Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

European Superstate to form


Farmer77

Recommended Posts

Hi , H , I liked your post but had a laugh at the last bit, poor old Putin must be shaking in his Jackboots, As for attacking Britain, well bring 'em on... Quote "we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight in the streets. we shall fight in the hills, we shall NEVER surrender "..Winston Churchill...Unquote 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, spud the mackem said:

Hi , H , I liked your post but had a laugh at the last bit, poor old Putin must be shaking in his Jackboots, As for attacking Britain, well bring 'em on... Quote "we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight in the streets. we shall fight in the hills, we shall NEVER surrender "..Winston Churchill...Unquote 

Spud! Stop laughing! At once! It’s not a laughing matter. Putin is shaking because he’s shirtless again :lol:

 

Oh, I know that quote very well. Iron Maiden’s Aces High start with it :D

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

France and Germany should unite, first, and test how effectively they can subordinate their own national identities. If they, the two principal players, can't make it work, the whole shoddy structure of their nascent Union would come tumbling down around their ears at the first good shove, anyway.

I like the French, really do, especially French women... and it is less than an one hour drive away from where I am now. But I was not there during the last 10 years. And the reason is the language gap. I can't speak French (I know about 100 words), they don't speak German and they don't speak English either.
I am afraid that this always praised Franco-German relationship only exists on paper or in Brussels but rarely between ordinary people.

Edited by Katzenking
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Sorry about the long post, I couldn't resist. 

On the pot issue I am absolutely with you, also on Putin (lol) and I will retire with 60 or before even if I have to live without income for some years. I don't allow the govt. to decide this for me!
And on the other things... I mean you must have made your experience with Yugoslavia. I was often there as a child in the 1970s. Mostly in Croatia, once in Slovenia but there is only one coastal town (Koper) as far as I remember.
Everthing was so peaceful and the people very friendly and relaxed, and then in the 90s everything exploded in war. Meanwhile of course I have learnt much about the background but I would expect you to be suspicious about countries that join together.
100 years ago Croatia was part of Austria-Hungary (excuse me when I am wrong), and this ended in a mess as well.
So I wonder why you think the EU is better than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2016-06-30 at 2:43 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

And Greece is full of lazy tax evaders. So is my country. 

Greece is far from lazy, and the stats prove it. 2012 figures from the OECD showed that the average Greek worker worked 2,017 hours per year which is more than any other European country. What happened to Greece is complex and goes back to the Lehman Brothers bankruptcy in 2008 after which they got totally screwed by guess who. As for the Super Duper European Superstate, well um, yeah...

rQ05Jgb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi, Katzenking.

I can say I know few things about unions, yes.

Our peoples had few different experiences with unions, since 11th century. No, I won’t go that far, though in our local quarrels we go even further back :lol: Usually since 7th century. I kid you not.

Austria-Hungary has good reputation in the folk memory. There were issues with Hungarians, who acted bossy, which culminated with Croatian Sabor (Parliament) deputy kicking Hungarian ban (sort of duke) in the ass. Hungarians thought it was so humiliating they were trying to prove it didn’t happen, while promptly imprisoned Croatian deputies were psychotically determined in proving that yes, deputy Grzhanich did kick ban Khuen Hedervary in the ass. And yes, he did.  

It’s just a little episode, but I think it speaks volumes about Croatian approach to unions.

And even back then, there were differences between Croatian and Serbian general political opinion. Croats fought willingly for Austria-Hungary, while Serbs assassinated Franz Ferdinand.

It was sadistic to clump nations so opposed into one artificial state after WWI. But many sadistic things happened after WWI and we had Serbian ‘king’ installed. That first Yugoslavia was not built on romantic pan-Slavic idea that was propagated by - Croats. Serve us right for being idealistic idiots. Yugoslavia was English project done according to their idea of organizing troubled nations into hegemonies, because it was supposed to make control easier. Right. 

Then the WWII happened. The second Yugoslavia that followed had different king and society model installed, but it was Serbian hegemony again. We were all equal but the Serbs were the most equal.

It took a while to dismantle that, but it was finally done and it was worth it. Naturally, I can’t speak for every Croatian citizen, but speaking for the people I personally know: we’d do it again.  

  

The EU in making reminds me more of Austria-Hungary than of ex-Yugoslavia.

Yes, it’s also bureaucratized, just like the old Monarchy, but that certainly isn’t something that can’t be changed, for the better. I can kick someone in the ass to speed it up :D

  

  

 

Hi, Clair, thank you for your insight, but didn’t you notice you are explaining to me what’s going on in my part of the world?

I can’t unsee the reality of my part of the world just because that reality is inconvenient for the certain political options – that don’t stink any less of those they attack. In my own opinion, that was based on personal experiences.

 

 

edit: It's 1 AM, I tend to forgot how to English at this hour.  

