Brexit

[eugenonegin]

30 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I thought there were doubts as to her wholehearted commitment to the cause before she became Supreme Leader.

It was the People that wanted Brexit, none of the politicians really wanted it.

You're right, I'm wrong.

I was thinking, out of the current politicians, it is just her (and probably not even Gove and Johnson) who wants a Hard Brexit.

As for the people, it was just over half of those who voted.

The referendum was the most divisive political act in several centuries.

[Space Commander Travis]

1 minute ago, eugeneonegin said:

You're right, I'm wrong.

I was thinking, out of the current politicians, it is just her (and probably not even Gove and Johnson) who wants a Hard Brexit.

.

probably because at the time she thought it'd boost her popularity with the party, if not necessarily with the People (who they have little regard for at the best of times, of course.) 

[stevewinn]

All this talk by the remainers of a soft Brexit, and the continuation of Soft Brexit, I know you where desperate for this general election to be a way of avoiding Brexit. but the truth of the matter is this was a general election and not a re-run of the Referendum.

Just a reminder to those people, below is question we were asked at the polling station. the Ballot paper read.....

couple this with the official Governments leaflet sent to every single address in the UK stating that if we voted Leave, that would mean no turning back and would mean leaving the European Union single market. The official leaflet did not state soft Brexit at any point. Soft Brexit was not on the ballot paper.

[LV-426]

And people wonder why there's an appetite for a "hard" Brexit:

Brexit negotiations: Barnier rules out 'concessions'

"The EU's chief negotiator said there would be "substantial" consequences from Brexit after the first round of talks with the UK.

Michel Barnier said he was "not in the frame of mind to make concessions or ask for concessions"."

Does anyone really think men such as this have any care whatsoever for the average British citizen?

Does anyone who now accepts that we are leaving the EU want men like this deciding what laws and policies affect our country?

Or are remainers so vindictive that they'd prefer to see our politicians bent over the negotiating table while offering a submissive smile?

 

[Space Commander Travis]

oh Brexit's still on is it? Haven't heard much about that lately. I read that the Brexit secretary (BrexSec), David Davis, was tipped as one of the likely successors to Ms. May. So does that mean that the Conservatories will be anxious to stretch out Brexit Talks as long as possible, or Ms. May might anyway, or that Mr. Davis will be keen to hurry it up as much as possible, I wonder? 

[Torchwood]

5 hours ago, LV-426 said:

 

Or are remainers so vindictive that they'd prefer to see our politicians bent over the negotiating table while offering a submissive smile?

 

wait, didn't david davis  just do that anyway, without any prompting from any remainers?

 

[eugenonegin]

2 hours ago, Torchwood said:

wait, didn't david davis  just do that anyway, without any prompting from any remainers?

 

What did he do? He was just on the radio saying they had made a very positive start to negotiations.

[eugenonegin]

Oh, perhaps you mean this (but perhaps it is a clever ploy, a "sprat to catch a mackerel":

Britain caved in to the EU on the opening day of the Brexit talks, when it agreed to settle its “divorce” before trying to negotiate a future trade deal.

In a major defeat, Brexit Secretary David Davis was forced to drop his central demand for the two strands of the negotiations to be staged in parallel, within hours of arriving in Brussels.

Last month, Mr Davis vowed to wage the “row of the summer” to secure immediate talks on a free trade agreement – predicting an early collapse if the EU refused to give way.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-latest-uk-eu-divorce-deal-government-agrees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html

Edited June 20, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[stevewinn]

7 hours ago, LV-426 said:

And people wonder why there's an appetite for a "hard" Brexit:

Brexit negotiations: Barnier rules out 'concessions'

"The EU's chief negotiator said there would be "substantial" consequences from Brexit after the first round of talks with the UK.

Michel Barnier said he was "not in the frame of mind to make concessions or ask for concessions"."

Does anyone really think men such as this have any care whatsoever for the average British citizen?

Does anyone who now accepts that we are leaving the EU want men like this deciding what laws and policies affect our country?

Or are remainers so vindictive that they'd prefer to see our politicians bent over the negotiating table while offering a submissive smile?

