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Thanato

When was America Great?

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Jarocal
1 minute ago, questionmark said:

We should, instead of playing the hare and turtle game, concentrate on something with a future. Not on investing money in jobs that are becoming more and more obsolete.

 

But those 40% are not obsolete, they are outsourced. Where did I mention investing money into obsolete jobs? Manufacturing of goods is a necessary sector that is needed and it is in our best interest if we are the ones with a strong manufacturing base from which innovation can flourish. 

 

Giovanni Arrighi has a book published "The Long Twentieth Century". While I disagree with his political idealogies, it is a fairly good examination of the "rise of empires" through capital accumulation and their subsequent loss of influence/power as they phase out agrarian and manufacturing for higher short term yields in banking, and other service sectors. If his examination is Accurate American influence peaked in the late 1980's/1990's and we are on a slow decline while China and to a lesser extent India will be rising.

 

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70's peace-movement, sexual revolution and the civil rights movement, these were quite inspirational. Apart from these, maybe before the arrival of the Europeans it was great. However, I agree that she is probably the greatest country on earth.

Edited by hellwyr

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questionmark
Just now, Jarocal said:

But those 40% are not obsolete, they are outsourced. Where did I mention investing money into obsolete jobs? Manufacturing of goods is a necessary sector that is needed and it is in our best interest if we are the ones with a strong manufacturing base from which innovation can flourish. 

 

Giovanni Arrighi has a book published "The Long Twentieth Century". While I disagree with his political idealogies, it is a fairly good examination of the "rise of empires" through capital accumulation and their subsequent loss of influence/power as they phase out agrarian and manufacturing for higher short term yields in banking, and other service sectors. If his examination is Accurate American influence peaked in the late 1980's/1990's and we are on a slow decline while China and to a lesser extent India will be rising.

 

As long as they need our goods (which they do, and be it only corn) it would be very dumb of us to try to keep theirs out. Besides, with the next generation of robots another 10% of the jobs will be obsolete.

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1 minute ago, hellwyr said:

70's peace-movement, sexual revolution and the civil rights movement, these were quite inspirational. Apart from these, maybe before the arrival of the Europeans it was great. However, I agree that she is probably the greatest country on earth.

given how ravaged an polluted Europe was from the Middle Ages to the time of Columbus that would be difficult to deny.

 

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Montmorency the Dog
1 minute ago, questionmark said:

given how ravaged an polluted Europe was from the Middle Ages to the time of Columbus that would be difficult to deny.

 

Polluted? 

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.ZZ.

Post WWII from 1945 to 1963.

We had national pride and manufactured the best products in the world.

The wheels fell off in 1963 after JFK was assassinated and LBJ escalated the Vietnam debacle. 

On the bright side, after November 8 2016 we will "Make America great again".

 

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simplybill
22 minutes ago, questionmark said:

The Chinese just bought one of the world's biggest robot maker (unless the EU still throws a spanner into the works), good luck competing.

I was using that as just one example. 

 

21 minutes ago, questionmark said:

We should, instead of playing the hare and turtle game, concentrate on something with a future. Not on investing money in jobs that are becoming more and more obsolete.

 

You're absolutely right. We need people who foresee the imminent demise of the 'buggy whip' industries, and are then creative enough to envision the replacement industries. 

Mr. Trump isn't my idea of the best possible candidate, but if he hires the right advisors, I believe he has a chance to revive American industry. 

By the way, I nominate Malcolm Gladwell as Advisor-in-Chief. That guy gets it.

 

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Just now, Otto von Pickelhaube said:

Polluted? 

Read up on the MA and how many European rivers were clean (none with a city on its banks), the streets were filled with garbage and the place smelled horridly. Most forests had been cut down to smelter ore.. to the point that instead of Sherwood forest the place would have better been called Sherwood hedge.

 

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Jarocal
1 minute ago, questionmark said:

As long as they need our goods (which they do, and be it only corn) it would be very dumb of us to try to keep theirs out. Besides, with the next generation of robots another 10% of the jobs will be obsolete.

At issue will be they aren't going to keep needing our corn. China is vigorously pursuing Agricultural investment to lessen dependency on our imports while at the same time our companies are giving them the technology advances that have kept some semblance of a competitive edge to our manufacturing. I am in no way advocating isolationism to prop up obsolete processes but it is the strong domestic manufacturing sector that led to the innovation we enjoyed.

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Just now, Jarocal said:

At issue will be they aren't going to keep needing our corn. China is vigorously pursuing Agricultural investment to lessen dependency on our imports while at the same time our companies are giving them the technology advances that have kept some semblance of a competitive edge to our manufacturing. I am in no way advocating isolationism to prop up obsolete processes but it is the strong domestic manufacturing sector that led to the innovation we enjoyed.

