Brexit

[bee]

.

hoorah for the political peasants
 

 

[keithisco]

22 minutes ago, Silver_Lyre said:

Parliament is the people mate. They are all elected officials. This isn't animal farm. All animals are equal including the pigs. 

No it isn't Mate...but yes they are elected "officials", elected by a voting system where each vote is not equally weighted (First Past the Post System). This is why the ONLY time democracy is given a voice is when a referendum is held. 

In this case Brexit easily won a vote where every vote actually counted - Leave the EU was the result, and the EU demands open borders to remain in the single market and customs union kinda inform the Brexit process wouldn't you say?

[kenniboy]

We live in a representative parliamentary democracy which means we elect mp's and they use their judgement in making decisions.Thats what leavers wanted our parliamentary democracy back

 

[Torchwood]

After we fought a civil war during  which hundreds of thousands of our countrymen died in order to make sure that those elected by the people actually had a say in matters that affected the people it is a bit messed up to say "no, parliament cant have it say, and make sure were getting a good deal, we're going to do this exactly as this bunch of uncontrollable autocrats dictates, no matter how much they want to leave us up the creek without a paddle"

 

I'm pretty certain that a certain king got his noggin knocked off to make sure that sort of think didn't happen again...

[alibongo]

11 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Next time you write about Democracy I think its worth remembering that MP's are elected by the people to represent the people in their constituencies. in our democracy its the citizens who wield the power and only temporarily hand that power over to their elected MP so they can be represented in the house of commons. - What you are actually advocating is the majority of MP;s should now having been elected they should ignore or defy their constituents the very people who elected them. is that Democracy in your book?

If you believe in Democracy like your trying portray and MP's adhere to the principle of office Parliament could meet tomorrow and vote through the motion to trigger Article 50 and all this what's going on today would be over.

But lets remind ourselves you are the same person who declared on these forums you didn't even bother to vote, straight away i thought it was because you was age 16, especially when you consider your posting in the computer game section, I have to hand it to you i don't know many, well any 60 year old's playing First person shooters. but anyway so that's how much you believe actively taking part in democracy, you couldn't be bothered to get down to your polling station or even worse you was not even motivated to register for a postal vote. you are much like the Lady who brought this case only interested in Democracy when it suits. Where have the pair of you been for the last 43 years with your concerns for democracy.

Since the referendum the Remoaners have done nothing but talk the country down hoping for a disaster all so they could say we told you so, what sort of people are they, that they'd love to see the country suffer just so they could say we were right. But because things have gone well none of the doom from the soothsayers as materialised they switched to Hard Brexit Soft Brexit that was dead in the water so private individuals backed by the dead hand of the EU but apparently their own money have taken the government through the courts. None of this is about Demoracy its all about blocking Brexit or somehow worked so we remain within the EU.

This lady who brought the court case is just the mouth piece but who's really pulling the strings, because all this holding her up as the great saviour of democracy is a joke. because if that was true why is it a private individual or individuals who've brought this case? why wasn't it any of the current 650 MP's sitting in the house of commons why didn't the Scottish Government take the case up, and take the Government to court. - Its clear what's going on here.

 

So 60-year olds shouldn't play FPS games? Well, maybe. Perhaps I should be leaning on my garden fence chewing on a piece of straw saying"Them new fangled cars, can't get my 'ead around them, what's wrong with horses, I'd like to know". That's what 60-year olds do, right?

Or is the problem that a person who likes FPS games should be excluded from political debates?

It is true I didn't bother to vote because I was confident of a remain outcome (along with about 30% of the population).

The true vote was just over one third of the population voted to leave the EU.Without any idea of what they were voting for.

The majority would say: so our Parliament can take control and say sucks to Brussels, but now, the first time Parliament attempts to take control, they say, oh, we thought we were voting on mob rule taking control!

 

[Space Commander Travis]

10 hours ago, kenniboy said:

We live in a representative parliamentary democracy which means we elect mp's and they use their judgement in making decisions.Thats what leavers wanted our parliamentary democracy back

 

But that's exactly what's wrong with it! This is what I keep asking, what gives MPs (many of whom have no experience or qualifications in any actual career or profession and no professional knowledge of the subjects that they claim to be the ultimate source of wisdom about) superior wisdom to the general masses? What gives them superior judgement? 