 

I got in from work last night just in time to watch the repeat of the 45 minute press conference between David Davis and Michel Barnier. I knew the media and remoaners would pick up on the "no concessions". and it came right at the end of the press conference, it was the last question asked, the cynic in me would say it was planned, and loaded question as they got David Davis to answer first, and then give Michel Barnier the last word. (the headline grabber)

I was happy with the whole press conference, and how David Davis handled himself. especially when he could have had a cheap shot at Michel Barnier when Barnier talked  about the rights of EU citizens/UK citizens being a priority for the EU. - Well, if we cast our minds back, do people remember when Jean Claude Juncker called Theresa May deluded? that was because the month previous Theresa May said they wanted to sort out the rights of EU/UK citizens as a priority, both parties agreed by the next time they meet they'd have a policy in place, fast forward a month and the 'dinner' between May and Juncker, Theresa May asked Juncker as agreed the previous month what policy the EU had come up with, only for EU to turn up empty handed. and that's why Juncker called May deluded, because she expected the EU to keep their word and have a policy on citizens rights as a matter of priority. so much for it being a priority for the EU.

The EU has a terrible reputation around the world already for negotiating, and not honouring their word. All these Brexit negotiations are going to do is confirm that to the world. the severity of it will be lost in the media as they will be playing to the gallery, but in diplomatic circles around the world, the world will be watching with interest. 

 

 

[stevewinn]

28 minutes ago, eugeneonegin said:

Oh, perhaps you mean this (but perhaps it is a clever ploy, a "sprat to catch a mackerel":

Britain caved in to the EU on the opening day of the Brexit talks, when it agreed to settle its “divorce” before trying to negotiate a future trade deal.

In a major defeat, Brexit Secretary David Davis was forced to drop his central demand for the two strands of the negotiations to be staged in parallel, within hours of arriving in Brussels.

Last month, Mr Davis vowed to wage the “row of the summer” to secure immediate talks on a free trade agreement – predicting an early collapse if the EU refused to give way.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-latest-uk-eu-divorce-deal-government-agrees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html

Do you know when you posted that, all you are doing is positing the opinion of the Journalist who wrote it. the Bolded words.

Context of it all, this was the first day the UK-EU teams have met. if we was to believe the headlines, we might as well just pack our bags and leave now. because what is the point in continuing, the EU is not going to make concessions, Britain as caved in, David Davis as be Forced, Major defeat etc..

The Pro EU independent news paper follows their editorial line and surprise surprise paints the UK as feeble and weak, and that's on day one. 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by stevewinn

[eugenonegin]

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

Do you know when you posted that, all you are doing is positing the opinion of the Journalist who wrote it. the Bolded words.

Context of it all, this was the first day the UK-EU teams have met. if we was to believe the headlines, we might as well just pack our bags and leave now. because what is the point in continuing, the EU is not going to make concessions, Britain as caved in, David Davis as be Forced, Major defeat etc..

The Pro EU independent news paper follows their editorial line and surprise surprise paints the UK as feeble and weak, and that's on day one. 

 

Good thinking.

Well, I certainly don't want to reinforce left-wing politicians, and weaken our position, so I'l think carefully before I post again.

[Space Commander Travis]

3 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

Good thinking.

Well, I certainly don't want to reinforce left-wing politicians, and weaken our position, so I'l think carefully before I post again.

why don't you want to reinforce left-wing politicians? You'd rather the current shambolic lot on the Right continued to shuffle on as they are? 

[eugenonegin]

2 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

why don't you want to reinforce left-wing politicians? You'd rather the current shambolic lot on the Right continued to shuffle on as they are? 

I don't want to derail Brexit now it has got off to such a good start (according to Mr Davis).

[keithisco]

6 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

Oh, perhaps you mean this (but perhaps it is a clever ploy, a "sprat to catch a mackerel":

Britain caved in to the EU on the opening day of the Brexit talks, when it agreed to settle its “divorce” before trying to negotiate a future trade deal.

In a major defeat, Brexit Secretary David Davis was forced to drop his central demand for the two strands of the negotiations to be staged in parallel, within hours of arriving in Brussels.

Last month, Mr Davis vowed to wage the “row of the summer” to secure immediate talks on a free trade agreement – predicting an early collapse if the EU refused to give way.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-latest-uk-eu-divorce-deal-government-agrees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html

Remind me... wasn't it the Independent and the Guardian who both said, no, actually insisted, that the UK negotiators NOT to approach these talks in an adversarial way, and NOT to treat them as a battle???

