May I suggest a project for the board?

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, Lord Harry said:

The problem with cranks is that they don't listen to reason.  Now matter how much evidence and logic they are presented with, it is inevitably dismissed with a wave of the hand.  They also have the tendency to be persistent, they will troll and bait for the purpose of getting a reaction.  Personally, I have always tried to respond to cranks civilly while at the same time tearing down their arguments by present hard scientific, archaeological, historical, and linguistic evidence. 

Though after a while of reading the same tired claims, one's patience does tend to wear thin.

Indeed ... depends on the person ... I tried  to have a 'proper converse' with Claddy for ages ....  the guy scammed, dodged, BS ,, etc , etc etc ... so I went all   'right then mate '   - just my way I suppose . 

We had this guy at aikido training that was SOOOOO annoying ....   imagine a woo nut interfering with everything at  sword training ! Occasionally people would loose it with him - which was a good test as one is not supposed to be 'loosing it ' at all in that scenario . My reaction was to ignore the blabber coming out his mouth and to relentlessly and continually cut  down into the top of his head, so he would be too busy to .....   nope !   Often the instructor would admonish us for not being able to deal with him.

Then one time, he down the end of the line and I heard this tirade against him, someone totally going off at him and screaming  " Shut the **** up ... stop talking rubbish ... empty your mind, just train ... NO!  STOP TALKING ... Look !   I am gonna ....  "

I thought ... jeeze who is that ?  Had a peek and it was the instructor   !      

We all got a limit and we all snap in our own particular way . 

 

[kmt_sesh]

14 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Ridicule - which in some cases takes the form of satire - is a reaction to the perceived inadequacies of some of the theories described here and elsewhere: it's not an attempt to make less well informed readers feel foolish.  One example that springs to mind is the case of the hieroglyphic characters, supposedly carved by the AE themselves, found in Australia.  To explain - keeping a straight face - why this theory cannot be based on fact would take a huge effort (peopling of the Australias; limitations of AE sailing craft; history of the development of AE hieroglyphic characters; etc. etc.)  Ridicule, or satire, is a much more succinct method, more suited to a discussion forum.  In another case also involving AE hieroglyphic characters - an OK 'apr name based on the name of Khufu, found in one of the relieving chambers of the GP - someone on another forum uses satire to illustrate glaring weaknesses in the evidence for the notorious allegations of forgery surrounding this discovery.  Although not educational in itself, it can at least suggest to the less informed reader that the charge might be worth further investigation.  Ann Macy Roth's Egyptian Phyles in the Old Kingdom isn't exactly light reading, and wasn't written for a mass readership: but it does describe the context in which AE labour was organised.  Returning to the earlier point about AE sailing craft, Shelley Wachsmann's Seagoing Ships and Seamanship in the Bronze Age Levant, interesting though it is, requires some effort on the part of its readers.  As Kmt_sesh says, "academic writing can be intimidating and less approachable, but if you work at it, such material will make sense."  The point is that acquiring the knowledge that enables people to grasp the quantity of fact, and the complexities of evidence, takes a long time and a huge amount of effort: but humorous comments in discussion forums can have some value as signposts and pointers.  Whether less well informed readers want to follow these general pointers, investigate subjects more thoroughly, and read more serious work is, in the last analysis, up to them.

Just beautifully said. Wish I could hit "Like this" a few more times.

[kmt_sesh]

13 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

There is a difficulty in that any oddball idea can be said easier and in a more entertaining manner than it is to explain why its wrong. 

 In Kmt's defense, he has his blog and his job where he attempts to inform the public, as well as the threads he mentioned. 

 And personally I find him and entertaining and informative read.  

As to this, sincerely thanks.

Quote

But despite that, he doesn't have much impact...

And as to this...meh, story of my life.

[kmt_sesh]

17 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Yes absolutely and with malice aforethought too. I also on occasion step on puppy tails, say very harsh things about poets modern artists and never make my bed.

I wanna be like you when I grow old. I mean up.

[Lord Harry]

 

4 hours ago, back to earth said:

Indeed ... depends on the person ... I tried  to have a 'proper converse' with Claddy for ages ....  the guy scammed, dodged, BS ,, etc , etc etc ... so I went all   'right then mate '   - just my way I suppose . 