[Space Commander Travis]

8 hours ago, alibongo said:

The true vote was just over one third of the population voted to leave the EU.Without any idea of what they were voting for.

What do you mean? Whether to leave the EU or not. It's a simple yes/no question. All this fannying about with "hard brexit" and "soft brexit" and "slightly firm brexit" is just fussing about with details. It was a very simple question. 

[Space Commander Travis]

8 hours ago, alibongo said:

The majority would say: so our Parliament can take control and say sucks to Brussels, but now, the first time Parliament attempts to take control, they say, oh, we thought we were voting on mob rule taking control!

Only those who are still naive enough to believe that parliament is any source of wisdom. Particularly when factions within this Parliament seem intent on reversing the wishes of the public because they know better (in other words, they have their own political agenda to pursue). Surely you can see that can't you, it's all to do with power struggles within the Labour Party and the Scottish people's heroic struggle for Freedom (as part of the EU).

[bee]

.

a brief recap

the decision of whether to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU was handed to the people 

a referendum took place

the majority voted to Leave

The government in power now lead by Teresa May has made it clear they will serve the people,
take instruction from the result and endevour to make the leaving as painless and successful as possible

those who disagree with the referendum decision are hell bent on sabotaging the process and making it
as difficult as possible using various ploys - like 'soft' Brexit and wanting to hold the government to ransom
over triggering Article 50 - with all the anti Brexit MPs chomping at the bit to try and water down and thwart 
the referendum decision with amendments and whatnot - 

..

[alibongo]

1 minute ago, bee said:

.

a brief recap

the decision of whether to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU was handed to the people 

a referendum took place

the majority voted to Leave

The government in power now lead by Teresa May has made it clear they will serve the people,
take instruction from the result and endevour to make the leaving as painless and successful as possible

those who disagree with the referendum decision are hell bent on sabotaging the process and making it
as difficult as possible using various ploys - like 'soft' Brexit and wanting to hold the government to ransom
over triggering Article 50 - with all the anti Brexit MPs chomping at the bit to try and water down and thwart 
the referendum decision with amendments and whatnot - 

..

Like GMT, ("But that's exactly what's wrong with it! This is what I keep asking, what gives MPs (many of whom have no experience or qualifications in any actual career or profession and no professional knowledge of the subjects that they claim to be the ultimate source of wisdom about) superior wisdom to the general masses? What gives them superior judgement?" ) you don't understand how a parliamentary democracy works, do you?

[Space Commander Travis]

1 minute ago, alibongo said:

Like GMT, ("But that's exactly what's wrong with it! This is what I keep asking, what gives MPs (many of whom have no experience or qualifications in any actual career or profession and no professional knowledge of the subjects that they claim to be the ultimate source of wisdom about) superior wisdom to the general masses? What gives them superior judgement?" ) you don't understand how a parliamentary democracy works, do you?

Oh stop being so smug that you do know it all and answer people's questions for once will you. You may understand how it supposedly works, but does that mean that it does actually work or that it's still an adequate system?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Grand Moff Tarkin

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, bee said:

.

a brief recap

the decision of whether to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU was handed to the people 

a referendum took place

the majority voted to Leave

The government in power now lead by Teresa May has made it clear they will serve the people,
take instruction from the result and endevour to make the leaving as painless and successful as possible

those who disagree with the referendum decision are hell bent on sabotaging the process and making it
as difficult as possible using various ploys - like 'soft' Brexit and wanting to hold the government to ransom
over triggering Article 50 - with all the anti Brexit MPs chomping at the bit to try and water down and thwart 
the referendum decision with amendments and whatnot - 

..

Last night on BBC Parliament channel i seen Nigel Farage giving one of his sterling performances in the EU Parliament and the new name for the Remainers is quislings. as he called nick Clegg and Ed Milliband.

