Brexit

[skookum]

Amazing that Bremaniacs still think it is ok to exploit Eastern Europeans in order to keep Taxi journey's cheap and underpay people for back breaking work.

Taxi's are a luxury item, there is no need for them to be super cheap and no excuse to exploit foreign workers.

I said before in another post, the guy on the TV debate argued that we need a constant stream of cheap labour to make sure we have people to wipe our backsides in care homes when we get old.  Must be a lovely concept for a European worker coming to the UK, you are being let in to do virtually slave labour.

I am far more worried about British Morales than cheap taxis and cheap fruit.

BTW, I work in the taxi business and European workers from outside the UK represent the smallish percentage of the work force.  Out of 200, there are under 5.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by skookum

[doomjeffs]

13 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I've seen people literally calling for the execution of remainers. That doesn't really sound democratic to me. 

Get over to The Guardian......you'll find exactly the opposite by the bucket load.

[GlitterRose]

12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Link, please?

It was a Brexit discussion on this site. I don't remember who said it, but they were literally arguing that remainers should be executed. 

I tried to find the comment, but some Brexit discussions have like 90 pages. I couldn't find it. I don't even know if it would still be there, because a comment like that might have been removed, but I certainly saw it. 

Here's an article, though...

Ukip councillor Terence Nathan says 'Remainers should be killed until Article 50 invoked'

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiwo_73_qfOAhVCPCYKHchGAdcQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fcrime%2Fukip-councillor-terence-nathan-says-remainers-should-be-killed-until-article-50-invoked-a7147021.html&usg=AFQjCNH7pGgbbj3l3sR5FCg2wFybhPEOMg

Edited August 4, 2016 by ChaosRose

[GlitterRose]

40 minutes ago, doomjeffs said:

Get over to The Guardian......you'll find exactly the opposite by the bucket load.

But there's one person who was actually killed. 

[toast]

On 3.8.2016 at 0:48 AM, alibongo said:

... in 12 months time, those Syrian refugees who have bothered to accept refugee status in Germany will have German passports and be allowed free entry to the UK

Thats incorrect as the refugees dont get German passports which are only granted by a.) birth in Germany or b.), by naturalization. I think you are talking about the Refugee travel document as per (Geneva) 1951 Refugee Convention. But even with this document Syrian refugees cannot travel legal to the UK as they need a UK entrance visa in addition to the Refugee travel document.

Edited August 4, 2016 by toast

[questionmark]

39 minutes ago, toast said:

Thats incorrect as the refugees dont get German passports which are only granted by a.) birth in Germany or b.), by naturalization. I think you are talking about the Refugee travel document as per (Geneva) 1951 Refugee Convention. But even with this document Syrian refugees cannot travel legal to the UK as they need a UK entrance visa in addition to the Refugee travel document.

Well, you are almost correct, if the Syrian refugee was of German origin and his grandfather had been expulsed by the Nazis from Germany (or had to flee) he also would be entitled to a German passport even if he does not fulfill conditions a or b nor ever intends to take the German nationality.

But the rest is right.

 

[+Hammerclaw]

7 hours ago, Setton said:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ukip-councillor-terence-nathan-says-remainers-should-be-killed-until-article-50-invoked/ar-BBuzxDV?ocid=spartanntp

So, one nut case justifies libeling the majority of British voters. Got it.

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

It was a Brexit discussion on this site. I don't remember who said it, but they were literally arguing that remainers should be executed. 

I tried to find the comment, but some Brexit discussions have like 90 pages. I couldn't find it. I don't even know if it would still be there, because a comment like that might have been removed, but I certainly saw it. 

Here's an article, though...

Ukip councillor Terence Nathan says 'Remainers should be killed until Article 50 invoked'

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiwo_73_qfOAhVCPCYKHchGAdcQFggeMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fcrime%2Fukip-councillor-terence-nathan-says-remainers-should-be-killed-until-article-50-invoked-a7147021.html&usg=AFQjCNH7pGgbbj3l3sR5FCg2wFybhPEOMg

So, if find one remainer who wants to kill brexiters I'm free brand all the remainers as the same? Sounds like an excellent way to not have a conversation, doesn't it?

[hetrodoxly]

19 hours ago, alibongo said:

Nonsense.

I have always liked Pat Condell and his anti-religion stance, but the practicalities of implementing  Brexit are wrongly depicted. It is not about money.

