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European Superstate to form


Farmer77

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1 minute ago, questionmark said:

It will come, after the German and French elections. It will be hard to sell before the elections in the countries that Greece owes most money.

 

For the sake of the Greek people i hope you're right, but something tells me that Greece is being driven hard to get the maximum outta them. They got no one to blame but themselves i guess. 

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2 hours ago, questionmark said:

Wait, lets get this clear, if a person is so deep in debt that he cannot repay and its creditors restructure it (and even forgive parts of it) so he/she does not have to declare bankruptcy and the only condition is to not spend more than he/she is making is taking advantage of that person?

So why is it different for a state?

 

That's not what I meant by being taken advantage of. As for your answer, the situation is not as simplistic as all that. I can give the more detail economic analysis later when I have more time, but the long and short of it is, if Greece was not part of the EU at the time of the Lehman Brothers fiasco, it would not be in the position it's in now. Furthermore, don't for a moment think the EU is doing Greece any favors. The bailout and the terms of it was a failure. The IMF even stated as much. Under the weight of such measures (measures which hit the poorest the hardest), it's no surprise the economy went into a death spiral. So how then could they possibly be expected to get themselves in a position to pay that debt? In the meantime, it's creditors are buying up state owned money earning properties and businesses for mere pennies.

But yeah, maybe we should take this discussion all the way back to 1953 and the Marshall Plan, and then we can talk about who's taking advantage of who.

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1 minute ago, Clair said:

That's not what I meant by being taken advantage of. As for your answer, the situation is not as simplistic as all that. I can give the more detail economic analysis later when I have more time, but the long and short of it is, if Greece was not part of the EU at the time of the Lehman Brothers fiasco, it would not be in the position it's in now. Furthermore, don't for a moment think the EU is doing Greece any favors. The bailout and the terms of it was a failure. The IMF even stated as much. Under the weight of such measures (measures which hit the poorest the hardest), it's no surprise the economy went into a death spiral. So how then could they possibly be expected to get themselves in a position to pay that debt? In the meantime, it's creditors are buying up state owned money earning properties and businesses for mere pennies.

But yeah, maybe we should take this discussion all the way back to 1953 and the Marshall Plan, and then we can talk about who's taking advantage of who.

Greece would have been there or part of the 3d world. I know Greece before the EU and Greece after the EU.

 

 

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Just now, questionmark said:

Greece would have been there or part of the 3d world. I know Greece before the EU and Greece after the EU.

So do I and I disagree.

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2 minutes ago, Clair said:

So do I and I disagree.

Then show me how Greece would have come to the apparent state of well-to-do without most of the money coming from political nepotism.

 

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Just now, questionmark said:

Then show me how Greece would have come to the apparent state of well-to-do without mist of the money coming from political nepotism.

Show me how they wouldn't have.

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Just now, Clair said:

Show me how they wouldn't have.

That is very simple: besides what was subsidized by the EU (in private and public works) nothing happened except the likes of Onassis exploiting legal loopholes in foreign countries  to get richer. About every resort all along the place as well as about every factory was paid up to 75% by the EU Leader programs... and just as many closed its doors as soon as the mandatory 5 years after which the subsidies had not to be paid back passed.

There is no road, bridge, airport or port that has not been paid by either Leader I or Leader II (unless older than 30 years). And anyone who knows Greece also knows the big signs at about every public work that say paid by the EU. And why were they paid by the EU? Because Greece never had enough money to do it itself (because else they would not have fallen under Leader qualifiers).

 

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3 minutes ago, questionmark said:

That is very simple: besides what was subsidized by the EU (in private and public works) nothing happened except the likes of Onassis exploiting legal loopholes in foreign countries  to get richer. About every resort all along the place as well as about every factory was paid up to 75% by the EU Leader programs... and just as many closed its doors as soon as the mandatory 5 years after which the subsidies had not to be paid back passed.

There is no road, bridge, airport or port that has not been paid by either Leader I or Leader II (unless older than 30 years). And anyone who knows Greece also knows the big signs at about every public work that say paid by the EU. And why were they paid by the EU? Because Greece never had enough money to do it itself (because else they would not have fallen under Leader qualifiers).

