Brexit

[Black Red Devil]

Double post

Edited August 11, 2016 by Black Red Devil

[Space Commander Travis]

The 

33 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

You got that right.  Britain would have been the Krauts.

Most of what's now known as the British originated from what we now (or at least, did in 1940) (and some still do) call the Krauts. of course. The current Royal Family for one.

[Space Commander Travis]

* Actually correction: it was mainly the Americans that called the Germans Krauts, of course. To the British it was Jerry, or the Boche or the Huns. If we're going to be jingoistic. we should use the correct terminology. 

[Black Red Devil]

24 minutes ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

The 

Most of what's now known as the British originated from what we now (or at least, did in 1940) (and some still do) call the Krauts. of course. The current Royal Family for one.

Yeah the Saxons.  In fact Hitler believed the British and Germans were the same ethnicity.  The same for Czechoslovacchia, Poland, Eastern France (Alsace and Lorraine), Northern Italy, basically everywhere where the Germans in some past historical event left their DNA.  Similarly, ISIS and their proclaimed Caliphate regard Spain, Greece, the old Yugoslavia as part of their property because of past invasions and intermingles of some sort.  

[Black Monk]

 

Quote

 

Grand Moff Tarkin said:

The 

Most of what's now known as the British originated from what we now (or at least, did in 1940) (and some still do) call the Krauts.

 

What complete and utter nonsense.

[Black Monk]

Brexit U-turns: Who is rowing back on their Project Fear warnings?

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/brexit-u-turns-rowing-back-project-fear-warnings/

Edited August 11, 2016 by Black Monk

[Black Monk]

2 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

You got that right.

Yes. I DID get it right.

[Black Monk]

1 hour ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

* Actually correction: it was mainly the Americans that called the Germans Krauts, of course. To the British it was Jerry, or the Boche or the Huns. If we're going to be jingoistic. we should use the correct terminology. 

No. It was Boche and Hun during WWI, Krauts and Jerries during WWII.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Black Monk

[Black Monk]

Quote

Just admit that you believe Britain would have won the war against the Germans on it's own

Britain WOULD have beaten Germany on her own. Britain routed Jerry in the Battle of Britain - on her own. One reason for that was Britain's industrial might, which saw her building new ships and warplanes at a far faster rate than the Germans were doing.

[Habitat]

Well, Germany might well have won the BOB if they had thrown everything they had in men and machines into it. But that was not going to happen, because Herr Hitler needed to keep a viable air force for the Russian adventure, not reduce it to a greatly diminished force fighting Britain. As it was, the not inconsiderable losses suffered by the Luftwaffe during the French campaign and the BOB probably tilted the balance against Germany in the Barbarossa operation.

[Thorvir]

6 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

My answer to that is the same, If we'd lost the "Battle of Britain" (the most important of WW2) the war would have been lost,,,

And you're still wrong.  In fact, while I am proud and happy at the sacrifice and heroism of the RAF and the British people during that time, it wasn't all them that brought on the victory.  It was a unstable German leadership that got bored with it, that started messing with the plans, and eventually shifted attention to the east--to their utter folly.  The British fought hard and earned that victory, but luck was with them as well.  And that's a good thing.

Quote

...no north Atlantic fleet arming and feeding Russia, No Royal navy keeping the high seas open, no RAF attacking the German war machine, no desert rats disrupting fuel supplies, the might of the German war machine would have been unstoppable they'd have had Nuclear missiles before America, do you know about any of the sometimes suicidal raids?  The St Nazaire Raid or Operation Chariot, Operation Biting, also known as the Bruneval Raid where they captured a German radar station and it's operator bringing it back to Britain.

That's exactly right, ignore the USA and USSR /rolleyes.  Germany did not have the manpower nor the resources to sustain their European Empire.  Germany would not have had nuclear weapons before the US.  They weren't even close.  Germany was no match for their enemies.  It took as long as it did because Germany's enemies were fractured at the start.  Once the ball got rolling, Germany was stopped fast.  Without the UK, the war would have lasted longer.  How much longer?  Not too much, give it a couple years.  The Soviets alone would have eventually carried the war to Berlin and to victory--which would have led to even darker times for the rest of Europe.  The help provided to the Russians only sped up the end for the Nazis on the Eastern Front.  The outcome was always inevitable: defeat of Germany.  It was over as soon as they stepped foot on Polish soil.