 

Theresa May speaking in the Jewel in the Crown of the Commonwealth.

 

                 

The Rt Hon Jacob Rees Mogg MP.

                

Edited November 8, 2016 by stevewinn

[Grey Area]

This is my take on the situation.

very few have an actual problem with parliament debating this, the judges made a sensible ruling that when laid out does make sense.

the problem is this.  Remainers were perfectly happy to let UK democracy take a back seat and hand more and more power to Brussels, and then all of a sudden, UK democracy matters when things don't go their own way.

then and if you glance back to earlier threads just after the vote, the remoan crowd were highly critical (to put it mildly) that Brexit wasn't happening immediately, and the brexiteers were pushing for a steady, planned withdrawal, then suddenly there is a big remain push to slow/halt the process and claims that the government is wrong to proceed.

this is what rankles me.  But I do respect the law, in all its perverse complexity, I do personally think, regardless of how right or wrong the court ruling is, we do need to let the government get on with it, and given the divide, any debate will serve to complicate the process further.

[Unusual Tournament]

5 hours ago, Grey Area said:

This is my take on the situation.

very few have an actual problem with parliament debating this, the judges made a sensible ruling that when laid out does make sense.

the problem is this.  Remainers were perfectly happy to let UK democracy take a back seat and hand more and more power to Brussels, and then all of a sudden, UK democracy matters when things don't go their own way.

then and if you glance back to earlier threads just after the vote, the remoan crowd were highly critical (to put it mildly) that Brexit wasn't happening immediately, and the brexiteers were pushing for a steady, planned withdrawal, then suddenly there is a big remain push to slow/halt the process and claims that the government is wrong to proceed.

this is what rankles me.  But I do respect the law, in all its perverse complexity, I do personally think, regardless of how right or wrong the court ruling is, we do need to let the government get on with it, and given the divide, any debate will serve to complicate the process further.

Well by definition staying in the EU is submitting to EU laws. Thats what the retainers wanted. The UK always had democracy while it was a member of the EU... it came freely and it leaves freely, now. The problem with brexit was that it was half baked from the onset. There was no plan. Just leave. The leave vote won and the brexit camp looked and acted like stun mullets. The result was more than they could hope for. Brexit should have been triggered within days of a new PM being installed. Don't know why it wasn't. Such a momentous event should have IMO been approached with confidence and certainty. Instead the brexiteers were hesitant and unsure of what to do next. That's why i think that the retainers wanted leave to get on with, cause they wanted the show up the amateurism that dominated the leave campaign. 

...and the process looks like getting even more complex and tedious... 

Scottish government seeks to intervene in Brexit case

Scottish government seeks to intervene in Brexit case

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-37909299

[Torchwood]

What he /\ said...in spades.

Brexit should happen as the people have requested.  (I still don't think it will) . But it needs to be done properly, and its far to important to let one person, no matter how good their intentions, sort it out, and its wrong for her to be allowed to hide behind the authority of the Queen when challenged.

 

The Civil War was fought to make sure they can't do that! If you think the Royalists should have won maybe we need to go around again? 

 

As to whether the Scots should be allowed to have a go is another matter- I'd recommend the creation of Combined Parliamentarian Comittee to examine the issues and the Governments plans (IF they actually have any!) and give it the yays or the neighs as appropriate. 

 

Did anyone catch this btw? apparently one of the backers for the woman who took it to court was a brexiteer (the other was a hairdresser)  who wants brexit but doesn't the Govt making a pigs ear of it.  Im not sure what the hairdressing agenda is vis a vis brexit.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Torchwood

[Unusual Tournament]

15 minutes ago, Torchwood said:

What he /\ said...in spades.

Brexit should happen as the people have requested.  (I still don't think it will) . But it needs to be done properly, and its far to important to let one person, no matter how good their intentions, sort it out, and its wrong for her to be allowed to hide behind the authority of the Queen when challenged.

 

The Civil War was fought to make sure they can't do that! If you think the Royalists should have won maybe we need to go around again? 