 

It's not that simple. Subsidies or not, you still cannot suggest that Greece would have been a third world country if not for the EU based on such a simplistic analysis. Furthermore, if the EU was of such benefit to Greece, then why is it a third world country now? Indeed, why allow Greece into the EU to begin with? It was no secret that they (amd other countries fudged their books). And what about Goldman Sach's role in all of this? And what about what happened in 2008? I'm not suggesting that Greece is without blame, but one needs to look at the entire picture (and years of it) to really understand the situation as it stands today. Maybe Greece would have been a third world country, maybe it wouldn't have. But I highly doubt they would have been anywhere near as third world as they are now.

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Just now, Clair said:

It's not that simple. Subsidies or not, you still cannot suggest that Greece would have been a third world country if not for the EU based on such a simplistic analysis. Furthermore, if the EU was of such benefit to Greece, then why is it a third world country now? Indeed, why allow Greece into the EU to begin with? It was no secret that they (amd other countries fudged their books). And what about Goldman Sach's role in all of this? And what about what happened in 2008? I'm not suggesting that Greece is without blame, but one needs to look at the entire picture (and years of it) to really understand the situation as it stands today. Maybe Greece would have been a third world country, maybe it wouldn't have. But I highly doubt they would have been anywhere near as third world as they are now.

Because the Greek leadership kept themselves in power by a simple method, creating jobs that nobody had a need for in government and paying it with credits they took. Besides that, they were keeping the armed forces happy by buying them toys (i.e. 2 Howaldwerft top of the line submarines) that they did not have the money for either. Add to that free healthcare (no, not insurance paid like in most countries, the hospitals in Greece were free), the mandatory retirement (no, you could not just keep on making whatever you did after the cut-off age)  and you have a few good reasons why they ended up in the ditch.

Without the EU Greece would have been as badly if not worse off than Albania (that at least occasionally got some money from Uncle Mao, Uncle Joe, Uncle Zhirkov and Uncle Tito), especially after the mess the colonels made in the 70s.

 

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Just now, questionmark said:

Without the EU Greece would have been as badly if not worse off than Albania (that at least occasionally got some money from Uncle Mao, Uncle Joe, Uncle Zhirkov and Uncle Tito), especially after the mess the colonels made in the 70s.

The EU is not and never was Greece's savior. It was their nemesis.

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1 minute ago, Clair said:

The EU is not and never was Greece's savior. It was their nemesis.

Try to convince the Greeks of that (and don't confuse the No vote to the credits with a No vote to the Union), I guess they can decide that best.

 

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5 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Well, what you’re picturing would be European equivalent of USA. That won’t happen. Simply because we’re not nations immigrating into new lands, losing touch with our geographical roots, making new identity of an American newcomer. Your nation wasn’t formed of native Ohioans and Floridians and such, your nation was formed from boatloads of European hunger refugees, basically.

 

 

 

While EU is forming through connecting existing nations in their natural habitat. There simply is no reason why anyone would stop being of any European nation, by becoming aware they are European.

 

 

Europe should and inevitably will connect. Mitteleuropa first, despite being forcibly kept divided between blocs, her chunks assigned new identities that did not take root. There's the lesson, right there. Europe is not creating new, monstrous identity, Europe is restoring her natural identity. 

 

Okay, I can see your point though I still believe that for people to be invested in such a union to the point of being willing at some point to die for it in a common military they would have to have more of a sense of being European than, Bosnian or Serb or Romanian, etc. As the institutions and education of members of this new union progressed, the youth would naturally cease considering themselves as separate in any way from the whole.  Also the major point I was trying to make is that this new state would be led by un-elected, unaccountable technocrats with real power to do harm in local communities.   Governments that aspire to greater control have always been an indicator of approaching tyranny.  Always, Helen.  I hope your confidence in this new state is well founded but it would be unique in modern history if it is.  Even leaders who are accountable through a ballot may become corrupt - as our system in the US proves.  But to BEGIN an experiment that assumes no voice for the people in any meaningful way just seems madness to me.

