Brexit

[bee]

2 minutes ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

That's the whole point though, its' not. it's parliament over-ruling the vote of the public. How is that democratic? Alibongo? explain please? 

.

given half a chance they would (over-rule the public) on this - and Miller has given them half a chance - 

she was probably alone in her house after the referendum having a nice cup of tea and waiting to go for a hairdressing 
appointment, flicking through the Financial Times when she suddenly went --- wait a minute what's that in the room - it's an elephant!!! 
And with no discussion with anyone not even her husband she grabs her (expensive) coat and dashes off to her lawyer to save the
British People - gawd bless 'er -  

.  

[alibongo]

1 hour ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

Why do you believe that MPs know what's best, or in fact for that matter have any knowledge about anything? You never have actually answered that. Besides that, what makes you so smugly confident that MPs would do the Right Thing (i.e. block brexit)? You realise that if MPs do somehow do that, it'll probably provoke a terminal rift between the public (outside London and Scotland anyway, do try to remember, through your smugness, that it was by a long way London and Scotland that disproportionally skewed the result to look a lot closer than it was in most of England) and those who were supposedly elected to "represent" them? Perhaps this is what you want. Perhaps you are in fact an undercover anarchist, and you want to explode the outdated system of parliamentary "democracy", in which case I app;aud you. 

It is not a question of whether our MPs know best.

It is how our democratic system works.

[Space Commander Travis]

5 minutes ago, alibongo said:

If you can't see that parliament ruling, or over-ruling, as you put it, the wishes of the people, or the wishes of a government, is a good thing, then you don't understand what democracy is.

Do you want a country governed by mob rule?

Would we be better off without democracy and allow our government to "just get on with things?"

The Tories must be giddy with the opportunities for complete power being offered to them by the Brexit idiots.

how is parliament over-ruling the wishes of the public democractic? How does that, in fact, differ from dictatorship?

 

Quote

"Would we be better off without democracy and allow our government to "just get on with things?"

But that's what you're saying should happen. 

[Space Commander Travis]

 

6 minutes ago, alibongo said:

It is not a question of whether our MPs know best.

It is how our democratic system works.

So how does it work then? Why do MPs have the right to over-rule the wishes of the people? Since your knowledge is superior to the plebs, I'm sure you'll be able to explain persuasively.

[Grey Area]

1 minute ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

 

So how does it work then? Why do MPs have the right to over-rule the wishes of the people? Since your knowledge is superior to the plebs, I'm sure you'll be able to explain persuasively.

Because they are educated and some have degrees!

[Space Commander Travis]

Just now, Grey Area said:

Because they are educated and some have degrees!

And George Osborne had a 2;1 in Modern History! And that qualified him to be in charge of the nation's economy!  

[Grey Area]

On ‎06‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:38 AM, Silver_Lyre said:

Well... insinuating that the judges that ruled that PM May does not own brexit are sleep deprived is criticism, buddy.

I was simply suggesting they were human, they put their hands in a black box and everything!  Is that criticism?  If so sorry... Buddy!

This is based on my experiences with Judges that work the family courts and decide the futures of families and children.  Do you have experiences to suggest they are not human and in fact giant decision making computers? 

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, alibongo said:

If you can't see that parliament ruling, or over-ruling, as you put it, the wishes of the people, or the wishes of a government, is a good thing, then you don't understand what democracy is.

Do you want a country governed by mob rule?

Would we be better off without democracy and allow our government to "just get on with things?"

The Tories must be giddy with the opportunities for complete power being offered to them by the Brexit idiots.

Next time you write about Democracy I think its worth remembering that MP's are elected by the people to represent the people in their constituencies. in our democracy its the citizens who wield the power and only temporarily hand that power over to their elected MP so they can be represented in the house of commons. - What you are actually advocating is the majority of MP;s should now having been elected they should ignore or defy their constituents the very people who elected them. is that Democracy in your book?

If you believe in Democracy like your trying portray and MP's adhere to the principle of office Parliament could meet tomorrow and vote through the motion to trigger Article 50 and all this what's going on today would be over.