 I'm trying to be nice about this, especially since you're continuing to keep this thread off-topic, but a couple things that really grinds my gears are historical revisionism, and a complete ignorance of the actual events of WWII.  I also despise Nazi fanbois thinking that their dear Fatherland almost won the war, and could have if only a couple minor things were changed.  I'm not accusing you of the latter, just throwing that out because it goes with the other gripes I have when it comes to factual errors being posted about WWII.  Germany had no chance, barring some sort of alien intervention or complete lack of will to fight from every other country opposing them on this planet.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Thorvir Hrothgaard

[Thorvir]

5 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

" Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few"

Yes.  They helped save their country.  They helped win the war.  It was a team effort.  The same honor owed to the RAF and the British people is shared by the Russians, Canadians, Americans, Australians, Chinese, Indians, French, Brazlilians....heck, millions of people not native to Great Britain from all over the world.

It was, after all, a WORLD WAR.  Not just an Anglo-Germanic war.

[Thorvir]

ugh

Edited August 11, 2016 by Thorvir Hrothgaard

[Space Commander Travis]

2 hours ago, Black Monk said:

What complete and utter nonsense.

I can only presume the hatred that you still seem to nurse for the Krauts makes you want to insist that the Brits can have no connection with them whatsoever. 

[stevewinn]

On 11/22/2008 at 8:58 PM, stevewinn said:

The allies won WWII in Europe, 1945. The US, Britain, France and Russia still occupied German for many years after the hostilities ended, taking over the running of the country and doing reconstruction ect..... same could apply to Iraq. so has people can see, after your military victory it doesn't mean "lets pack up and go home in time for tea"

 

8 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Ah, you are funny my friend.  You overwhelm and submerge me with all these quotes insisting and trying to prove that I'm quoting you incorrectly yet in your first quote you showed, you replied this,

Europeans capitulated and we Great Britain yet again from Waterloo, to Mons/Somme, to D-day/Normandy, yet again when push came to shove WE put everything on the line to rid Europe of German aggression for the second time in 21 years, and liberate Europe once more.

If that's not in support of Spud's statement I don't know what is.  So, you take over his claim and try to play innocent when confronted and then you try to counterattack by pinning me on a statement I made that even the blind, death and dumb know what I was referring to and finally you try to persuade me that I'm ducking and diving.  LOL, c'mon mate, you're better than this. 

Just admit that you believe Britain would have won the war against the Germans on it's own, as the other Brexiters such as Black Monk, Hetrodoxly and Spud have done and now that you guys have liberated yourself from the "iron ball wrapped around your ankle" called the EU, you believe Great Britain will be a great Empire again and the Europeans will come knocking on your door begging for help as you believe they've always done.   No need for prolonged to and fro replies, just say "yes, I believe it".  No use hiding behind excuses such as Brussels, immigration, trade agreements etc.  It was all about that British sense of superiority over the Continentals. Admit it.

I've been very critical of US Foreign Policies in recent times but you can't deny the facts and numbers of the past and if it wasn't for them during WWII we'd (Aussies and New Zealanders) be using chopsticks instead of forks by now and you guys would be eating Wurstels and Sauerkraut for dinner tonight.  You can overlook this as much as you want but these are the true facts and this isn't being disrespectful towards the heroic British that fought and fell during WWII, no matter how you try to twist my point morally.  This isn't denying that you won the battle but you wouldn't have won the war if it wasn't for others.

(Bold) ah all is becoming clear now, why should i admit something that is clearly not true, and that's your problem. Why should i admit Britain won the war against Germany on its own, why should i admit i want to re-create the British empire, when i clearly don't think neither of statements are true. Go on admit it you say. Why? 

So i'll say again, your original statement about the Japanese was wrong just like the allegations you've put to me above (Bold). - Its quite clear your hung up on the whole false assumption you attribute to me of Britain beat Germany on its own, just to once again prove how wrong you are. at the very top i have quoted myself from 2008, where i clearly state " The allies won WWII in Europe, 1945" does that sound like i think Britain won the war alone. No. funny thing is before you even replied to me i actually stated in this thread to another poster that it was a team effort in winning the War. But you keep insisting i think otherwise. its rather funny.

