Brexit

[GlitterRose]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Oh, yes Chaos. Never mind the honest, decent, hardworking people who love their country and voted their conscious and just made a decision with which you simply disagree. Just demonize the whole lot of them and be done with it. Some people just like to paint the issues in stark blacks and whites. It makes things so much simpler in deciding who to dehumanize and hate.

I'm sure there are lots of decent, hardworking people who love their country who voted for brexit, but they did so after being inundated with a ton of xenophobic rhetoric. People did this out of fear, and they seem to have been clearly misinformed about what a brexit vote would actually mean. Calls for the murder or deportation of the opposition, and hate crimes aimed at immigrants do not help make the case that brexit was about democracy. Indeed, the EU itself was democratic, so...where does this argument come from that they were restoring democracy?

[bee]

3 hours ago, Leonardo said:

 

Since there is no difference in democracy between the UK and the EU, how can "democracy" be the reason Brexiters voted as they did? Answer: it wasn't.

 

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I think you might just be trying to wind people up - but just in case you are serious -

(edit - same to ChaosRose)

have a read --

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/eu-referendum_b_9514608.html

Quote

The EU’s law-making process is fundamentally undemocratic. Power is vested in the unelected and unaccountable elite who make laws - in secret - to preserve the status of large multinationals at the expense of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs). Multinationals achieve their preferential status by spending enormous sums of money on lobbying. They create a complicated regulatory framework, which only large companies with their Human Resources departments can comply with. This drives small competitors out of business, destroys competition and encourages monopolies, forcing the consumer to pay a higher price for poorer quality goods and services.

etc - see article --

size matters

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Edited August 4, 2016 by bee

[+Hammerclaw]

10 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

It seems to me that many promises were made, and they were never intended to be kept. Support for brexit was drummed up with a lot of rhetoric that has resulted in a great deal of division and even violence. There's a lot of xenophobia that people are attempting to mask under the guise of concern for democracy. It's not democratic to want to round up citizens and kill or deport them just because they didn't vote the way you wanted them to. 

And not honest to attribute the actions and opinions of a few wackos to the whole group. Disingenuous denials aside, that's exactly what you're doing.  Sorry, but on this side of the pond, Nationalism and Patriotism are not dirty words and may be expressed democratically without stigma or shame.

[bee]

7 hours ago, ChaosRose said:

It was a Brexit discussion on this site. I don't remember who said it, but they were literally arguing that remainers should be executed. 

I tried to find the comment, but some Brexit discussions have like 90 pages. I couldn't find it. I don't even know if it would still be there, because a comment like that might have been removed, but I certainly saw it. 

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did your nose grow when you wrote this --- ? 

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[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

And not honest to attribute the actions and opinions of a few wackos to the whole group. Disingenuous denials aside, that's exactly what you're doing.  Sorry, but on this side of the pond, Nationalism and Patriotism are not dirty words and may be expressed democratically without stigma or shame.

There's nothing wrong with loving your country. When people start going after the foreigners in their country, and even their own citizens who simply disagree with them, it's not a democracy. 

It's your personal view that it's just a few whackos, but it doesn't seem that way to me when there has been a murder, a significant uptick in hate crimes, there is even a councilman calling for murder, and I can't even look at unexplained-mysteries without seeing someone support the murder or deportation of remainers. 

[GlitterRose]

3 minutes ago, bee said:

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did your nose grow when you wrote this --- ? 

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Actually, someone did find and link the discussion. You can look at it for yourself.

Vote Ukip in 2020.

As for the Remainiacs, if we can't bring in laws to kill them at least get them all deported. They've got no place in post-Brexit Britain. Outside the EU Britain should boom, but all that could be ruined with the Remainiancs continuously talking the country down. They should all be deported. They shouldn't worry, though. We can always see if we can deport them to their beloved EU.

Edited July 21 by Black Monk

Edited August 4, 2016 by ChaosRose

[alibongo]

3 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Utter crap, It was all about democracy. But if you fell for the black propaganda that it was all about immigration then it worked on you.