They will keep on needing it, unless their population starts shrinking fast. No sign of that on the horizon.

 

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Jarocal
3 minutes ago, questionmark said:

They will keep on needing it, unless their population starts shrinking fast. No sign of that on the horizon.

 

 Or until their quality control and practices methods close the production gap enough. How long will that be as we continue to hand over our technology and they grow their investments into innovative technology.

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Just now, Jarocal said:

 Or until their quality control and practices methods close the production gap enough. How long will that be as we continue to hand over our technology and they grow their investments into innovative technology.

I don't know what you mean by "our technology"? The Chinese and the Indians are developing different technologies faster than we are. Especially the Chinese. The age of "copy the West"  is over.

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simplybill
30 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

Spoken like a true shop-floor representative. Management must love you!

And I mean that sincerely, management loves anyone who promotes the workplace as being a "bastion of equality", because it makes their job of lording it over you so much easier!

That's my point, Leo. Profit-sharing programs reduce the amount of 'Lording Over' by management because everyone in the company has a common goal: a successful, profit-enhancing company.

As a common working stiff, I'm happy being as productive as possible, knowing I'll soon be seeing a big, fat profit-sharing check. 

It's a win-win for everybody: Workers, Managers, customers, suppliers, etc. There's absolutely no downside. 

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Leonardo
2 minutes ago, simplybill said:

That's my point, Leo. Profit-sharing programs reduce the amount of 'Lording Over' by management because everyone in the company has a common goal: a successful, profit-enhancing company.

As a common working stiff, I'm happy being as productive as possible, knowing I'll soon be seeing a big, fat profit-sharing check. 

It's a win-win for everybody: Workers, Managers, customers, suppliers, etc. There's absolutely no downside. 

I see your point when companies operate a profit-sharing scheme, but they are very much a minority - and I don't see Trump as being a champion for such schemes?

Edited by Leonardo

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Jarocal
5 minutes ago, questionmark said:

I don't know what you mean by "our technology"? The Chinese and the Indians are developing different technologies faster than we are. Especially the Chinese. The age of "copy the West"  is over.

Since the age of "copy the west" is over, why do you believe in a continued reliance on our cereal crops as they continue to invest heavily in their own infrastructure systems and agricultural sectors as our infrastructure systems are decaying or becoming outdated and our Agricultural sector productivity gains have leveled off if one accounts for resource usage in production.

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simplybill
10 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

I see your point when companies operate a profit-sharing scheme, but they are very much a minority - and I don't see Trump as being a champion for such schemes?

Yes, they are a minority, and I don't understand why! Honestly, even the greediest of the caricature 'evil corporations' should be able to see the potential profits. I don't get it. 

Regarding  Trump:

I don't know if Trump owns any businesses that offer profit-sharing plans. Last I heard, he owns about 150 businesses. It would be interesting to see a list of them. 

Edited by simplybill
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Just now, Jarocal said:

Since the age of "copy the west" is over, why do you believe in a continued reliance on our cereal crops as they continue to invest heavily in their own infrastructure systems and agricultural sectors as our infrastructure systems are decaying or becoming outdated and our Agricultural sector productivity gains have leveled off if one accounts for resource usage in production.

Yes, we have something they don't have: lots of agricultural usable fertile land. Their lands are burned out.

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Just now, simplybill said:

Yes, they are a minority, and I don't understand why! Honestly, even the greediest of the caricature 'evil corporations' should be able to see the potential profits. I don't get it. 

simple: eating makes fat and gathering makes rich.

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Jarocal
Just now, questionmark said:

Yes, we have something they don't have: lots of agricultural usable fertile land. Their lands are burned out.

They are investing in large swaths of arable land in multiple countries including the U.S.

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questionmark
Just now, Jarocal said:

They are investing in large swaths of arable land in multiple countries including the U.S.

well, no matter who owns it: we still get the revenue for it.

 

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Thorvir
33 minutes ago, ZZ430 said:

Post WWII from 1945 to 1963.

We had national pride and manufactured the best products in the world.

The wheels fell off in 1963 after JFK was assassinated and LBJ escalated the Vietnam debacle. 

80s and early 90s as well, though it started eroding once Clinton took office.  Early 2000's started to look good, then the bottom fell out badly when unjust war was brought to our soil.

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and then
43 minutes ago, questionmark said:

We should, instead of playing the hare and turtle game, concentrate on something with a future. Not on investing money in jobs that are becoming more and more obsolete.