We had this guy at aikido training that was SOOOOO annoying ....   imagine a woo nut interfering with everything at  sword training ! Occasionally people would loose it with him - which was a good test as one is not supposed to be 'loosing it ' at all in that scenario . My reaction was to ignore the blabber coming out his mouth and to relentlessly and continually cut  down into the top of his head, so he would be too busy to .....   nope !   Often the instructor would admonish us for not being able to deal with him.

Then one time, he down the end of the line and I heard this tirade against him, someone totally going off at him and screaming  " Shut the **** up ... stop talking rubbish ... empty your mind, just train ... NO!  STOP TALKING ... Look !   I am gonna ....  "

I thought ... jeeze who is that ?  Had a peek and it was the instructor   !      

We all got a limit and we all snap in our own particular way . 

 

I can guarantee my experiences with our 'camel riding friend' isn't much different from your own.

Edited June 21, 2017 by kmt_sesh
Cleanup in Aisle 155

[kmt_sesh]

14 hours ago, Windowpane said:

...someone on another forum uses satire to illustrate glaring weaknesses in the evidence for the notorious allegations of forgery surrounding this discovery...

I wanted to single this out separately. Thanks for the link to that delightful post. I think I laughed myself silly!

[kmt_sesh]

5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I would also switch the point system... 5 points if an Egyptologist agrees with you, 1 point if someone in another discipline agrees with you.

 

 - picky-pants panther

Kenemet, you just want Hanslune to polish his brilliant list so you can turn it in as a term paper. Right? 

[Hanslune]

6 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I wanna be like you when I grow old. I mean up.

Start small, leave unclean pots in the sink (for weeks) until it properly petrifies.

[Hanslune]

1 minute ago, kmt_sesh said:

Kenemet, you just want Hanslune to polish his brilliant list so you can turn it in as a term paper. Right? 

I think it would be just the thing for a poster outside a stuffy Egyptology conference

[ShadowSot]

40 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

As to this, sincerely thanks.

And as to this...meh, story of my life.

That wasn't a statement against you. 

 Just an observation. History Channel is probably more popular now than when it had more real world history. 

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

That wasn't a statement against you. 

 Just an observation. History Channel is probably more popular now than when it had more real world history. 

Oh, no offense taken. I agree with what you said. The History Channel is a good analogy. My threads are not spiffy and controversial enough. I naively think a solid history discussion will be enjoyed by all, but I think people prefer aliens and levitation (and geysers) and lost civilizations. I try but usually fail, and I'm aware of that. You hit the nail on the head. I think I need to do something to make my threads more "shiny."

How about if I wear a tinfoil hat and exclaim I'm from Zelda 6 in the Buttplug Galaxy? 

[kmt_sesh]

8 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

It doesn't matter if they do or not. This is a public forum ... the point of educating here isn't to change one person's mind ... it's to make the information available to everyone who passes through the room (instead of posting sarcastic, sneering, and snide remarks ... soft core bullying, really). Quite a number of the "experts" here in UM aren't very good role models.

Role models? I think by "experts" you really mean "skeptics," considering not many posters are truly experts in these subjects. I don't consider myself an expert in Egyptology (my greatest interest), but I am a skeptic in general. Just the way I'm built, you might say. But using the status of role model is a bit of a stretch. In saying so, you're essentially assigning some of us with a level of authority that doesn't exist. We're just posters. Okay, I'm a Mod, but I almost always post just as a regular member and step in as a Mod only when there's a problem. I think that's pretty obvious, though.

Other posters among the skeptics have admitted they started out as believers but became more skeptical because they took the time to dig into facts and consult realistic and reliable materials. Speaking for myself, I originally came to UM years ago only to defend the orthodox and academic position.  I'm not here as a teacher, but I hope when I write something about history, I can help people learn what I've learned—simply because I love studying ancient history. And they don't have to believe me, ever. I merely hope that those who read my stuff and might doubt it, will look into it deeper themselves.

As for attitude, everyone can be guilty of that, myself included. Other posters have been here longer than I have but I can't directly speak for them. I can again use myself as an example. I joined UM almost 10 years ago, and in all these years, I've seen the same fringe arguments or slight variations on the theme put on this message board over and over and over. A new poster favoring the fringe likes to think he or she has some new and "history-changing" idea, but isn't aware that the idea has already been declared ad nauseam at UM and all over the internet. Other fringe posters habitually turn to very outdated research, misrepresent research, or present just plainly wrong material. I say all of this because there's a certain degree of frustration for many of us skeptics, so we tend to get snippy and sarcastic. I admit I can be that way, too. But most of us try hard to share reliable facts. Unfortunately, as others have said in this thread, regardless of what we do the average fringe poster will flat-out ignore the facts we present and hold rigidly to their ideas, no matter how easily disproved they are. One should expect us to get snippy when dealing with that.

