosperity and stability; but the exact opposite. In my nation alone, one of the most rich and stable nations, almost all social achievements have been reverted. Almost everything we as a Dutch people fought for in a social sense, like being able to stop working at 55, flexible working hours, certain levels of social security, care for the elderly, free judicial support, healthcare.. It has all gone down hill, significantly. So all these PR stories about the EU having delivered more prosperity to its member states; its BS. There are more poor Dutch people now than I can remember. 'Foodbanks' have become a social necessity. If you want to talk hostile; look at the discord the whole immigration issue braught to light. It was an open declaration of incompetence, resulting in extreme forms of infighting. The robbing of Greece's assets by the Troyka has understably fueled hostility amongst the Greek people. This would not have happened if these nations were sovereign, where they would be able to manage their borders as they deem fit, and devalue theiur currency if that is needed. So yeah, hostile and poor indeed.
 

So, insecure and arrogant, they want weak Europe because it can make the dying empire look a little less weak and only in weak Europe they hoped to exercise the influence they are not entitled to by any other criteria but their own arrogance.

Oh please. They want nothing of the sort. They want control over their own nation, to effectively respond to developments in- and outside theior borders (which they can now control themselves).

 

Rephrased so anyone can understand: average girl doesn’t want her friends to look better than her. That’s because average girl is stupid and shallow. Don’t be political average girl. Grow up.

OK.. Seems I have picked the wrong person to engage with. Can hardly take this serious. You wont mind if I discontinue this, Im sure.

[..]

Thank you for confirming I hit the target. Not that I had any insecurities about my aim. 

Sure, sure.

 

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Bad news for those who wanted remain.

The UK stock market is now higher than it was from before the vote and our currency has been regaining is rate against the dollar day after day.

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8 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Bad news for those who wanted remain.

The UK stock market is now higher than it was from before the vote and our currency has been regaining is rate against the dollar day after day.

Because, as I said a few times, nothing has happened yet.

From here on there are many possibilities:

The British are leaving.

The British are staying but pretending to leave (EEA model).

The British are staying because:

Scotland and Ireland veto the decision

The House of Lords nullifies the law that needs to be passed.

Somebody sues against the law that might be passed by the government.

The next government decides they are not bound to the Brexit.

Any of the above would require a different reaction, from business as usual to I am taking my business somewhere else. If there are any reactions at all they won't happen until somebody triggers Art. 50 (BTW, Junkers has an armada of lawyers checking if he can force the British to do that if the next government does not by suing at the European Court of Justice).

 

 

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12 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Bad news for those who wanted remain.

The UK stock market is now higher than it was from before the vote and our currency has been regaining is rate against the dollar day after day.

Why would that be bad news? Surely that's good for everyone? Unless you're just engaging in some kind of immature gloating of course... :rolleyes:

At any rate, as I've posted elsewhere, the FTSE 100 has recovered but the FTSE 250 (containing a higher proportion of UK companies and therefore better indicator of the UK economy) is still well down.

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Phaeton, I said what I had to say about the Brexit travesty. So, yes, I think we’re both done flaming in here :D

Just two things I want to tell you, not in the arguing tone, I simply want them clear:

I’m sorry to hear you are losing social benefits. On the other hand, you could retire at 55?! Was that a typo?  A pensioner at 55? If someone was disabled, certainly, but 55 years old healthy person is in most professions at their peak, experienced but not tired yet.  

 

And the other thing: Average Greek income is much higher than Croatian. I don’t have to look for the poor to talk to them, I can talk to myself. And in my country, that’s not because of any Troika, that’s because of our domestic traitors that can’t just steal a little from the people, they always absolutely have to steal everything.

So it’s extremely counter-productive to focus the blame outside, while we know painfully well who is the problem. I might be wrong, but I believe it’s not much different in Greece.

Criticize Troika and the likes, I will probably agree with you most of the time, but do not help our domestic criminals by spreading the excuse all the blame lies outside our countries.  

We are to blame. We, the people, who keep electing... that. In our defence, there are virtually no honest people with political ambitions so there, we’re picking what appears to be the cleanest turd in the political septic tank.

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59 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Phaeton, I said what I had to say about the Brexit travesty. So, yes, I think we’re both done flaming in here :D

Just two things I want to tell you, not in the arguing tone, I simply want them clear:

I’m sorry to hear you are losing social benefits. On the other hand, you could retire at 55?! Was that a typo?  A pensioner at 55? If someone was disabled, certainly, but 55 years old healthy person is in most professions at their peak, experienced but not tired yet.  