Edited by Helen of Annoy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/29/2016 at 2:07 PM, Helen of Annoy said:

I liked the old quoting system better. This is insane. 

Oh, well... I'll experiment a little :D

 

So, no. I wish my country was treated the way Greece was. But we’re Catholic so it was out the question. Until two or three days ago. lol.

 

 

 

What destroys the economies of Greece (or Croatia for that matter) is mentality. Awful, freeloading, corrupt, shameless mentality. But lo and behold, we’re model workers abroad. There’re thousands of  sane and decent people who could make their living at home, but local political mafia is hard to dismantle. Conclusion: we need more European Union to stick its nose into our irrationally destructive local practices.

 

 

Well, if it’s not viable, it’ll crash. Like old empires, for example.

 

It’s funnily bizarre, by the way, that the fear (yeah, call it doubt or worry or dislike) of uniformity comes in package with the fear of immigrants. The scary others, that will speak Slavic languages in peaceful Pakistan... damn... anyway, you got my point.   

 

 

 

I don’t know. I’m not surrendering to anyone. (See, there’s your problem. You think you are surrendering when you’re faced with invitation to cooperation.)

 

I also don’t fear anyone, except myself. You see, I’m so stupid there’s no chance anyone else could finish me before I do that myself. By accident.

 

Then I also don’t expect any protection. I expect us, Europeans, to start working each for our own benefit by finding common grounds and reaching agreements. That’s the only way you get lasting results. Anything else might be profitable today but it will be devastatingly expensive tomorrow.

 

I’m thinking of tomorrow, you know.  

 

I can certainly see some advantage for the possibility of better security for smaller states in this new system.  The idea that the diverse cultures of Europe could be legislated out of existence to form one monolithic power structure with a leadership accountable to NO ONE really is - or should be - scary as hell.  Of course there would be less chance of warfare within the union.  It would also keep Mad Vlad and his successors at bay, probably.  My guess is that the youth who have become accustomed to thinking of themselves as Europeans and not Germans, Irish or Polish will eventually bring this monstrosity of a modern Mittelteuropa to life.  Perhaps it's time for the nations of Europe to turn from their historic roots and traditions and embrace a new way forward but the idea that trading local leadership which is accountable on some level to far distant leaders who are absolutely untouchable seems too much like our Federal experiment here.  The true madness is that at least here we have some semblance of power through the ballot.  This brave new European sounds more like a drone to me.  God help the non conformists...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the big problem is islam. it has no place in western civilization they want to allow them into europe as a means to contain and reform it. in the USA its black "culture", LGBT "culture", hispanic culture (no quotation marks because its a real culture) that are being used to destroy the status quo in order to basically start over with everybody on the same level. sort of "tear everybody down and rebuild them".  the problem is no one asked anyone about it and it has been foisted on us by the liberal powers. i mean just look at the last 40 years: sex on tv, sex on music on the radio, promotinng LGBT parades and normalizing wack gay **** in public and on TV, lewd dancing and behavior in public.....this has been created to allow the poorest "races/cultures" to catch up to everyone else.

in Europe, this has been going on too. i think the world has been trying to make up for what the liberal idiots refer to as "the evils of colonialism". i dont agree with that but its pretty commonly discussed in universities and liberal breeding cloning grounds.

the problem is is that this approach has not worked ever in the entire history of the world and is doomed to failure because you cannot stop large "groups" of homogenous minded people from forming. whether its education, religion, philosophy, common ancestry, family values, etc. ad nauseum. when these large groups form they usually dont want interference from other groups they dont like. usually historically, this forms nations and kingdoms and empires. Economy is also a big factor in nation building and for example ROME, the big empire's economy was so important that other people were just sucked in....while others were just conquered. 

in the EU today, it is the big powers that are pushing this idea....while i am sure desiring the "United states of Europe" to form one language and eventually culture.  NOW back to islam: islamic countries are providing the "U.S.E"  with the readily available cheap labor that the Mexican people provide the USA.....and the People of Europe dont want the muslims...for good reason too..anyone with any history knowledge understands this......and please dont tell me that anything has changed since the battle of lepanto 1571, or the siege of vienna 1683, because it hasnt.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

what if everything just stayed the same? Would that be so bad?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Hi, Clair, thank you for your insight, but didn’t you notice you are explaining to me what’s going on in my part of the world?

I can’t unsee the reality of my part of the world just because that reality is inconvenient for the certain political options – that don’t stink any less of those they attack. In my own opinion, that was based on personal experiences.