(This is a side issue, but look at the two champions of Brexit- Farage and Boris. Farage is not very bright, Boris is very bright but devious and self-seeking).

These are the realities:

First, we already have considerable control on immigration, we just don't enforce it, we won't spend the money on immigration control and lack the bureaucracy to enforce it anyway-as many as one million failed asylum seekers are estimated to be living in the UK.

Second, our businesses actually need cheap European labour, so we won't be putting a stop to them entering the UK.

Third, EU subsidies prop up UK agriculture, culture and science, just to name three areas.

I'll give you two real examples of Brexitiers suddenly waking to smell the coffee- Ebbw Vale in Wales has received £600 Million over the last few years to rejuvenate the declined industrial towns- new schools, colleges,leisure centres and roads. They are now demanding central government match that. Will they get it - not a chance. Yet they were the highest voting Welsh area to vote Brexit (about 72%), with huge unemployment. So they have shot themselves in the foot in a big way.

Devon and Cornwall- again huge Brexit support, again demand and pleas to central government to maintain the massive support to fishing and agriculture they were receiving.

Do you think Boris gives a t--s for them now he has achieved a cabinet minister post? Think again.

The silly little middle Englanders carrying folded Daily Mails under their arms chuffing about "we won two world wars" need to get real.

 

 

Unlike you the people of  Ebbw Vale have a conscience willing to make sacrifices we voted against the multinationals and big business who want to keep a huge army of cheap labour, you're a working class traitor, where do you think Ebbw Vales money came from? of course they'll keep it stop scaremongering it's over go away and melt.

[itsnotoutthere]

19 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Honestly, people spout the word "democracy" as if they could pick it in their gardens.

*Newsflash* The EU, as an organisation, is just as "democratic" as the UK is. You don't choose who gets to be Chancellor, you don't choose who sits on various committees in parliament. The UK govt, as an organisation, operates exactly the same manner as the EU "govt" does. The people elect representatives and those representatives elect the people who take office, or sit on committees.

So, please do not patronise everyone with the excuse that Brexit was about "democracy" - it wasn't. It was about nationalism, and even that is a hypocrisy because the UK isn't one nation, it's a union (just like the EU, but on a smaller scale) of 4 nations.

Utter crap, It was all about democracy. But if you fell for the black propaganda that it was all about immigration then it worked on you.

In this country we vote in governments that offer policies roughly in tune with our own individual beliefs. If during their term in office we decide we don't like what they've done, we get the chance to vote them out of office when their time is up. That in a nut shell is the one time we have any say in the running of things, but it is precious & was hard fought for. There is no such option with regard to the E.U.

Ironic that the main group of people complaining (whinging) about the result is the younger contingent. The very same group that couldn't be arsed to put down their playstations & nintendos for 20 minutes and take a stroll to the polling station to put a cross in the appropriate box. Hopefully for them it will be a salutary lesson in how democracy really works & next time they'll make an effort, but some how I doubt it.

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by itsnotoutthere

[GlitterRose]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

So, if find one remainer who wants to kill brexiters I'm free brand all the remainers as the same? Sounds like an excellent way to not have a conversation, doesn't it?

I didn't say they all thought that, but when you have brexiters spouting that off (even a councilman), and there was already a remainer killed, claiming that the brexit folks are all about democracy doesn't seem accurate to me. I was responding to a comment that proposes the brexit vote was about democracy and not about nationalism.

Here is another article about the recent wave of hate crimes due to brexit...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwifrt6yrqjOAhXE7IMKHddCAI8QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fhome-news%2Fbrexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html&usg=AFQjCNHszZwTuSgtAL6IMXYrdR2X88F3gA

Edited August 4, 2016 by ChaosRose

[keithisco]

20 hours ago, alibongo said:

Nonsense.

I have always liked Pat Condell and his anti-religion stance, but the practicalities of implementing  Brexit are wrongly depicted. It is not about money.

(This is a side issue, but look at the two champions of Brexit- Farage and Boris. Farage is not very bright, Boris is very bright but devious and self-seeking).

These are the realities:

First, we already have considerable control on immigration, we just don't enforce it, we won't spend the money on immigration control and lack the bureaucracy to enforce it anyway-as many as one million failed asylum seekers are estimated to be living in the UK.

Second, our businesses actually need cheap European labour, so we won't be putting a stop to them entering the UK.

Third, EU subsidies prop up UK agriculture, culture and science, just to name three areas.