And the other thing: Average Greek income is much higher than Croatian. I don’t have to look for the poor to talk to them, I can talk to myself. And in my country, that’s not because of any Troika, that’s because of our domestic traitors that can’t just steal a little from the people, they always absolutely have to steal everything.

So it’s extremely counter-productive to focus the blame outside, while we know painfully well who is the problem. I might be wrong, but I believe it’s not much different in Greece.

Criticize Troika and the likes, I will probably agree with you most of the time, but do not help our domestic criminals by spreading the excuse all the blame lies outside our countries.  

We are to blame. We, the people, who keep electing... that. In our defence, there are virtually no honest people with political ambitions so there, we’re picking what appears to be the cleanest turd in the political septic tank.

 

 

Thank you for the change of tone. Dont get me wrong here, I am not on social benefits, never have been. That doesnt mean I am not concerned for the people who are. Point I was trying to make is that numerous social/public services have been undermined considerably, all during the EU timeframe. Many keep regurgitating the EU has been so good for Europeans financially, that simply isnt true. It has been kind to big business, financial market.. certainly. Not to the public at large though. And Greece.. with 'friends' like Greece has, who in the h*ll needs enemies. Crippling loans while selling off all national assets that represent any real value.. with the people living in abject poverty. Europe, 2016.

Ofcourse, the mainstream/rightwing European public blames it on the Greek, 'that lazy tax evader who wants to retire at 38'. It seems the moment people see themselves as creditor, they start to behave like banks.. even those who have been treated in thesame manner. Interesting social phenomenon. Blame it on others or not; the rational here is more self determination, sovereignty, democracy, instead of less. I agree with you that at the end of the day, we are the problem for letting this all go down without acting. This is exactly why I support the move towards regaining national sovereignty. Finally, an explicit reaction to the continued disconnect the elitist clique in Brussel has exemplified time and time again.

Edited by Phaeton80
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1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Thank you for the change of tone. Dont get me wrong here, I am not on social benefits, never have been. That doesnt mean I am not concerned for the people who are. Point I was trying to make is that numerous social/public services have been undermined considerably, all during the EU timeframe. Many keep regurgitating the EU has been so good for Europeans financially, that simply isnt true. It has been kind to big business, financial market.. certainly. Not to the public at large though. And Greece.. with 'friends' like Greece has, who in the h*ll needs enemies. Crippling loans while selling off all national assets that represent any real value.. with the people living in abject poverty. Europe, 2016.

Ofcourse, the mainstream/rightwing European public blames it on the Greek, 'that lazy tax evader who wants to retire at 38'. It seems the moment people see themselves as creditor, they start to behave like banks.. even those who have been treated in thesame manner. Interesting social phenomenon. Blame it on others or not; the rational here is more self determination, sovereignty, democracy, instead of less. I agree with you that at the end of the day, we are the problem for letting this all go down without acting. This is exactly why I support the move towards regaining national sovereignty. Finally, an explicit reaction to the continued disconnect the elitist clique in Brussel has exemplified time and time again.

Wait, so retirement at 55 wasn’t a typo?

Man, that’s way too early. No, seriously. It’s not socalledism-crapitalism issue, it’s just criminally early. Not only you can't keep up with that financially, it's also wasting human resources. 

And Greece is full of lazy tax evaders. So is my country. 

I actually want Euro introduced in my land so we finally get that financial discipline that is simply not there, for as long as small clique of local merchants dictates national currency. And the tax evasion. It’s rampant. Not among the common people, we pay and overpay, but said clique of locally important persons doesn’t. Main national companies owe millions to the state budget. And no one in power wants to stop them, because, hey, they are not in power out of hobby. We need that horrible Brussels, unimpressed with local godfathers, so important in their own village while so tiny compared to actual, living economies, to spoil their idyll.  

Obviously you’re not ready to believe me, but I live among abject and looming poverty and I’m telling you it wasn’t EU that did that. EU can help us out of it, if that frame is used correctly.

Yes, I said if, I’m not an idiot, I just prefer pragmatism to ideology.

 

I also see no loss of sovereignty in the EU. Don’t we have UK proving it’s not at all a problem to get out if you think that’s the right choice for you?

For you, not automatically for everyone, mind you.

So, they would get out in a process that would last for few years, far less than it took for EU to form. Or 20tish years it took for Croatia to enter. If they had agreement within their country, of course. Since they don’t have it, it will develop a little more interesting. Another thing that’s not EU fault, that apparent split in the public opinion. But their case is specific out of their internal reasons, the point here is that you can enter but you can also exit.

So what.  

Just be so kind to take with you only your own stuff and don't let the door hit you on your way out. 