Sorry Helen, I hadn't read enough to notice where you're at, so no I wasn't aware I had addressed your part of the world. I don't know though that I would compare Greece to your country, although there are similarities I suppose. The Greek government was certainly corrupt to a degree, and it definitely made some bad decisions, but the problem was not all internal, so one cannot blame them entirely.  But had they conducted themselves differently, they wouldn't be in a position to be taken advantage of they way they are now.. and they are being taken advantage of.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Clair said:

Sorry Helen, I hadn't read enough to notice where you're at, so no I wasn't aware I had addressed your part of the world. I don't know though that I would compare Greece to your country, although there are similarities I suppose. The Greek government was certainly corrupt to a degree, and it definitely made some bad decisions, but the problem was not all internal, so one cannot blame them entirely.  But had they conducted themselves differently, they wouldn't be in a position to be taken advantage of they way they are now.. and they are being taken advantage of.

Wait, lets get this clear, if a person is so deep in debt that he cannot repay and its creditors restructure it (and even forgive parts of it) so he/she does not have to declare bankruptcy and the only condition is to not spend more than he/she is making is taking advantage of that person?

So why is it different for a state?

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Clair said:

Sorry Helen, I hadn't read enough to notice where you're at, so no I wasn't aware I had addressed your part of the world. I don't know though that I would compare Greece to your country, although there are similarities I suppose. The Greek government was certainly corrupt to a degree, and it definitely made some bad decisions, but the problem was not all internal, so one cannot blame them entirely.  But had they conducted themselves differently, they wouldn't be in a position to be taken advantage of they way they are now.. and they are being taken advantage of.

...Most definitely Greece would have been in a different situation if they had taken ownership of their problems early on and not procrastinated on reforms. The mere fact that they voted in Tsipras  and his economic henchman Varofakis and their silly idea of claiming bankruptcy costed the Greek people another 100 billion in extra debt. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Wait, lets get this clear, if a person is so deep in debt that he cannot repay and its creditors restructure it (and even forgive parts of it) so he/she does not have to declare bankruptcy and the only condition is to not spend more than he/she is making is taking advantage of that person?

So why is it different for a state?

 

Using Greece as an example: IMO, the Situation was that bankruptcy was incompatible with the EURO. They offered Greece an initial debt forgiveness early on only on privately held debt. Public debt apparently is incompatible with political voters that bailed out Greece. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Leto_loves_melange said:

Using Greece as an example: IMO, the Situation was that bankruptcy was incompatible with the EURO. They offered Greece an initial debt forgiveness early on only on privately held debt. Public debt apparently is incompatible with political voters that bailed out Greece. 

Not really, it would have been a mayor embarrassment for the European Central Bank, but besides that (and a weaker Euro) nothing much would have happened. In fact, that was the alternative everybody was getting ready for when the Greeks had their No referendum.

What all don't get is that if the Eurozone decides to continue using Euros the best that those who don't like it can do us weaken it. And given that most trade is done in dollars it would have given them some advantages. In fact, it was very much in the interest of the Europeans to weaken the Euro. Remember every rime it crept over 1.40 to the dollar the "Greek crisis" was back in the news to crash it down?

Now that there is no "Greek crisis" the ECB had to do what all other central banks do: "Quantitative Easing", which only means that they are printing more money. The problem with that is that sooner or later the cycle will change and then there will be lots of money around that can't be collected anymore. And that will create new problems.

Now, if the Brexiters think that thew same applies to the crashing pound: If you export more than you import to get your economy running smoothly it is in your advantage to have a soft currency. If you import more than you export it is in the interest of your economy to have a hard currency. Britain was in a 32 billion deficit in the first quarter of this year. So the advantage would be a hard pound.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Nnicolette said:

Isnt this in the bible?

Huh?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, and then said:

I can certainly see some advantage for the possibility of better security for smaller states in this new system.  The idea that the diverse cultures of Europe could be legislated out of existence to form one monolithic power structure with a leadership accountable to NO ONE really is - or should be - scary as hell.  Of course there would be less chance of warfare within the union.  It would also keep Mad Vlad and his successors at bay, probably.  My guess is that the youth who have become accustomed to thinking of themselves as Europeans and not Germans, Irish or Polish will eventually bring this monstrosity of a modern Mittelteuropa to life.  Perhaps it's time for the nations of Europe to turn from their historic roots and traditions and embrace a new way forward but the idea that trading local leadership which is accountable on some level to far distant leaders who are absolutely untouchable seems too much like our Federal experiment here.  The true madness is that at least here we have some semblance of power through the ballot.  This brave new European sounds more like a drone to me.  God help the non conformists...

Well, what you’re picturing would be European equivalent of USA. That won’t happen. Simply because we’re not nations immigrating into new lands, losing touch with our geographical roots, making new identity of an American newcomer. Your nation wasn’t formed of native Ohioans and Floridians and such, your nation was formed from boatloads of European hunger refugees, basically.

 

While EU is forming through connecting existing nations in their natural habitat. There simply is no reason why anyone would stop being of any European nation, by becoming aware they are European.