Okay, I'll climb off my soap box. Someone else can take over.

[kmt_sesh]

3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Start small, leave unclean pots in the sink (for weeks) until it properly petrifies.

Well, I do all of that already. The main difference is my neglected pots don't petrify. They mummify.

[Tatetopa]

On 8/10/2016 at 7:59 PM, Hanslune said:

Good point we would probably need such lists for Peruvian archaeology and other places also. The idea will be to place in easy to use fashion a list of the most common mistakes usually applied to ancient Egypt and the other places as we go along.

I am with you, but I think "mistake" is too mild a term.  I lean toward total misconception, disastrous misdirection,  physical impossibility. an assault on logic and the natural laws. Hazardous while drinking lest you snort hot cocoa up your nose in a fit of incredulity is a little ungainly, but descriptive.

.

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said:

Well, I do all of that already. The main difference is my neglected pots don't petrify. They mummify.

You WISH

[Hanslune]

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I am with you, but I think "mistake" is too mild a term.  I lean toward total misconception, disastrous misdirection,  physical impossibility. an assault on logic and the natural laws. Hazardous while drinking lest you snort hot cocoa up your nose in a fit of incredulity is a little ungainly, but descriptive.

.

True, I think we need  a general one for all archaeology, a south American one/Americas one, then one for Mesopotamia, one would be good for 'biblical stuff but I know little about that, then Europe, Asia/China and India

Americas

Middle east

Europe

East Asia

India

 

Can anyone suggest a different pattern? I thought instead of regions, to use ideas, like 'lost civilizations', early civilization, the ancient world, the new world, etc.

Thoughts

 

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Kenemet, you just want Hanslune to polish his brilliant list so you can turn it in as a term paper. Right? 

Darn!  Caught in the act!

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Darn!  Caught in the act!

Well we could just change the name from The Hanslune-Harte Ultimate Dumb chart or TH2UD to The Hanslune-Kenemet Ultimate Dumb chart or TKUD or perhaps T-Kud or KHUD - does KHUD mean anything in AE?

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

KHUD mean anything in AE?

The sound of one hand smiting.

[Gaden]

20 hours ago, back to earth said:

 

Bit of an exaggeration isnt it ?         Being one myself  !  .....  learnt heaps off the knowledgeable here .... but then again , I wanted to .   ... that   could make a difference .... still here too    

There are WOOBS  whose brains are mentally deficient and beyond reasoning with, and carry on ridiculously  ... and there are people curious, partially educated, interested or might have something valuable to offer .

Lets not mix them all up together  .   

  No, not as far as I know. The subject being referred to was fringe posters, if you show me one thread where someone who posted an 'alternate view ' retracted their statements, I'll change my sentence to "most attempts". 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, Gaden said:

  No, not as far as I know. The subject being referred to was fringe posters, if you show me one thread where someone who posted an 'alternate view ' retracted their statements, I'll change my sentence to "most attempts". 

It does happen on some occasions but is rare and no immediate examples come to mind.

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The sound of one hand smiting.

Does it or are you presenting a 'Cladking' style fact?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Does it or are you presenting a 'Cladking' style fact?

Once you write his name he will appear. Its all your fault Hanslune.  

[Hanslune]

2 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Once you write his name he will appear. Its all your fault Hanslune.  

Fear not he is carefully muzzled elsewhere in the universe trying to figure out why Hawass keeps sneaking into his house and hiding his shorts and cutting words out of his dictionary. Anyway - I'm going camping for a few days so you can deal with it

.......................................scampering away...................away....................away........

[kmt_sesh]

3 hours ago, Gaden said:

  No, not as far as I know. The subject being referred to was fringe posters, if you show me one thread where someone who posted an 'alternate view ' retracted their statements, I'll change my sentence to "most attempts". 

I was sitting here and honestly trying to think of an example where a fringe poster openly admitted their error and retracted their statements. I have to think it's happened before, but an example just doesn't come to mind.

Were it actually to happen, I might be inspired to pin it to the forum index for everyone to see, forever and ever.