In this country we vote in governments that offer policies roughly in tune with our own individual beliefs. If during their term in office we decide we don't like what they've done, we get the chance to vote them out of office when their time is up. That in a nut shell is the one time we have any say in the running of things, but it is precious & was hard fought for. There is no such option with regard to the E.U.

Ironic that the main group of people complaining (whinging) about the result is the younger contingent. The very same group that couldn't be arsed to put down their playstations & nintendos for 20 minutes and take a stroll to the polling station to put a cross in the appropriate box. Hopefully for them it will be a salutary lesson in how democracy really works & next time they'll make an effort, but some how I doubt it.

 

It may not be all about money,but the recession has started. Interest rates cut, budget forecast revised,triple lock on pensions to go. Many many innocent people will lose jobs or be put on unfavourable contracts because of the votes of pensioners and the unemployed,!

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by alibongo

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

There's nothing wrong with loving your country. When people start going after the foreigners in their country, and even their own citizens who simply disagree with them, it's not a democracy. 

It's your personal view that it's just a few whackos, but it doesn't seem that way to me when there has been a murder, a significant uptick in hate crimes, there is even a councilman calling for murder, and I can't even look at unexplained-mysteries without seeing someone support the murder or deportation of remainers. 

"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."  Joseph Goebbels

[bee]

2 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

and I can't even look at unexplained-mysteries without seeing someone support the murder or deportation of remainers. 

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your posts are getting completely out of control - - you cannot be serious and you are basically taking the p*** 

behave

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[GlitterRose]

I'm not trying to wind up anybody. I see similar xenophobic rhetoric here in the US. And it's creating a climate where people are starting to call for progressives to be put on an island because they don't agree with banning all Muslims or something. I think it's pretty scary, and I'm coming out against it. 

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

"If you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."  Joseph Goebbels

So it's a lie that you think it's a few whackos and I don't? 

See you and Thorvir ought to get together. It's actually called an opinion, or a disagreement over the facts. 

[GlitterRose]

6 minutes ago, bee said:

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your posts are getting completely out of control - - you cannot be serious and you are basically taking the p*** 

behave

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I seriously believe that the post supported what the UKIP councilman said...and he called for murder of remainers. 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, ChaosRose said:

So it's a lie that you think it's a few whackos and I don't? 

See you and Thorvir ought to get together. It's actually called an opinion, or a disagreement over the facts. 

No, you just can't deal with or accept the real reasons most people voted out, so you take your handful of nutcases, construct a fallacious argument with them, attribute it to all Brexiters and chip mindlessly away at it. That's called a straw man argument.

[GlitterRose]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, you just can't deal with or accept the real reasons most people voted out, so you take your handful of nutcases, construct a fallacious argument with them, attribute it to all Brexiters and chip mindlessly away at it. That's called a straw man argument.

I see a pattern that is leading to division and violence, and I see that pattern starting here. And in my opinion, it all stems from fear-mongering and xenophobia.

Edited August 4, 2016 by ChaosRose

[bee]

7 minutes ago, alibongo said:

It may not be all about money,but the recession had started. Interest rates cut, budget forecast revised,triple lock on pensions to go. Many many innocent people will lose jobs or be put on unfavourable contracts because of the votes of pensioners and the unemployed,!

 

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Project Fear scared so many people they are keeping their money under the mattress now.!!...and not in banks...

The economic disasters that the Remain Camp went on about day after day for months hasn't helped the economic situation -

And you are another one, alibongo - just taking the p*** - right from your flame baiting thread title (which has now been changed)

and your opening post - a deliberate wind up post after post - pro EU propaganda - nothing more nothing less 

happy now 

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[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

I see a pattern that is leading to division and violence, and I see that pattern starting here. And in my opinion, it all stems from fear-mongering and xenophobia.

Yes, and you've become so obsessed with those few examples, you've become fear-mongering and xenophobic a bit, yourself. Just read your posts and try to see them from the other side.

[GlitterRose]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, and you've become so obsessed with those few examples, you've become fear-mongering and xenophobic a bit, yourself. Just read your posts and try to see them from the other side.

Hammerclaw...I actually have first-hand personal experience with the crazy divisiveness that's going on because people are terrified of Muslims. It's not just about the Muslims, anymore. It's about anyone who won't denounce them to satisfaction.