I'll give you two real examples of Brexitiers suddenly waking to smell the coffee- Ebbw Vale in Wales has received £600 Million over the last few years to rejuvenate the declined industrial towns- new schools, colleges,leisure centres and roads. They are now demanding central government match that. Will they get it - not a chance. Yet they were the highest voting Welsh area to vote Brexit (about 72%), with huge unemployment. So they have shot themselves in the foot in a big way.

Devon and Cornwall- again huge Brexit support, again demand and pleas to central government to maintain the massive support to fishing and agriculture they were receiving.

Do you think Boris gives a t--s for them now he has achieved a cabinet minister post? Think again.

The silly little middle Englanders carrying folded Daily Mails under their arms chuffing about "we won two world wars" need to get real.

 

 

First: we cannot prevent ANY EU citizen from entering our country... even if they have a criminal record.

Second: A lot of Albanians claim to be from Herzogovina o, with whom we have special refugee status

Third: The EU DOES NOT SUBSIDISE any UK agriculture, science or culture... they simply use the money given to them by the UK for this. They then have the temerity to put massive signs up proclaiming " Another Project Funded By the EU". This is UK money handed back to the UK because we are not capable to make the same funding.(in their eyes) - really?

Fourth: I really hope that you are not bringing up the murder of Joe Cox to further your argument. That would have to be the lowest argument ever - she was a great person, destined for greatness in the future. I am not a Labour supporter because they are so narcissistic and so fuelled by internecine wars that they have now become a joke. UKIP will trounce them in the next General Election - and rightly so

[Leonardo]

38 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Utter crap, It was all about democracy. But if you fell for the black propaganda that it was all about immigration then it worked on you.

In this country we vote in governments that offer policies roughly in tune with our own individual beliefs. If during their term in office we decide we don't like what they've done, we get the chance to vote them out of office when their time is up. That in a nut shell is the one time we have any say in the running of things, but it is precious & was hard fought for. There is no such option with regard to the E.U.

Ironic that the main group of people complaining (whinging) about the result is the younger contingent. The very same group that couldn't be arsed to put down their playstations & nintendos for 20 minutes and take a stroll to the polling station to put a cross in the appropriate box. Hopefully for them it will be a salutary lesson in how democracy really works & next time they'll make an effort, but some how I doubt it.

 

I never confused nationalism with immigration, you did that by yourself.

As I said, the way the UK govt operates is exactly the same as the way the EU "govt" operates. They both use the same democratic principles and the representatives for each are all elected democratically.

Since there is no difference in democracy between the UK and the EU, how can "democracy" be the reason Brexiters voted as they did? Answer: it wasn't.

You say that EU citizens never had an "option" to change the EU representatives - but that is untrue. All EU representatives were directly elected from their respective member states. If any EU member nation wanted to change their EU representative, they could do so in accordance with the way they change their own national representatives - via a national election.

What the Brexiters were whining about, is that the EU wasn't run by Britain. That not every law the EU passed was, first and foremost, a law to "put Britain first". What the Brexiters were whining about, is that the EU wasn't "British". That is what nationalism is about, and that is why Brexiters voted for Brexit.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Leonardo

[keithisco]

11 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

I never confused nationalism with immigration, you did that by yourself.

As I said, the way the UK govt operates is exactly the same as the way the EU "govt" operates. They both use the same democratic principles and the representatives for each are all elected democratically.

Since there is no difference in democracy between the UK and the EU, how can "democracy" be the reason Brexiters voted as they did? Answer: it wasn't.

You say that EU citizens never had an "option" to change the EU representatives - but that is untrue. All EU representatives were directly elected from their respective member states. If any EU member nation wanted to change their EU representative, they could do so in accordance with the way they change their own national representatives - via a national election.

What the Brexiters were whining about, is that the EU wasn't run by Britain. That not every law the EU passed was, first and foremost, a law to "put Britain first". What the Brexiters were whining about, is that the EU wasn't "British". That is what nationalism is about, and that is why Brexiters voted for Brexit.

Seriously? The UK never wanted Juncker at the helm of the EU but their vote was over-ruled. It is the fact that no franchised majority ever voted for the 5 Presidents, they were coronated by the Commission (who are also unelected). These votes were made by Qualified Majority Voting (recently introduced because it was known that a lot of MEP,s and even Commissioners, would not support their inauguration).