 

Edited August 11, 2016 by stevewinn

[Black Red Devil]

32 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 

(Bold) ah all is becoming clear now, why should i admit something that is clearly not true, and that's your problem. Why should i admit Britain won the war against Germany on its own, why should i admit i want to re-create the British empire, when i clearly don't think neither of statements are true. Go on admit it you say. Why? 

So i'll say again, your original statement about the Japanese was wrong just like the allegations you've put to me above (Bold). - Its quite clear your hung up on the whole false assumption you attribute to me of Britain beat Germany on its own, just to once again prove how wrong you are. at the very top i have quoted myself from 2008, where i clearly state " The allies won WWII in Europe, 1945" does that sound like i think Britain won the war alone. No. funny thing is before you even replied to me i actually stated in this thread to another poster that it was a team effort in winning the War. But you keep insisting i think otherwise. its rather funny.

 

Europeans capitulated and we Great Britain yet again from Waterloo, to Mons/Somme, to D-day/Normandy, yet again when push came to shove WE put everything on the line to rid Europe of German aggression for the second time in 21 years, and liberate Europe once more.

Your words, not mine.  Is this written in an English language we're not privy to know?  This is where you took over Spud's quote. 

[stevewinn]

Just now, Black Red Devil said:

Europeans capitulated and we Great Britain yet again from Waterloo, to Mons/Somme, to D-day/Normandy, yet again when push came to shove WE put everything on the line to rid Europe of German aggression for the second time in 21 years, and liberate Europe once more.

Your words, not mine.  Is this written in an English language we're not privy to know?  This is where you took over Spud's quote. 

Yes and what a true statement it is. How you make the leap from that to i think we won the war alone - to recreating the British Empire is a jump in your imagination alone. 

[Space Commander Travis]

8 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Yes and what a true statement it is. How you make the leap from that to i think we won the war alone - to recreating the British Empire is a jump in your imagination alone. 

Well, according to some that's what Brexiters want, as well as being Russian agents at the same time. I'm not sure exactly how those two things go together.

[Unusual Tournament]

44 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Europeans capitulated and we Great Britain yet again from Waterloo, to Mons/Somme, to D-day/Normandy, yet again when push came to shove WE put everything on the line to rid Europe of German aggression for the second time in 21 years, and liberate Europe once more.

Your words, not mine.  Is this written in an English language we're not privy to know?  This is where you took over Spud's quote. 

Waterloo has become like a default setting for all the brexiteers to justify the choices they perceive has right. But the addition of "we" is something new entirely... 

[LV-426]

5 hours ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

Yes.  They helped save their country.  They helped win the war.  It was a team effort.  The same honor owed to the RAF and the British people is shared by the Russians, Canadians, Americans, Australians, Chinese, Indians, French, Brazlilians....heck, millions of people not native to Great Britain from all over the world.

It was, after all, a WORLD WAR.  Not just an Anglo-Germanic war.

Absolutely.

Even in our finest hour, it should always be remembered that we "got by with a little help from our friends."

"The Royal Air Force roll of honour for the Battle of Britain recognises 595 non-British pilots (out of 2,936) as flying at least one authorised operational sortie with an eligible unit of the RAF or Fleet Air Arm between 10 July and 31 October 1940. These included 145 Poles, 127 New Zealanders, 112 Canadians, 88 Czechoslovaks, 10 Irish, 32 Australians, 28 Belgians, 25 South Africans, 13 French, 7 Americans, 3 Southern Rhodesians and one each from Jamaica and Mandatory Palestine."

[Thorvir]

2 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Absolutely.

Even in our finest hour, it should always be remembered that we "got by with a little help from our friends."

That is never a bad thing.