But lets remind ourselves you are the same person who declared on these forums you didn't even bother to vote, straight away i thought it was because you was age 16, especially when you consider your posting in the computer game section, I have to hand it to you i don't know many, well any 60 year old's playing First person shooters. but anyway so that's how much you believe actively taking part in democracy, you couldn't be bothered to get down to your polling station or even worse you was not even motivated to register for a postal vote. you are much like the Lady who brought this case only interested in Democracy when it suits. Where have the pair of you been for the last 43 years with your concerns for democracy.

Since the referendum the Remoaners have done nothing but talk the country down hoping for a disaster all so they could say we told you so, what sort of people are they, that they'd love to see the country suffer just so they could say we were right. But because things have gone well none of the doom from the soothsayers as materialised they switched to Hard Brexit Soft Brexit that was dead in the water so private individuals backed by the dead hand of the EU but apparently their own money have taken the government through the courts. None of this is about Demoracy its all about blocking Brexit or somehow worked so we remain within the EU.

This lady who brought the court case is just the mouth piece but who's really pulling the strings, because all this holding her up as the great saviour of democracy is a joke. because if that was true why is it a private individual or individuals who've brought this case? why wasn't it any of the current 650 MP's sitting in the house of commons why didn't the Scottish Government take the case up, and take the Government to court. - Its clear what's going on here.

 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

I was simply suggesting they were human, they put their hands in a black box and everything!  Is that criticism?  If so sorry... Buddy!

This is based on my experiences with Judges that work the family courts and decide the futures of families and children.  Do you have experiences to suggest they are not human and in fact giant decision making computers? 

Navigating around parliamentary law is pretty straight forward. They make a mistake and its picked up by someone else and appealed. Procedual law just can't be played with. In this case PM May is trying to own brexit and my understanding is that the judgement is academic. Parliament has the last say. There are no two ways around it. May and the brexiteers have to concede that the MP's need to vote on it. May tried to bluff her way through and her bluff was called. Family court matters are variable rich and therefore the judge makes a common sense call. Unfortunately parliaments and politicians the world over just don't do commonsense, as witnessed by the brexit debacle. 

I don't doubt your experience or question it just that i can't see how a family court matter has much in common with a parliamentary matter in procedural law. 

[Unusual Tournament]

7 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Next time you write about Democracy I think its worth remembering that MP's are elected by the people to represent the people in their constituencies. in our democracy its the citizens who wield the power and only temporarily hand that power over to their elected MP so they can be represented in the house of commons. - What you are actually advocating is the majority of MP;s should now having been elected they should ignore or defy their constituents the very people who elected them. is that Democracy in your book?

If you believe in Democracy like your trying portray and MP's adhere to the principle of office Parliament could meet tomorrow and vote through the motion to trigger Article 50 and all this what's going on today would be over.

But lets remind ourselves you are the same person who declared on these forums you didn't even bother to vote, straight away i thought it was because you was age 16, especially when you consider your posting in the computer game section, I have to hand it to you i don't know many, well any 60 year old's playing First person shooters. but anyway so that's how much you believe actively taking part in democracy, you couldn't be bothered to get down to your polling station or even worse you was not even motivated to register for a postal vote. you are much like the Lady who brought this case only interested in Democracy when it suits. Where have the pair of you been for the last 43 years with your concerns for democracy.

Since the referendum the Remoaners have done nothing but talk the country down hoping for a disaster all so they could say we told you so, what sort of people are they, that they'd love to see the country suffer just so they could say we were right. But because things have gone well none of the doom from the soothsayers as materialised they switched to Hard Brexit Soft Brexit that was dead in the water so private individuals backed by the dead hand of the EU but apparently their own money have taken the government through the courts. None of this is about Demoracy its all about blocking Brexit or somehow worked so we remain within the EU.

This lady who brought the court case is just the mouth piece but who's really pulling the strings, because all this holding her up as the great saviour of democracy is a joke. because if that was true why is it a private individual or individuals who've brought this case? why wasn't it any of the current 650 MP's sitting in the house of commons why didn't the Scottish Government take the case up, and take the Government to court. - Its clear what's going on here.

 

MP's are elected by the people BUT they are subject to the laws of the land too. No where in the brexit referendum did it say how brexit was to happen and in which manner. May and Co didn't get a blank cheque. May needs to consult on the best way and reach consensus. Thats her job. Parliament gets to vote and approve it. The rest of your rant is just sour grapes... 