NO, you are so wrong, Brexiters wanted a return to democratic accountability - this is anathema to the top echelon of the EU who are almost exclusively composed of failed Communist Party members.

What the heck are the Brexiteers "whining" about - they have won the argument, it is you "Remnants" that need to get over it and start supporting your Nation`s future instead of rubbishing the opportunities. Remnants are the "Quislings" here, the "fifth Column" undermining  any and everything that will lead to a fabulous future, irrespective of any short-term setbacks.

[Leonardo]

9 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Seriously? The UK never wanted Juncker at the helm of the EU but their vote was over-ruled. It is the fact that no franchised majority ever voted for the 5 Presidents, they were coronated by the Commission (who are also unelected). These votes were made by Qualified Majority Voting (recently introduced because it was known that a lot of MEP,s and even Commissioners, would not support their inauguration).

We don't directly elect our Prime Minister either, and the various committees and commissions in the UK govt are not directly elected, but unelected by the national electorate and instead populated via assignment by government. As I said, the way the EU works is just as "democratic" as the way our national government works.

As for not wanting Juncker - our vote was not "over-ruled", it was outvoted. How is that not "democracy"?

[GlitterRose]

16 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Seriously? The UK never wanted Juncker at the helm of the EU but their vote was over-ruled. It is the fact that no franchised majority ever voted for the 5 Presidents, they were coronated by the Commission (who are also unelected). These votes were made by Qualified Majority Voting (recently introduced because it was known that a lot of MEP,s and even Commissioners, would not support their inauguration).

NO, you are so wrong, Brexiters wanted a return to democratic accountability - this is anathema to the top echelon of the EU who are almost exclusively composed of failed Communist Party members.

What the heck are the Brexiteers "whining" about - they have won the argument, it is you "Remnants" that need to get over it and start supporting your Nation`s future instead of rubbishing the opportunities. Remnants are the "Quislings" here, the "fifth Column" undermining  any and everything that will lead to a fabulous future, irrespective of any short-term setbacks.

Do you actually have any evidence of that...or is yelling commies a smoke and mirrors tactic? 

[keithisco]

25 minutes ago, Leonardo said:

We don't directly elect our Prime Minister either, and the various committees and commissions in the UK govt are not directly elected, but unelected by the national electorate and instead populated via assignment by government. As I said, the way the EU works is just as "democratic" as the way our national government works.

As for not wanting Juncker - our vote was not "over-ruled", it was outvoted. How is that not "democracy"?

That is such a disingenuous statement: when there is a General Election in the UK then it is clear that the leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister. There is no election EU wide that allows people to vote for the President of the EU, he is not a member of a party that we can vote for, he is there ,in his position simply through the patronage of his "chums" and "cronies" in the EU.

The deals done in the back rooms of the EU to crown someone as President are probably even more fantastic than in a Graham Greene novel.

You call this "Democracy"? the election is 3 steps away from a franchised Presidential election.

I am so glad that the great british public voted against such croneyism

As for the remark about Communistas, it takes just a very short search on the 5 Presidents previous allegiances to find out the truth about their backgrounds. I suggest you do this and actually educate yourself

as for all of your other arguments: you lost the vote, now get behind your country as it moves forward, or indeed you will be a "quisling" and a hater of the UK.

Edited August 4, 2016 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

6 minutes ago, keithisco said:

That is such a disingenuous statement: when there is a General Election in the UK then it is clear that the leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister. There is no election EU wide that allows people to vote for the President of the EU, he is not a member of a party that we can vote for, he is there ,in his position simply through the patronage of his "chums" and "cronies" in the EU.

The deals done in the back rooms of the EU to crown someone as President are probably even more fantastic than in a Graham Greene novel.

You call this "Democracy"? the election is 3 steps away from a franchised Presidential election.

I am so glad that the great british public voted against such croneyism

As for the remark about Communistas, it takes just a very short search on the 5 Presidents previous allegiances to find out the truth about their backgrounds. I suggest you do this and actually educate yourself

as for all of your other arguments: you lost the vote, now get behind your country as it moves forward, or indeed you will be a "quisling" and a hater of the UK.

remember Nigel's Who's who in the commission. and they wonder where it all went wrong. (Lisbon treaty era)

 

[Leonardo]

12 minutes ago, keithisco said:

That is such a disingenuous statement: when there is a General Election in the UK then it is clear that the leader of the winning party becomes Prime Minister. There is no election EU wide that allows people to vote for the President of the EU, he is not a member of a party that we can vote for, he is there ,in his position simply through the patronage of his "chums" and "cronies" in the EU.