Yet here we are and the Independent loads its editorial with adversarial invective... what a self-serving, disingenuous rag it truly is.

None of it really makes any difference though-the EU is in "punishment" mode so I see little to no sense in dragging it all out for another 21 months, unless it is to get the Free trade deals wrapped up with the USA and Canada first. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by keithisco

[eugenonegin]

The Chancellor Phillip Hammond has demanded there will be no changes to immigration following Brexit:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/immigration-not-shut-down-declares-10652145

I think the government policy on Brexit negotiations are very clever.

By spelling out as our demands what  we believe the EU will demand of us, we are making it look as if the EU are agreeing to us, rather than us giving way to demands from them! It wrong foots them.

Very, very crafty, because it also means we don't really have to change very much, so negotiations will be much smoother.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[LV-426]

4 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

The Chancellor Phillip Hammond has demanded there will be no changes to immigration following Brexit:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/immigration-not-shut-down-declares-10652145

I think the government policy on Brexit negotiations are very clever.

By spelling out as our demands what  we believe the EU will demand of us, we are making it look as if the EU are agreeing to us, rather than us giving way to demands from them! It wrong foots them.

Very, very crafty, because it also means we don't really have to change very much, so negotiations will be much smoother.

There's nothing clever about it.

Hammond fancies the PM job, so instead of supporting what the country needs right now, i.e. a government with some degree of unity, he's sharpening his dagger for May, and putting his own personal ambitions first.

What he'll actually do if he succeeds is push more voters towards Labour, or in my case, away from politics altogether - I'm getting pretty sick of the lot of them to be honest.

[Space Commander Travis]

So if Ms. May somehow manages to cling on to the Top Job that's likely to bring about national unity? She's very clearly turned out to be the worst and least unified leader since, well, since D. Cameron, G. Brown and T. Blair.  Do people really think that there'd be a better chance of unity and harmony and bringing a divided nation together under her than under, say, Mr. Hammond? If someone has to replace Ms. May (which has to happen before long, surely), would Mr. Hammond be preferable to the other most likely candidate? Then Boris could go and become the full-time host of Have I Got News For You and everyone would be happy. And Mr. Hammond might perhaps not dramatically crash cars so often. Oh, that's Richard, sorry. Always get them mixed up. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[stevewinn]

11 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

The Chancellor Phillip Hammond has demanded there will be no changes to immigration following Brexit:http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/immigration-not-shut-down-declares-10652145

I think the government policy on Brexit negotiations are very clever.

By spelling out as our demands what  we believe the EU will demand of us, we are making it look as if the EU are agreeing to us, rather than us giving way to demands from them! It wrong foots them.

Very, very crafty, because it also means we don't really have to change very much, so negotiations will be much smoother.

 

 

Where did the line;  "The Chancellor Phillip Hammond has demanded there will be no changes to immigration following Brexit"  Whose spinning that line? you or the source?

Philip Hammond stated in his speech what we've always known and voted for. for some strange reason, the remoaners always portray Brexit as shutting the borders, pulling up the drawbridge and all immigration stopping, No-one voted for that, what people voted for was for the UK to regain control of its borders from the EU.

of course the continuation of immigration will continue but not in the same vein as the EU's free movement of people. if you come here to work have the skills required by the economy, or your company requires you to move across frontiers then that will continue.

What will stop is the discrimination of migrant workers from outside the EU, as it stands today the UK can control non-EU immigration, but not EU-immigration. as a result migrant workers from the likes of Canada, Australia New Zealand, America, India, etc.. countries we have strong cultural and historical links can be refused entry in a bid to reduce immigration, yet, meanwhile any number of people including non-skilled people from the EU can enter the UK and not be refused entry.

So after Brexit, If any EU citizen as the skills required by the economy and as a job waiting for them then they are more than welcome. What is no longer welcome is the totally bonkers system of free movement of people, even if your economy DOESNT require them skills. 

if the UK economy requires 20,000 engineers those 20,000 engineers can be sourced from around the world, Those that are CHOSEN, it doesn't matter if they are a mixture from around the world or all come from Mars or Europe as long as they are the brightest and the best for the role.

And i believe that as always been the point. immigration continues but controlled. the same sensible system operated by the likes of Australia, America, China, Japan, South Korea, Canada, and the other 160'dd countries around the world.