2 hours ago, LV-426 said:

"The Royal Air Force roll of honour for the Battle of Britain recognises 595 non-British pilots (out of 2,936) as flying at least one authorised operational sortie with an eligible unit of the RAF or Fleet Air Arm between 10 July and 31 October 1940. These included 145 Poles, 127 New Zealanders, 112 Canadians, 88 Czechoslovaks, 10 Irish, 32 Australians, 28 Belgians, 25 South Africans, 13 French, 7 Americans, 3 Southern Rhodesians and one each from Jamaica and Mandatory Palestine."

  Good old facts, I love 'em!  And a salute to all of those that had a helping hand in stopping the Nazis.

Now, can we put this behind us and get back to the actual content of the thread, or is it irrevocably off-track because of BRD and hetrodoxyl and others?

[hetrodoxly]

7 hours ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

And you're still wrong.  In fact, while I am proud and happy at the sacrifice and heroism of the RAF and the British people during that time, it wasn't all them that brought on the victory.  It was a unstable German leadership that got bored with it, that started messing with the plans, and eventually shifted attention to the east--to their utter folly.  The British fought hard and earned that victory, but luck was with them as well.  And that's a good thing.

That's exactly right, ignore the USA and USSR /rolleyes.  Germany did not have the manpower nor the resources to sustain their European Empire.  Germany would not have had nuclear weapons before the US.  They weren't even close.  Germany was no match for their enemies.  It took as long as it did because Germany's enemies were fractured at the start.  Once the ball got rolling, Germany was stopped fast.  Without the UK, the war would have lasted longer.  How much longer?  Not too much, give it a couple years.  The Soviets alone would have eventually carried the war to Berlin and to victory--which would have led to even darker times for the rest of Europe.  The help provided to the Russians only sped up the end for the Nazis on the Eastern Front.  The outcome was always inevitable: defeat of Germany.  It was over as soon as they stepped foot on Polish soil.

 I'm trying to be nice about this, especially since you're continuing to keep this thread off-topic, but a couple things that really grinds my gears are historical revisionism, and a complete ignorance of the actual events of WWII.  I also despise Nazi fanbois thinking that their dear Fatherland almost won the war, and could have if only a couple minor things were changed.  I'm not accusing you of the latter, just throwing that out because it goes with the other gripes I have when it comes to factual errors being posted about WWII.  Germany had no chance, barring some sort of alien intervention or complete lack of will to fight from every other country opposing them on this planet.

I'll try and be nice about this, remember America hadn't been forced into the war yet we stood alone facing the greatest war machine the world had ever seen if the "Battle of Britain" had been lost how would Russia have been armed and fed? (side note we paid the Russians bill). answer this one first.

[Habitat]

10 hours ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

 The outcome was always inevitable: defeat of Germany.  It was over as soon as they stepped foot on Polish soil.

 

That is  being wise after the event. The Russians came close to defeat in 1941, had that occurred, the Germans would have swept through the Middle East as well, and Britain would have had to reach an accommodation or face another BOB type onslaught, this time, all-out.

[Thorvir]

3 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

I'll try and be nice about this...

Instead of being smart and accurate?

3 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

...remember America hadn't been forced into the war yet we stood alone facing the greatest war machine the world had ever seen if the "Battle of Britain" had been lost how would Russia have been armed and fed? (side note we paid the Russians bill). answer this one first.

Wow, move those goalposts, why don't you?  And you were alone, just read post #345 and stop making **** up as you type.

Russia would have won their part of it, regardless if they were "armed and fed" by Great Britain....which, actually, most of that came from the US anyway.  Our helping Russia out just sped things up, that's all.  Russia wasn't completely unarmed and completely out of food.  For cryin' out loud, do some ****ing research.

[Thorvir]

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

That is  being wise after the event. The Russians came close to defeat in 1941, had that occurred, the Germans would have swept through the Middle East as well, and Britain would have had to reach an accommodation or face another BOB type onslaught, this time, all-out.

Russia was not close to defeat in 1941--they were being beaten and beaten badly.  But they managed their counter attack that stop the Germans before the greater weight of Western assistance even reached them.

The Germans still lacked the manpower and resources to sweep through the Middle East.  Great Britain is not just one island, with a small population, after all.  And why do both of you completely ignore the Royal Navy?

What is it with all of the historical revisionism all of the sudden?

Edited August 12, 2016 by Thorvir Hrothgaard