Edited August 4, 2016 by ChaosRose

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, ChaosRose said:

Hammerclaw...I actually have first-hand personal experience with the crazy divisiveness that's going on because people are terrified of Muslims. 

How sad. I've similar encounters with people who don't like Scotch-Irish Rednecks like me. We're all toothless, gun-toting hillbillies and all that. The most important thing is what people think about themselves. Xenophobia can be overcome, mindless hatred never can be. Best to be part of the solution instead of the problem.

[GlitterRose]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

How sad. I've similar encounters with people who don't like Scotch-Irish Rednecks like me. We're all toothless, gun-toting hillbillies and all that. The most important thing is what people think about themselves. Xenophobia can be overcome, mindless hatred never can be. Best to be part of the solution instead of the problem.

When people start talking about offing the opposition, deporting them, rounding up citizens and making them register, banning people of a particular religion...call me crazy...but I think it's scary. Especially, when it's coming from elected officials or candidates for office. 

Our freedoms are tenuous, and they rely on people respecting civil rights and constitutions. Those are just ideas and pieces of paper that won't necessarily protect individuals if a mob mentality does take over. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, ChaosRose said:

When people start talking about offing the opposition, deporting them, rounding up citizens and making them register, banning people of a particular religion...call me crazy...but I think it's scary. Especially, when it's coming from elected officials or candidates for office. 

Our freedoms are tenuous, and they rely on people respecting civil rights and constitutions. Those are just ideas and pieces of paper that won't necessarily protect individuals if a mob mentality does take over. 

As far as Brexit goes, I never had a dog in the race. It mattered not one whit to me if the vote was stay or go. I was astonished, to be frank, that the it was to exit. The remainers were so smug and confident and all that. Fear-mongering aside, the UK will do just fine, on it's own again. The EU will still have to collaborate with her socially, militarily and economically even though it leaves a bad taste in the mouths in Brussels. All of North America and The Commonwealth of Nations have vested interests in seeing she prospers. Still, one thing is for certain. The EU will be a much poorer place without her.

[alibongo]

Quote

There has been so much idiocy posted on this thread, I will try to make sense of it:

It is not about money, it is about border security and sovereignty-well, the UK has always been in a position to enforce security, being an island, in or out of Europe. We just don't want to pay a border force like countries like Australia for example. Now we will have less money.

Getting out will help us enforce our borders. No it won't, we just will not have the help of the French and others.

The UK is one of the top 7 world economies- yes, it was.

 

 

[Leonardo]

1 hour ago, bee said:

.

I think you might just be trying to wind people up - but just in case you are serious -

(edit - same to ChaosRose)

have a read --

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/matthew-ellery/eu-referendum_b_9514608.html

etc - see article --

size matters

.
 

bee,

You, and others, have seriously mistaken the point I am making. I am not arguing that the EU process of govt is particularly "democratic", I am only arguing that it, and the process by which the UK is governed by it's government, are essentially the same in how they operate and their degree of "democracy".

A vote for Brexit was not a "vote for democracy", because we've got the same degree of democracy in our national government as we had under the EU.

[bee]

9 hours ago, Leonardo said:

bee,

You, and others, have seriously mistaken the point I am making. I am not arguing that the EU process of govt is particularly "democratic", I am only arguing that it, and the process by which the UK is governed by it's government, are essentially the same in how they operate and their degree of "democracy".

A vote for Brexit was not a "vote for democracy", because we've got the same degree of democracy in our national government as we had under the EU.

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I disagree

How can we have the 'same degree of democracy' in the EU when 27 other countries become part of the decision making.?
The flaw in your argument is illustrated by that simple fact -

The bigger the organization the smaller the influence of individual voters - I'm baffled that you don't seem to accept that -

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[Leonardo]

1 hour ago, bee said:

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I disagree

How can we have the 'same degree of democracy' in the EU when 27 other countries become part of the decision making.?
The flaw in your argument is illustrated by that simple fact -

The bigger the organization the smaller the influence of individual voters - I'm baffled that you don't seem to accept that -

.
 

 

Bee, the size of a democracy has no bearing on the "degree of democracy" within it.