The deals done in the back rooms of the EU to crown someone as President are probably even more fantastic than in a Graham Greene novel.

You call this "Democracy"? the election is 3 steps away from a franchised Presidential election.

I am so glad that the great british public voted against such croneyism

As for the remark about Communistas, it takes just a very short search on the 5 Presidents previous allegiances to find out the truth about their backgrounds. I suggest you do this and actually educate yourself

as for all of your other arguments: you lost the vote, now get behind your country as it moves forward, or indeed you will be a "quisling" and a hater of the UK.

I see, so that the EU Presidency is shared and rotates among the Member states on an equal basis, and that this is agreed by all member nations, means your statement "It is the fact that no franchised majority ever voted for the 5 Presidents" is not "disingenuous"?

You cast darts at others while pretending those darts should not also be cast at yourself.

Deals are done within our own national political parties to decide who should be their leaders, so your outrage about how the EU administration conducts itself should also be directed at the UK's various political entities, yes? There is, after all, no difference in how they operate.

Which leads me back to how can Brexiters claim they voted for Brexit "to claim back democracy". What a load of tosh!

Edited August 4, 2016 by Leonardo

[LV-426]

Man, oh man, am I fed up of all this whinging and moaning!

Remain camp, you lost... move on!

It's not even worth trying to have an intelligent debate on the subject any longer (was it ever?) as it is just going around and around in pointless circles.

Tip: If you live in Britain and love the EU so passionately, go and seek citizenship in another EU member state where the majority of citizens share your views  - good look finding one currently, even more luck finding one in a few years time...

As for the evil Brexiter who supports killing remainers, the original thread is here:

UKIP councillor: 'Remainers should be killed'

Are people really so literal with everything they read?

The man obviously wasn't very bright in his choice of words - or very bright at all, but do people really think he is condoning killing people for voting remain, or is it far more likely that it was a an offhand remark that was pounced on for a sensationalist story?

[spud the mackem]

On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 7:41 AM, alibongo said:

I know there are similar threads,ijust wanted to express my anger over us leaving.i don't support the xenophobic views at all. I despise them!

A lot of the people you are moaning about helped us out in WW2, Poles , Czechs, Indians, Dutch Danes and a lot more , if you want to remain in Europe get yourself on the Ferry to France, Bye-Bye

Edited August 4, 2016 by spud the mackem

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

I didn't say they all thought that, but when you have brexiters spouting that off (even a councilman), and there was already a remainer killed, claiming that the brexit folks are all about democracy doesn't seem accurate to me. I was responding to a comment that proposes the brexit vote was about democracy and not about nationalism.

Here is another article about the recent wave of hate crimes due to brexit...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwifrt6yrqjOAhXE7IMKHddCAI8QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fhome-news%2Fbrexit-eu-referendum-racial-racism-abuse-hate-crime-reported-latest-leave-immigration-a7104191.html&usg=AFQjCNHszZwTuSgtAL6IMXYrdR2X88F3gA

You're still stigmatizing the majority that voted because of the actions a few. There'd no justification for that; that's propaganda.

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You're still stigmatizing the majority that voted because of the actions a few. There'd no justification for that; that's propaganda.

A councilman calling for remainers to be killed should be considered inciting violence. The murder of a remainer should be alarming. The uptick in hate crimes should be alarming. 

I would consider with all of those facts that it's propaganda to say this was all about democracy, and not nationalism. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

A councilman calling for remainers to be killed should be considered inciting violence. The murder of a remainer should be alarming. The uptick in hate crimes should be alarming. 

I would consider with all of those facts that it's propaganda to say this was all about democracy, and not nationalism. 

Oh, yes Chaos. Never mind the honest, decent, hardworking people who love their country and voted their conscious and just made a decision with which you simply disagree. Just demonize the whole lot of them and be done with it. Some people just like to paint the issues in stark blacks and whites. It makes things so much simpler in deciding who to dehumanize and hate.

[GlitterRose]

It seems to me that many promises were made, and they were never intended to be kept. Support for brexit was drummed up with a lot of rhetoric that has resulted in a great deal of division and even violence. There's a lot of xenophobia that people are attempting to mask under the guise of concern for democracy. It's not democratic to want to round up citizens and kill or deport them just because they didn't vote the way you wanted them to.