 

As to whether the Scots should be allowed to have a go is another matter- I'd recommend the creation of Combined Parliamentarian Comittee to examine the issues and the Governments plans (IF they actually have any!) and give it the yays or the neighs as appropriate. 

 

Did anyone catch this btw? apparently one of the backers for the woman who took it to court was a brexiteer (the other was a hairdresser)  who wants brexit but doesn't the Govt making a pigs ear of it.  Im not sure what the hairdressing agenda is vis a vis brexit.

Regarding the bolded: Yes that would be the right thing to do. All of the British nations should be constructive in the process and have their concerns addressed. The UK voted leave and all the nations that are part of the UK should respect that vote, collectively. But NI and Scotland will use this to push their agenda. The cat is outta the bag. Good luck in pushing that one back in. Brexit will have repercussions.  

[hetrodoxly]

On 07/11/2016 at 9:29 PM, Torchwood said:

After we fought a civil war during  which hundreds of thousands of our countrymen died in order to make sure that those elected by the people actually had a say in matters that affected the people it is a bit messed up to say "no, parliament cant have it say, and make sure were getting a good deal, we're going to do this exactly as this bunch of uncontrollable autocrats dictates, no matter how much they want to leave us up the creek without a paddle"

 

I'm pretty certain that a certain king got his noggin knocked off to make sure that sort of think didn't happen again...

Then we gave it all away to the EU, don't worry it's coming home.

[Torchwood]

13 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Then we gave it all away to the EU, don't worry it's coming home.

Dont be silly, if we had then there wouldn't have been able to be a court case to insist parliament has a say...

[stevewinn]

9 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Then we gave it all away to the EU, don't worry it's coming home.

damn right, we were told our Sovereignty wasn't being handed over to the EU since then Prime Minister Theresa May as stated about regaining our sovereignty.

Hey more good News we've just gone from the back of the queue post-Brexit Trade deal with the USA (obama) to the Front of the queue with President Trump. now add that to the list of lies by the Leave Campaign.

Vote to Leave will cause.

The country will go into a year long Recession starting in Q3 2016 

House Prices will fall by 10%

500,000 Jobs will be Lost.

Emergency Budget

World War 3

Families will be 4,500 a year worse off.

Nissan will Leave the UK

Speech made by President Obama on his final visit to the UK. If Britain votes to Leave they'll be back of the queue.in any US trade Deal

2016 a vintage year, Brexit and Donald Trump Elected, The Left don't like it up 'em.

 

[hetrodoxly]

10 hours ago, Torchwood said:

Dont be silly, if we had then there wouldn't have been able to be a court case to insist parliament has a say...

If you'd known the facts i bet your vote would have been Brexit 'EU law overrules British law' we Brexiters had you in mind when we voted, no need to thank us.

[hetrodoxly]

We're no longer at the back of the queue with America

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

We're no longer at the back of the queue with America

 

[keithisco]

I believe that Brexit, which vindicated the power of the ordinary person to overcome the "Establishment", informed this result, and will serve as an omen to those other smug, comfortable nation-state establishment types facing elections in the next 12 months in Europe.

Edited November 9, 2016 by keithisco
"It's editing, stoopid"

[Torchwood]

1 hour ago, keithisco said:

I believe that Brexit, which vindicated the power of the ordinary person to overcome the "Establishment", informed this result, and will serve as an omen to those other smug, comfortable nation-state establishment types facing elections in the next 12 months in Europe.

Except if that was true nobody would be surprised by Trump ending up as POTUS

[Black Monk]

8 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

We're no longer at the back of the queue with America

Mr Trump is half-British, don't forget.

First Brexit, now Trump! Two massive blows to the arrogant, out-of-touch, sneering, PC liberal Establishment which runs much of the West today.

And who knows what may happen next year? Marine Le Pen and Frexit maybe.

https://www.the sun/news/2151272/donald-trumps-barnstorming-victory-offers-huge-opportunity-for-brexit-britain-and-theresa-may/

(for some reason, it wouldn't write "The Sun", so have separated the two words, but you know how to open the link).

 

 

Edited November 9, 2016 by Black Monk