The remoaners are growing more and more desperate by the day. They see Philip Hammond as a remainer and were quoting Philip Hammond on staying in the customs union, on the sunday politics show he came out and said we are leaving the single market and customs union. So the remoaners have gone quiet on that and now misquoting any speech he does. like this one on immigration.

 

 

 

[Space Commander Travis]

Ms. May's philosophy, if you can call it that, seems to be to abandon everything that she promised (which wasn't very much in the first place) and just bang on relentlessly with pre-programmed slogan #2 (#1, '#strong and stable', having been dropped) and doggedly insist on a very firm Brexit indeed just out of sheer stubbornness it seems really. Do you think that's out of some belief that this will be her legacy and will mark her short reign's place in history, that it might make things as awkward as possible for her successor, so she could then sit back smugly and watch Philip, or David*, or best of all Boris, have to handle the whole damn business, or that the people, by not being grateful enough to give her the authority to do what she liked that she wanted, deserve to have things made as awkward as possible if they insist on wanting to continue to have any contact with the dark continent,  or just out of sheer dogma and a sheer visceral hatred of Europe and all its deeds? 

 

* Davis that is, not Cameron

[hetrodoxly]

Labour campaigned on leaving the EU as did the conservatives, between them they got 80% of the vote the public voted to leave the EU again, let them get on with 'it' it being

"the best deal we can get while leaving the single market" 

[hetrodoxly]

On 20/06/2017 at 11:31 AM, stevewinn said:

Do you know when you posted that, all you are doing is positing the opinion of the Journalist who wrote it. the Bolded words.

Context of it all, this was the first day the UK-EU teams have met. if we was to believe the headlines, we might as well just pack our bags and leave now. because what is the point in continuing, the EU is not going to make concessions, Britain as caved in, David Davis as be Forced, Major defeat etc..

The Pro EU independent news paper follows their editorial line and surprise surprise paints the UK as feeble and weak, and that's on day one. 

 

I've always blamed the BBC for being biased but generally thought they have to lean to one side a bit, but it's gone far beyond that from setting people up, fake news and bare face lies, to tell the truth i'm starting to worry about it.

[eugenonegin]

3 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Labour campaigned on leaving the EU as did the conservatives, between them they got 80% of the vote the public voted to leave the EU again, let them get on with 'it' it being

"the best deal we can get while leaving the single market" 

It was not 80% leave, it was 52/48.

If it had been a 80/20 result, or even 60/40, we than could say that the UK voted overwhelmingly to leave the UK.

Business Insider is saying the UK has only two choices now, reverse Article 50 or opt for soft Brexit:http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/may-is-essentially-being-forced-to-either-reverse-article-50-or-seal-a-soft-brexit-deal-for-britain/ar-BBCEFTL?ocid=uie11msnhpl

Which may be just as well, as if the UK can't negotiate successfully with the tin-pot DUP ten member party (no agreement has been reached), how will they manage to negotiate with the EU?

I'm just asking.

And will watch with interest.

Edited June 21, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[LV-426]

3 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

Business Insider is saying the UK has only two choices now, reverse Article 50 or opt for soft Brexit:http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/may-is-essentially-being-forced-to-either-reverse-article-50-or-seal-a-soft-brexit-deal-for-britain/ar-BBCEFTL?ocid=uie11msnhpl

So... reverse a democratic vote, or have a Brexit deal that is actually worse than staying in the EU?

Not aimed at yourself eugeneonegin, but the way a section of our population have done everything in their power to reverse, undermine and weaken our position, and our country as a whole, makes be ashamed to be British.

I think it's time to call a day on this particular subject for me.

Good luck to us all for the future, and I'll catch you in the other threads!

[Space Commander Travis]

Frankly I'm increasingly coming to think it's all a fraud anyway. Be Free from the Unelected Tyrants of Brussels, and be free to be governed by the incompetents of our very own freely elected Government? (Whoever may be in charge, it won't make the slightest difference of course, it's hardly that Ms. May is uniquely incompetent, in fact she's probably a lot more competent than, well, certainly than the leading candidate to take over her job, and equally, sincere as he may be, I don't think J. Corbyn's policies are really very practical and if he was to be in office, he'd soon realise that it's a lot easier to make yourself look strong and competent in opposition than it is in office.) 

[Space Commander Travis]

7 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

It was not 80% leave, it was 52/48.

I presume he means in the recent Election.