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3 hours ago, and then said:

Okay, I can see your point though I still believe that for people to be invested in such a union to the point of being willing at some point to die for it in a common military they would have to have more of a sense of being European than, Bosnian or Serb or Romanian, etc. As the institutions and education of members of this new union progressed, the youth would naturally cease considering themselves as separate in any way from the whole.  Also the major point I was trying to make is that this new state would be led by un-elected, unaccountable technocrats with real power to do harm in local communities.   Governments that aspire to greater control have always been an indicator of approaching tyranny.  Always, Helen.  I hope your confidence in this new state is well founded but it would be unique in modern history if it is.  Even leaders who are accountable through a ballot may become corrupt - as our system in the US proves.  But to BEGIN an experiment that assumes no voice for the people in any meaningful way just seems madness to me.

National identities are not the final division. You have further regional, ethnic, cultural and subcultural divisions that can be ridiculously microscopic and ridiculously bitter (people sometimes die for supporting the wrong football team). Then you already have identities that include few nations, without any damage to the national identity.

How large identity circle we choose from many that we already have depends on the enemy. On how large identity scale the enemy was defined will determine what scale of our existing identity we will be willing to die for.  

Ultimately, if the aliens attack, we’d die for human identity. Until then :D we’ll hinder each other on various identity levels because that’s that human nature worth dying for :D

 

Oh, no, no... this is how it works: 

The European Parliament is the EU's law-making body. It is directly elected by EU voters every 5 years. The last elections were in May 2014.

 

http://europa.eu/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-parliament/index_en.htm

 

And they will keep that, just like national states keep that, because both bureaucrats and the masses like elections. We all know how much they change, but we love them.  

And to be very honest, I'm not as afraid of electoral frauds as I'm afraid of idiots in power. Complete idiots often do great in elections, because - well, average citizen is an idiot too.  

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I believe you are mistaken. Revelations doesnt refer to the civil war but to european countries uniting under on law. Here is a random link but if you look at what i mean you will see this is exactly what they predicted.  http://www.revelationofjesus.net/important-questions/is-the-european-union-predicted-in-prophecy.html

Edited by Nnicolette
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4 hours ago, Nnicolette said:

I believe you are mistaken. Revelations doesnt refer to the civil war but to european countries uniting under on law. Here is a random link but if you look at what i mean you will see this is exactly what they predicted.  http://www.revelationofjesus.net/important-questions/is-the-european-union-predicted-in-prophecy.html

I don't know who has so much times to waste as to try to predict something that JC himself said he did not know.

So far they were all wrong. And there is scant doubt that those continuing in this (BTW, forbidden in the bible) future gazing will also be wrong. And with that we come to the last point to make about this: JC was already pretty dead (and maybe in heaven) by the time a certain John (where it is pretty unknown if it was John the Apostle or John of Patmos.) wrote the thing. (If it was John of Patmos, as most likely, if it is Gods revelation, He must have changed his mind about drunkenness).

All Christian reformers have ignored the thing, Luther even called it "neither apostolic nor prophetic", Calvin refused to consider it. Yet people still are trying to use it as guide to their life and guide their actions by it.

Edited by questionmark
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6 hours ago, Nnicolette said:

I believe you are mistaken. Revelations doesnt refer to the civil war but to european countries uniting under on law. Here is a random link but if you look at what i mean you will see this is exactly what they predicted.  http://www.revelationofjesus.net/important-questions/is-the-european-union-predicted-in-prophecy.html

I was sarcastic. See my reply to questionmark for the explanation why I was sarcastic. 

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2 hours ago, questionmark said:

I don't know who has so much times to waste as to try to predict something that JC himself said he did not know.

So far they were all wrong. And there is scant doubt that those continuing in this (BTW, forbidden in the bible) future gazing will also be wrong. And with that we come to the last point to make about this: JC was already pretty dead (and maybe in heaven) by the time a certain John (where it is pretty unknown if it was John the Apostle or John of Patmos.) wrote the thing. (If it was John of Patmos, as most likely, if it is Gods revelation, He must have changed his mind about drunkenness).

All Christian reformers have ignored the thing, Luther even called it "neither apostolic nor prophetic", Calvin refused to consider it. Yet people still are trying to use it as guide to their life and guide their actions by it.

This!

For a Christian, predicting the time of the end of the world is not just futile, it's also blasphemy because trying to predict something Jesus clearly said he didn't know would be trying to put yourself above Jesus. No Christian can have news more relevant than those delivered by Jesus.  