The EU administration is as democratic for all the citizens of the EU, as the UK govt is as democratic for all the citizens of the UK. You didn't get "more democracy" by voting Brexit, you just got a smaller jurisdiction.

As I said, Brexit was a vote for nationalism, not "democracy".

[stevewinn]

3 hours ago, bee said:

.

I disagree

How can we have the 'same degree of democracy' in the EU when 27 other countries become part of the decision making.?
The flaw in your argument is illustrated by that simple fact -

The bigger the organization the smaller the influence of individual voters - I'm baffled that you don't seem to accept that -

.
 

 

 

exactly bee, Leonardo lost the argument on Referendum day, now he's just going over old ground.

how short minds exists, remember the EU constitution which had to go to referendum in France and Holland, We all remember the outcome of that vote - the French said No, the Dutch said No, So what happened in the Name of democracy the EU changed the name from EU constitution to the Lisbon treaty and never allowed anyone a vote at all, the EU just pushed it through, and we all know the Lisbon treaty was the constitution in all but name as quoted by the Author. So that's Democracy for you EU style.

But lets move on, lets take the three pillars of the EU. the EU commission is entirely appointed, no democratic element. The Council of ministers, decision making is virtually all done by qualified majority voting. you might like to know the UK has 27 Votes, Malta for example 3 that means per head of Maltese population they have 15 more times more influence in the council of ministers and in the European parliment they are 10 times better represented than us. Its not one person one vote, what sort of Democracy is that? its a gerrymandered voting system to support the objectives of the European Union. - then we have the European court, the rule of law is essential to any democracy the very foundation the platform a democracy is built upon. yet the EU court is a political court its committed to push the Federalist ideals of the EU without the support of the people. 

the EU court breaks the golden rule that no man should be his judge in his own court. the specific case im thinking of, - in the worst financial crisis in History Governments at home faced having to impose austerity on their people, so the Governments of the member countries went along to the Council of ministers who represent the Governments of the EU, after all the council of ministers are appointed by each individual member country, So the council of minister went long to the EU commission (the unelected commission) and said look we've been mandated by our collective governments to stop the wage rise for the members of the EU Commission, so not to rise in line with the old formula - the EU commission whos salaries were about to be cut said no thank you, no we don't want our wages frozen or cut, so what did the EU commission do? - they took the EU council of ministers to the European Court, - the European judges sat their thinking if we agree with the Council of ministers we'll be cutting our own salaries, So what did they do they judged in favour of the EU Commission and so they voted for their own pay rise. - all with the backdrop of the worst financial crisis in History, they broke their own rules. But you cannot break your own rules if you are the judge of your own court. proving the point that no man should be his own judge in his own court. breaking the very principle of justice and with that the foundation of Democracy.

But the crux of the matter in British Democracy is redress of grievance, its why MP's are elected by their constituents, so that they the people can go along and redress any concerns they have, or if something goes wrong or someone is badly treated their MP can go to the minister in Parliament and the MP can say my constituent has been treated badly, if the MP is right and the constituent is right it can be redressed and changed in our Parliament, by elected members of our Parliament its why our British system works so well. BUT - with one exception, unless its in a area of European competence, and then there is nothing that can be done in our elected British Parliament. if the British Parliament was to take it upon itself it would be breaking EU rules and thus fined by the European Court. So is that Democracy as we know it in Great Britain? its a sorry excuse of a Democracy when a British citizen cannot get redress or grievance resolved in our Democratic elected Parliament but by a foreign political entity. 

But apparently there is no loss of sovereignty or democracy. But remember this before we Voted Leave, and until we Leave there is less democracy - when we walked into the polling station regardless of who we voted for 60% of our Laws are made on the basis on European agreements where as we discussed before - the Maltese proportionately out vote us by 15 to 1, whoever you vote for matters less than someone else who votes in Malta for the laws of our very own land of the United Kingdom and if your not happy with that, then go along to your local elected Member of Parliament and ask for redress, and you'll find they cant give you redress because the most ancient British democratic Parliament in the world as been made more powerless by being members of the EU.

But apparently we have suffered no loss of Democracy - Leonardo don't believe everything you think.

 

 

   

Edited August 5, 2016 by stevewinn