[cyclopes500]

I know one reason why I'm not happy with the judges decision. I presume once parliament has agreed and said yes that yes has to go onto the house of Lords, and if memory serves me right it's full of EU loving lords. A lot of these lords are liberals who are venomously pro EU and NOT voted in, and therefore not subject to the wrath of voters. Hence my idea of using a guillotine in another post. Also I've just remembered a lot of them are bottom burglars too and a blackmail risk. Unlike an elected government this lot can say NO and stick their heads in the sand like a flock of Ostriches when their colleagues in the commons say Yes.

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

 

So how does it work then? Why do MPs have the right to over-rule the wishes of the people? Since your knowledge is superior to the plebs, I'm sure you'll be able to explain persuasively.

Where in the referendum does it say that the PM gets to negotiate brexit as she/he feels fit too? It doesn't. The people's wishes are being respected... is parliament and democracy being respected by May?

Edited November 7, 2016 by Silver_Lyre

[Black Monk]

Good news for Brexiteers:

The Government is already preparing the first draft of a Brexit bill after the shock legal decision ruling Theresa May cannot trigger Article 50 without approval by MPs, it has emerged.

It is being reported that officials are already preparing the legislation so Parliament can vote to start the formal process to leave the EU.

The news, reported by Sky News, would suggest the Government is less sure it will be successful in its appeal to the Supreme Court to overturn the judgment.

This could mean her plans to begin Brexit would be rubber stamped in a single, rather than having to go through the process of getting MPs and peers to debate, amend and finally vote on a bill.

Last week's shock High Court ruling led many Brexiteers to worry that Parliament could water down Brexit and only give Britain "soft Brexit", which would be as good as still remaining in the EU with the UK still having to accept free movement of people.

However, the Brexit bill would prevent any Remain supporters in Parliament from placing conditions on the PM’s negotiating stance, such as making sure she cannot get rid of free movement or take Britain out of the Single Market.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2130648/government-is-already-drafting-a-brexit-bill-as-minister-hints-they-may-try-and-fast-track-it-through-parliament/

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Black Monk

[cyclopes500]

Because 52% of the people said OUT Silver lyre. Isnt that enough.

[Black Monk]

39 minutes ago, cyclopes500 said:

I know one reason why I'm not happy with the judges decision. I presume once parliament has agreed and said yes that yes has to go onto the house of Lords, and if memory serves me right it's full of EU loving lords. A lot of these lords are liberals who are venomously pro EU and NOT voted in, and therefore not subject to the wrath of voters. Hence my idea of using a guillotine in another post. Also I've just remembered a lot of them are bottom burglars too and a blackmail risk. Unlike an elected government this lot can say NO and stick their heads in the sand like a flock of Ostriches when their colleagues in the commons say Yes.

Fortunately, the Lords cannot block Brexit.

And anyway, May can always just pack the Lords with 1000 Brexiteer peers.

[Space Commander Travis]

2 hours ago, Silver_Lyre said:

Where in the referendum does it say that the PM gets to negotiate brexit as she/he feels fit too? It doesn't. The people's wishes are being respected... is parliament and democracy being respected by May?

i don't understand your argument. The people voted, by a considerable majority in most places outside London and Scotland to say No. What Alibongo wants is the MPs to go against that and vote against it. Why is that respecting the wishes of the people? This isn't about negotiating brexit to get the best deal, what Alibono and this whatever her name was, this person who provoked the Judges to make this ruling thing, want is for the vote to be overturned. 

[kenniboy]

Brexit voters should cheer the Judges for upholding the sovereignty of Parliament,after all  thats what they wanted ==== or did they?

[keithisco]

On ‎05‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 11:38 AM, Emma_Acid said:

 

 

  

[keithisco]

18 minutes ago, kenniboy said:

Brexit voters should cheer the Judges for upholding the sovereignty of Parliament,after all  thats what they wanted ==== or did they?

You seem to forget that Parliament is answerable to the People. A referendum is the purest form of democracy as it is the clearest expression of the Peoples ' Will. Parliamentary Sovereignty is given to it by the People, and by them alone.