 

Europe should and inevitably will connect. Mitteleuropa first, despite being forcibly kept divided between blocs, her chunks assigned new identities that did not take root. There's the lesson, right there. Europe is not creating new, monstrous identity, Europe is restoring her natural identity. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, seeder said:

what if everything just stayed the same? Would that be so bad?

Absolutely not. It would be just fine. There's no point in forcing anything. Forced things collapse. 

Personally, I'm not vindictive enough to rejoice at apparent UK integrity problem. I wish you consolidate yourself first, then think of your role in EU.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And to the Russian troll: if you want Greece out of Europe, you pay for their easy bureaucratic, unproductive living and insatiable appetites of their politicians. The last actually working Greeks would be grateful, I guess. It should be easy for you, clear from any debt. lol. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Nnicolette said:

Isnt this in the bible?

No, the biblical beast with its multiple heads was clearly the Confederation. The Revelation was fulfilled with American Civil War and you’re now living in the Old Testament heaven.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

No, the biblical beast with its multiple heads was clearly the Confederation. The Revelation was fulfilled with American Civil War and you’re now living in the Old Testament heaven.

 

Now, now!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Not really, it would have been a mayor embarrassment for the European Central Bank, but besides that (and a weaker Euro) nothing much would have happened. In fact, that was the alternative everybody was getting ready for when the Greeks had their No referendum.

What all don't get is that if the Eurozone decides to continue using Euros the best that those who don't like it can do us weaken it. And given that most trade is done in dollars it would have given them some advantages. In fact, it was very much in the interest of the Europeans to weaken the Euro. Remember every rime it crept over 1.40 to the dollar the "Greek crisis" was back in the news to crash it down?

Now that there is no "Greek crisis" the ECB had to do what all other central banks do: "Quantitative Easing", which only means that they are printing more money. The problem with that is that sooner or later the cycle will change and then there will be lots of money around that can't be collected anymore. And that will create new problems.

Now, if the Brexiters think that thew same applies to the crashing pound: If you export more than you import to get your economy running smoothly it is in your advantage to have a soft currency. If you import more than you export it is in the interest of your economy to have a hard currency. Britain was in a 32 billion deficit in the first quarter of this year. So the advantage would be a hard pound.

 

Its debatable whether wholesale Greek debt forgiveness would have little or no effect on the euro or for the world economy for that matter. What's to stop other Euro countries from just throwing up their hands and claiming bankruptcies?

You're right in saying that the Euro is geared up for the German export driven economy and the result of a brexit on Britain will be massive competitive reforms... something that Boris, Nigel and Gove failed to mention.   

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Leto_loves_melange said:

Its debatable whether wholesale Greek debt forgiveness would have little or no effect on the euro or for the world economy for that matter. What's to stop other Euro countries from just throwing up their hands and claiming bankruptcies?

You're right in saying that the Euro is geared up for the German export driven economy and the result of a brexit on Britain will be massive competitive reforms... something that Boris, Nigel and Gove failed to mention.   

Nobody said anything about "forgiving" any debt. In fact, that will only happen at a time that Greece demonstrates it can survive on the money they are making themselves. I was talking about bankruptcy, which would mean that Greece would have been incapable of repaying its debt.

As for the repercussions of that: it would not really have mattered whether the ECB and other European states would have propped up those not getting re-payed (in as far as they were Europeans) or giving Greece the money to repay. After all, it came out of the same pocket and ended in the same hands

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, questionmark said:

Nobody said anything about "forgiving" any debt. In fact, that will only happen at a time that Greece demonstrates it can survive on the money they are making themselves. I was talking about bankruptcy, which would mean that Greece would have been incapable of repaying its debt.

As for the repercussions of that: it would not really have mattered whether the ECB and other European states would have propped up those not getting re-payed (in as far as they were Europeans) or giving Greece the money to repay. After all, it came out of the same pocket and ended in the same hands

Well Greece has balanced its budget for a while. Where is that debt relief? The money that the Europeans have been paying Greece doesn't get to Greece at all. Like you said they pay out predominately French and German banks and the ECB takes the Greek debt onto its own books. Britain's politicians should have taken note of what has happened to Greece and how Greece was punished. And Greece was unfairly punished...against the spirt of European solidarity.  

Edited by Leto_loves_melange
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Leto_loves_melange said:

Well Greece has balanced its budget for a while. Where is that debt relief? The money that the Europeans have been have been paying Greece doesn't get to Greece at all. Like you said they pay out predominately French and German banks and the ECB takes the Greek debt onto its own books. Britain's politicians should have taken note of what has happened to Greece and how Greece was punished. And Greece was unfairly punished...against the spirt of European solidarity.  

It will come, after the German and French elections. It will be hard to sell before the elections in the countries that Greece owes most money.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.