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2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I actually want Euro introduced in my land so we finally get that financial discipline that is simply not there, for as long as small clique of local merchants dictates national currency. And the tax evasion. It’s rampant. Not among the common people, we pay and overpay, but said clique of locally important persons doesn’t. Main national companies owe millions to the state budget. And no one in power wants to stop them, because, hey, they are not in power out of hobby. We need that horrible Brussels, unimpressed with local godfathers, so important in their own village while so tiny compared to actual, living economies, to spoil their idyll.   

 

 

Well, by the description you are giving and with the bad example given by Greece (and aided by Cyprus) don't hold your breath for the Euro...

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5 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Well, by the description you are giving and with the bad example given by Greece (and aided by Cyprus) don't hold your breath for the Euro...

I wasn't expecting it for another 10 or so years, but there are rumors it could happen very soon. Or maybe it was just Junkers being annoyed and saying things. We'll see.   

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Those who want create an artificial superstate (USE) are currently waiting impatiently in their rat-holes.
Some of them get out occasionally, sniffing the air and testing the wind direction.
As soon as the UK triggers "Article 50" I expect them to appear in masses (or may be they will wait until after the French elections).
Then we will hear sentences like "because of the global challenges...", "small countries cannot compete with China...", "we have no choice", "we need to be more influential in the world",  "there is no alternative",  and so on...
The citizens won't have any say as usual.

 

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9 minutes ago, Katzenking said:

Those who want create an artificial superstate (USE) are currently waiting impatiently in their rat-holes.
Some of them get out occasionally, sniffing the air and testing the wind direction.
As soon as the UK triggers "Article 50" I expect them to appear in masses (or may be they will wait until after the French elections).
Then we will hear sentences like "because of the global challenges...", "small countries cannot compete with China...", "we have no choice", "we need to be more influential in the world",  "there is no alternative",  and so on...
The citizens won't have any say as usual.

 

Wait, let me get this straight, what state is not "artificial"?

 

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14 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Wait, let me get this straight, what state is not "artificial"?

 

LOL, you are right on this one but normally states grow slowly together within centuries. I pointed out in another thread on this forum that I am in principle not against a "USE", but it should take time, much time. I am thinking about 300 or 500 years. I am sure that the people who currently live in the EU don't want this. But may be future generations will.
A referendum in all member states could clarify this. I would accept the majority.

By the way I really appreciate your passionate work here, even if I don't agree on everything. But I learnt a lot from your comments and different views keep the discussion alive. Keep it on!

 

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2 minutes ago, Katzenking said:

LOL, you are right on this one but normally states grow slowly together within centuries. I pointed out in another thread on this forum that I am in principle not against a "USE", but it should take time, much time. I am thinking about 300 or 500 years. I am sure that the people who currently live in the EU don't want this. But may be future generations will.
A referendum in all member states could clarify this. I would accept the majority.

By the way I really appreciate your passionate work here, even if I don't agree on everything. But I learnt a lot from your comments and different views keep the discussion alive. Keep it on!

 

Well, Germany grew together in 85 years (1834-1919) . Italy in less than 20. So no, it does not take centuries.

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Just now, Katzenking said:

LOL, you are right on this one but normally states grow slowly together within centuries. I pointed out in another thread on this forum that I am in principle not against a "USE", but it should take time, much time. I am thinking about 300 or 500 years. I am sure that the people who currently live in the EU don't want this. But may be future generations will.
A referendum in all member states could clarify this. I would accept the majority.

By the way I really appreciate your passionate work here, even if I don't agree on everything. But I learnt a lot from your comments and different views keep the discussion alive. Keep it on!

 

 

As things stand I seriously doubt the Increasing voice of the Right Wing in the EU states will roll over and allow this.The EU will have to do what they are good at and crush Democracy to cancel them out.Since Brexit the EU house of cards has a little wobble, not a lot but a little all the same.

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On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:06 AM, hellwyr said:

The idea to form the EU came from the US (Churchill) and its intention was and is to keep peace in Europe. Some here say European countries have peacefully lived together before, but no they didn't, they waged war against each-other.

Actually, when Roosevelt broached the idea of a United States of Europe, Churchill thought it quite a preposterous notion, just as he did Roosevelt's concept of a United States of India.

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France and Germany should unite, first, and test how effectively they can subordinate their own national identities. If they, the two principal players, can't make it work, the whole shoddy structure of their nascent Union would come tumbling down around their ears at the first good shove, anyway.