 

Not that I'm religious, I just read the New Testament. 

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21 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Oh, no, no... this is how it works: 

 

The European Parliament is the EU's law-making body. It is directly elected by EU voters every 5 years. The last elections were in May 2014.

nd they will keep that, just like national states keep that, because both bureaucrats and the masses like elections. We all know how much they change, but we love them.  

And to be very honest, I'm not as afraid of electoral frauds as I'm afraid of idiots in power. Complete idiots often do great in elections, because - well, average citizen is an idiot too.  

Except... that only the unelected Commission can propose new laws. The European Parliament cannot even propose new legislation.

This is the Democratic Deficit that pervades every fibre of the EU - and it will only become less democratic as time goes on.

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34 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Except... that only the unelected Commission can propose new laws. The European Parliament cannot even propose new legislation.

This is the Democratic Deficit that pervades every fibre of the EU - and it will only become less democratic as time goes on.

Here's one of many places to start informing yourself: 

http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm

How EU decisions are made

 

The EU’s standard decision-making procedure is known as

'Ordinary Legislative Procedure’ (ex "codecision"). This means that

the directly elected European Parliament has to approve EU legislation

together with the Council (the governments of the 28 EU countries).

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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34 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Except... that only the unelected Commission can propose new laws. The European Parliament cannot even propose new legislation.

This is the Democratic Deficit that pervades every fibre of the EU - and it will only become less democratic as time goes on.

Where, again, you are wrong. The head of the commission is the #1 on the party list that wins the European elections. In this case the #1 of the European Popular party. The rest are proposed (by elected national governments) and approved (or not) by the European parliament. That is how the executive is elected in most countries in the world.

Now, that Britain was never properly represented in Brussels has two reasons, one that Britain kept electing people who were doing the best to sabotage the EU and second because of this

And you may notice that the article appeared in a pro-Brexit British newspaper.

 

Edited by questionmark
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.

 

The bigger an organization gets - the less power the individual citizens have - MEPs are representing vast numbers of people -

They cannot possible actually represent all the people they are supposed to - 

This is a natural consequence of representative democracy - but the more that high numbers of people are lumped together it is logical
to say that the less they will be adequately represented -- ?

.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, bee said:

.

 

The bigger an organization gets - the less power the individual citizens have - MEPs are representing vast numbers of people -

They cannot possible actually represent all the people they are supposed to - 

This is a natural consequence of representative democracy - but the more that high numbers of people are lumped together it is logical
to say that the less they will be adequately represented -- ?

.

 

 

especially then when they have no intention to represent anybody but their own agenda.

 

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26 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Here's one of many places to start informing yourself: 

http://europa.eu/eu-law/decision-making/procedures/index_en.htm

How EU decisions are made

 

 

 

 

As always - pro EU folk ignore what is actually the truth.

ONLY THE COMMISSION (UNELECTED) CAN PROPOSE NEW LEGISLATION).

Yes this has got to get Parliamentary approval - but the EU Parliament cannot propose Legislation.

Which part of this fact do you or QM not understand???

Edited by keithisco
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11 minutes ago, keithisco said:

As always - pro EU folk ignore what is actually the truth.

ONLY THE COMMISSION (UNELECTED) CAN PROPOSE NEW LEGISLATION).

Yes this has got to get Parliamentary approval - but the EU Parliament cannot propose Legislation.

Which part of this fact do you or QM not understand???

Where you are saying the half truth: only the commission can send legislation to the parliament. Legislation can be proposed by many different venues, including the parliament and by popular demand.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, keithisco said:

As always - pro EU folk ignore what is actually the truth.

ONLY THE COMMISSION (UNELECTED) CAN PROPOSE NEW LEGISLATION).

Yes this has got to get Parliamentary approval - but the EU Parliament cannot propose Legislation.

Which part of this fact do you or QM not understand???

Which part of the 'elected directly' or 'elected by national governments' you do not understand?

You've been swindled by outright lying Brexiters. EU works on the same democratic principles any of our countries does, only even more openly. They have to. 

I'm surprised you folks didn't check if various Nigels are telling you the truth or scary stories. 

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