When the People answered the question there were 2 choices: Leave or Remain, not Leave or Remain with caveats, therefore it is entirely within the remit of the Government to proceed as it believes it should in adhering to that vote. If anything, the People voted to halt Brussels from being Sovereign over every aspect of UK life. 

[skookum]

She has wasted her money.  Out is out and even the most hardened remainer would have to agree that it would not be as simple as going to Europe and saying "It is ok we have managed to find a back door to stay in against the voters will" and think we would be invited to stay with open arms.

Europe has had time to absorb the impact of the UK referendum and move on, to their own success I hope.  I doubt they want the unrest again of six months of unrest that will 99% produce the same result.

Friends and colleagues who were bitter Remainers at the referendum seem to be more hardliners to leaving than me.  It is a fairy tale that another vote would produce a massive stay victory.

 

[Space Commander Travis]

1 hour ago, kenniboy said:

Brexit voters should cheer the Judges for upholding the sovereignty of Parliament,after all  thats what they wanted ==== or did they?

 

50 minutes ago, keithisco said:

You seem to forget that Parliament is answerable to the People. A referendum is the purest form of democracy as it is the clearest expression of the Peoples ' Will. Parliamentary Sovereignty is given to it by the People, and by them alone.

When the People answered the question there were 2 choices: Leave or Remain, not Leave or Remain with caveats, therefore it is entirely within the remit of the Government to proceed as it believes it should in adhering to that vote. If anything, the People voted to halt Brussels from being Sovereign over every aspect of UK life. 

Yes, why should the sovereignty of parliament mean having the authority to overrule the wishes of the people they're supposed to represent? 

[alibongo]

UK to set up "People's Courts":http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/brexiters-set-up-demented-peoples-courts-20161107116638

Quote

Brexiters set up demented ‘people’s courts’

BREXIT supporters have set up a network of ‘people’s courts’ where justice is based on popular opinion.

Anti-EU Britons’ dissatisfaction with the legal system has led to the creation of makeshift courts dealing with everything from witchcraft to disputes over borrowed garden tools.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Saru
Trimmed quoted material for length

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, keithisco said:

You seem to forget that Parliament is answerable to the People. A referendum is the purest form of democracy as it is the clearest expression of the Peoples ' Will. Parliamentary Sovereignty is given to it by the People, and by them alone.

When the People answered the question there were 2 choices: Leave or Remain, not Leave or Remain with caveats, therefore it is entirely within the remit of the Government to proceed as it believes it should in adhering to that vote. If anything, the People voted to halt Brussels from being Sovereign over every aspect of UK life. 

Hang on dude. The referendum wasn't on party lines. The Tories didn't win any mandate to do as they like. Parliament was empowered by the people to brexit. Thats what the court ruling say's. The government of the day introduces debate and substance and parliament acts on it. May just wants her brexit thesis to be the one without any over sight. But again Cameron messed it up by not defining what type of brexit the country was voting on. I can understand the confusion. Its a mess. 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 hours ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

i don't understand your argument. The people voted, by a considerable majority in most places outside London and Scotland to say No. What Alibongo wants is the MPs to go against that and vote against it. Why is that respecting the wishes of the people? This isn't about negotiating brexit to get the best deal, what Alibono and this whatever her name was, this person who provoked the Judges to make this ruling thing, want is for the vote to be overturned. 

The people voted for brexit. They didn't vote for May's interpretation of brexit. There are any forms of brexit and the hard core brexiteers don't have a mandate of any sorts other than to brexit within the bounds of parliament and the law. I just think its legally impossible to negotiate brexit if parliament can't agree. The referendum unfortunately raised just as many questions as it answered and the mess is no sooner than being cleaned up. I understand your reasons for wanting May to have extra latitude in negotiating BUT that would be wrong. Cause not every one that voted to leave voted for the concept of hard brexit. 

Its not fair giving the hard core brexiteers ownership of brexit.

[Unusual Tournament]

58 minutes ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

 

Yes, why should the sovereignty of parliament mean having the authority to overrule the wishes of the people they're supposed to represent? 

Parliament is the people mate. They are all elected officials. This isn't animal farm. All animals are equal including the pigs.