 

I agree.  I also believe that intentionally shutting down industries like coal in an area of the country that's already economically devastated is evil.  Dumping massive amounts of regulation on businesses that cause them so much expense to comply that they can't make a profit and shut down is no solution either.  Regulation is necessary, crippling restrictions to completely turn an industry around over night is not.  This administration has made new business creation more difficult at every turn.  Those with money decided just to wait him out and hope for better times.  It looks like they'll be waiting a while longer or investing somewhere else.  Unless she turns to outright confiscation, she'll be thwarted also.

As to the OP - America was great when she wasn't DIVIDED.  I think it would be impossible to bring a couple hundred million human beings who have diverse backgrounds and customs into one location and expect them to prosper unless they were invested in an idea so universal and fundamental that they would risk almost anything to be a part of it.  Greatness isn't always measured in industrial output or scientific prowess though both are indicators of it.  It isn't about winning wars or AVOIDING wars, but that also comes with the title.  America was great when the citizens had a decent chance to work and have dignity.  It was great when her leaders (mostly) knew they were the servants, not the masters.  We were great when we believed in the ideals of our founders instead of finding ways to remove all references to them because their ideas on morality didn't match those currently in vogue.  Those outside this nation have every right to an opinion about America.  Our footsteps tend to do damage when our leaders (like the current one) are destructive and stupid.  

3 hours ago, Thanato said:

When was it greater then it is right now? In terms of equality, never. In terms of human rights, never. In terms of economic strength, never.

Yet we are told we don't do enough for equality.  We mouth platitudes about human rights and bomb defenseless people - granted, we often do it in error but it still looks hypocritical and "economic strength"?  Really?  19 Trillion dollar debt and rising.  NO ONE talking about even slowing the spending.  In a real world that's called bankruptcy on a criminal scale.  The whole world is changing and it's becoming an increasingly frightening place for most people.  There is a normal reaction for people to look back to when things were better and Populism uses that approach, no news there.  But AS an American, yes, a white, middle aged man who never had a lot of wealth, I can say there WAS a better America.  Not just for myself but for most of those who called themselves by that name.  There was never a PERFECT America but it was the desire of the nations for a very long time.  It was hope.  It was the dream.  It seems maybe that all those jumping on the anti Trump band wagon think his brand of change is unacceptable.  You must like what you see around you today if you think Hillary is a better choice, because she's already promised to "stay the course" in so many words.

Trump gives the impression of being a dim witted clown.  Remember the former actor everyone on the Left laughed at?  I think Trump may be a mistake as president but I KNOW Hillary Clinton will be a disaster.  

It seems to me that since everyone is affected by America, everyone ought to be hoping for better than we've had.

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Gromdor
23 minutes ago, simplybill said:

That's my point, Leo. Profit-sharing programs reduce the amount of 'Lording Over' by management because everyone in the company has a common goal: a successful, profit-enhancing company.

As a common working stiff, I'm happy being as productive as possible, knowing I'll soon be seeing a big, fat profit-sharing check. 

It's a win-win for everybody: Workers, Managers, customers, suppliers, etc. There's absolutely no downside. 

One of the first companies I worked for had profit sharing.  Unfortunately, what the owner didn't tell everyone was that he was reinvesting a good portion of the income into the company and increasing his and his wife's wages before determining "profit".  So every other year the company was suffering a loss and the employees got nothing.

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and then
35 minutes ago, questionmark said:

 

38 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

 Or until their quality control and practices methods close the production gap enough. How long will that be as we continue to hand over our technology and they grow their investments into innovative technology.

I don't know what you mean by "our technology"? The Chinese and the Indians are developing different technologies faster than we are. Especially the Chinese. The age of "copy the West"  is over.

 

Really?  Do their hackers know about this?  They mostly don't even bother to try and improve our designs before they put them in the air.  I have no doubt that they are good engineers.  Starting with a very completely integrated system from an R/D perspective gives them a little uh, boost though, wouldn't you admit?

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Jarocal
Just now, questionmark said:

well, no matter who owns it: we still get the revenue for it.

 

How do we get revenue from their investments in Africa and South America? 

 The "it doesn't matter who owns/makes it as long as we get revenue from it" to me is an absurd and shortsighted argument. As you have already pointed out their rate of innovation is on the rise. They are developing infrastructure upgrades  while we seem content to ride out on current royalty/licensing fees that are not going to last. 

We in my opinion do need to invest in manufacturing again. I'm not advocating government subsidation of outdated processes. I am in favor of incentives that drive domestic production and innovation. Relax zoning regulations, licensing, and other policies that cripple small scale entrepreneurial endeavors. 

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