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Right, and here comes the punch-line, the possible consequences of a superstate:
Less individual freedom (goodbye to legal pot in NL), lower wages in order to stay 'competitive', retirement not before 70 (working longer and dying earlier saves money),  an 'European Army', Turkey becomes member (bigger market), further systematic devaluation of the Euro (strengthens export), uncontrolled migration (cheap labour), police-state (because of the terrorist threat due to migration), threatening all neighbours (including the UK), suppressing separation movements, etc.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Katzenking said:

Right, and here comes the punch-line, the possible consequences of a superstate:
Less individual freedom (goodbye to legal pot in NL), lower wages in order to stay 'competitive', retirement not before 70 (working longer and dying earlier saves money),  an 'European Army', Turkey becomes member (bigger market), further systematic devaluation of the Euro (strengthens export), uncontrolled migration (cheap labour), police-state (because of the terrorist threat due to migration), threatening all neighbours (including the UK), suppressing separation movements, etc.

 

 

Those, unless something will be done very quickly will come anyway, even without EU unless people stop voting idiots in. And the only EU member that actually wanted Turkey in is leaving, Erdogan is already looking for new friends in the East.

 

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On 30/06/2016 at 4:40 PM, questionmark said:

Because, as I said a few times, nothing has happened yet.

From here on there are many possibilities:

The British are leaving.

The British are staying but pretending to leave (EEA model).

The British are staying because:

Scotland and Ireland veto the decision

The House of Lords nullifies the law that needs to be passed.

Somebody sues against the law that might be passed by the government.

The next government decides they are not bound to the Brexit.

Any of the above would require a different reaction, from business as usual to I am taking my business somewhere else. If there are any reactions at all they won't happen until somebody triggers Art. 50 (BTW, Junkers has an armada of lawyers checking if he can force the British to do that if the next government does not by suing at the European Court of Justice).

 

 

"Because, as I said a few times, nothing has happened yet" are you suffering  from Alzheimer's or a form of political  Tourette's because I've never before read so much by one person about something 'that's not happening'

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1 minute ago, hetrodoxly said:

"Because, as I said a few times, nothing has happened yet" are you suffering  from Alzheimer's or a form of political  Tourette's because I've never before read so much by one person about something 'that's not happening'

As I said: we will see.

But I understand that you are making in optimism.

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2 hours ago, Katzenking said:

Right, and here comes the punch-line, the possible consequences of a superstate:
Less individual freedom (goodbye to legal pot in NL), lower wages in order to stay 'competitive', retirement not before 70 (working longer and dying earlier saves money),  an 'European Army', Turkey becomes member (bigger market), further systematic devaluation of the Euro (strengthens export), uncontrolled migration (cheap labour), police-state (because of the terrorist threat due to migration), threatening all neighbours (including the UK), suppressing separation movements, etc.

 

 

I hate the new quoting system. 

 

Less individual freedom (goodbye to legal pot in NL),

That is the first issue we should be concerned with. No, really, it is. But since pot really does have healing properties, scientifically officially now, and – more important – is potential source of huge revenue, isn’t it more likely it will become legal everywhere? For example, over here we finally have medical marihuana legalised, but we have to import it (!!). It grows wonderfully in south-east Europe. There, where countries are so broke. A country as small as mine could live on bottling natural mineral water and growing crops high in demand – pot, for example. I’m dead serious. If EU won't do that for the health, then they must do that for profit. 

 

lower wages in order to stay 'competitive',

If the prices are lower, then the wages can be lower without people starting a revolution. And prices are often so high because people who set them are high. Not on pot, it’s mostly obviously cocaine.

 

retirement not before 70 (working longer and dying earlier saves money), 

We live longer than before, it’s only logical we’ll work longer than before. People used to be old at 70, and some are, and they deserve retirement 5 or even 10 years before that, but pushing that limit further already happens without any real meddling of EU. Each government is more than enough insensitive and greedy on their own. 

 

an 'European Army',

Everyone already have NATO obligations or close cooperation relations.

 

Turkey becomes member (bigger market)

Nah. What they currently sell no one in left in Europe would buy.

 

further systematic devaluation of the Euro (strengthens export),

That remains to be seen. Also, it’s kind of shallow to wish for stronger Euro just because you’ll have more to spend in non-Euro countries while your economy could profit from devaluated currency and thus you’d again have more to spend.

 

uncontrolled migration (cheap labour),

You had that before and you’re still alive. More united Europe would probably control it more, not less. After all, aren’t we all worried there would be too much control of everything?

 

police-state (because of the terrorist threat due to migration),

Yes. That could happen. But it already happens, because those who could stop financing terrorism don’t want to do that. I think these games are larger than Brussels alone.

 

threatening all neighbours (including the UK),

And Putin. OMG. Will someone think of poor Putin? What if EU invades Russia and the winter turns to be mild? Damn the global warming.

 

suppressing separation movements,

Or making them obsolete. 

 

etc.

Sorry about the long post, I couldn't resist. 

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