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The meaning of Egypt's word for God (NTR)


rakovsky
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It is interesting to see forum users, particularly our moderator kmt sesh familiar with ancient Egyptian history and culture. One of the mysteries for Egyptologists has been the root meaning for the word God in Egyptian, NTR. Ancient Egyptians' ancestors pronounced some letters as K and L where Egyptians came to pronounce T and R. So when considering the possible root meanings, one should also be open to taking into account words with consonant series like NKL and not only NTR. Other Afro-Asiatic languages are a good place to start. I searched through possible root words in Semitic, Cush-ite, Berber, and Chadic languages and concluded that it most likely has its root meaning as enlivened, Animated One, jumping, startled, wonderful, marvelous, rising up, moving, shaking, etc. I listed the meanings in my document here http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=18189796509680718524

However, scholars I found tend to take a different view, and consider that NTR's root meaning is "strange", "foreign" "unknown". For this they can point to the Arabic word Nakira, which means unrecognized or "he was ignorant of", and to the Islamic "Nakir":

Munkar and Nakir (Arabic: منكر و نكير‎‎) (English translation: "The Denied and The Denier")  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munkar_and_Nakir

See also: Dictionary of the Hausa Language, Volume 1, By Charles Henry Robinson: “Nakir, an angel whose office, according to Mohammaden belief is to try the dead in their graves”
In Hebrew, we can find the same root word:

 

Quote

Nakar;

naw-kar' - a primitive root; properly, to scrutinize, i.e. look intently at; hence (with recognition implied), to acknowledge, be acquainted with, care for, respect, revere, or (with suspicion implied), to disregard, ignore, be strange toward, reject, resign, dissimulate (as if ignorant or disowning):--acknowledge, X could, deliver, discern, dissemble, estrange, feign self to be another, know, take knowledge (notice), perceive, regard, (have) respect, behave (make) self strange(-ly).

Nekar - foreign, or (concretely) a foreigner, or (abstractly) heathendom:--alien, strange (+ -er).

Neker  neh'-ker or noker {no'-ker}; something strange, i.e. unexpected calamity:--strange.[/quote]

SOURCE: Strong's Hebrew Dictionary

 

In the Ethiopian language of Gecez we see:

Nakir: strange, foreign, stranger, alien, other, different, .... wonder, marvelous (Source: Concise Dictionary of Gecez)

 

In support of this theory, see:

The Vocalization of the Egyptian Syllabic Orthography; William Foxwell Albright - 1934

Calice, Franz 1936 Grundlagen der dgyptisch-semitischen Wortvergleichung (Wien: Orientalisches Institut der Universitat)

1947, Marcel Cohen: Essai comparatif sur le vocabulaire

 

So what do you think the most likely root meaning is of NTR/god in Egyptian?

Edited by rakovsky
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I am VERY curious as to how you know how     'ancient Egyptian ancestors'      pronounced things !  

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.... but I will go for the 2nd  meaning in the  thread  sub-title  .... sounds a bit like some type of 'shimmering chromoscintillating  ibis'   ;)

 

Maybe the Hadida Ibis ? 

 

AZ_HadedaIbis02.jpg

Edited by back to earth
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Of course Ther is also:

 

nacked: also spelt knackered, meaning "broken" or "exhausted", and derived from the process used to create a gelded horse.

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....  ' resplendent '   ...... that was the word I was thinking of .

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·

In my own research I've not encountered Egyptological linguistic analysis suggesting these exact sound shifts for the consonantal skeleton of the ancient Egyptian nTr ("netcher"). While consonants can and surely do change in living languages, sound shifts are much more common with vowels. We do see this in ancient Egyptian with terminating weak consonants, which are difficult to explain but kind of cross the boundary between consonant and vowel (such as our letter "y" in English); ancient Egyptian had a number of weak consonants, and analysis of termninating weak consonants shows they entirely dropped off many words as the centuries went by. They're more so preserved in hieroglyphs, which ceased to represent the daily spoken tongue even in the Old Kingdom, but their absence are evident in the cursive scripts that preserved the daily spoken tongue (first hieratic, and much later demotic).

Okay, so I'm digressing into lecture mode. In their book Gods and Men in Ancient Egypt, Dunand and Zivie-Coche have an excellent section on the ancient Egyptian word and concept nTr. Numerous scholars have tried to nail down the origins and etymology of the word but there is no consensus on how it came to be in the ancient language. However, how it sounded does not seem to have changed much. We cannot know the vowel sounds in nTr as they would've been 5,000 or 3,000 or 2,000 years ago, because only the three consonants are certain. However, in Coptic, the last remnant of the ancient Egyptian tongue, the word is pronounced as noute, so even in such a late stage of history the word had not changed much (it would appear the final "r" had dropped off by the onset of Christianity).

As with complicated religious terms in any language, nTr in ancient Egyptian has a wider range of meanings than many people realize. It certainly could be used to mean "god," while nTrt with the feminine t-ending would mean goddess"; nTrw and nTrwt would be their plurals, respectively. But if you work with hieroglyphic inscriptions you will see how fluid and even inconsistent the usage is. The singular nTr could refer to a specific god or the gods in general, and could imply plurality on its own. And of course the term represented a wide and complicated range of meanings for the concept of "divine," as for the gods themselves, or for a king in life and death, or for private commoners in death (deceased people collectively were often called nTrw, "divine ones").

I'll shut up now, except to caution against one thing fringe writers often state: that nTr is the origin for our word "nature." That's an example straight from Lego linguistics, where there must be a correlation between two words that kinda-sorta sound alike. I tack this on only because it's an example of incorrect thinking, and it kind of bothers me.

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But why an axe , or axe head *  ....  specifically  (perhaps ) a war axe ?

I am beginning to suspect , that what the Egyptians referred to as  NTR  may be far removed from what we consider as God / Gods . 

 

 

*  http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/god_ntr.htm

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56 minutes ago, atalante said:

Letters L and R are "liquid consonants".  Thus L and R sometimes interchange when words shift from one language to another. 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/liquid-phonetics

Thus you might want to look for consonants NTL in other languages.  

 

And maybe the "T" is actuslly pronounced "ch".

and the "n" was a misheard "m".

Making the gods of Egypt "Munchers".

And Osris came back from the dead.... 

Undead munchers? OMFG the gods of Egypt were zombies! ZOMBIE GODS!

Thats why no one knows who built the pyramids, the Egyptian Gods ATE THEM ALL!!!

 

 

THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING SHEEPLE!

Thats why no one worships the old gods anymore, the Egpytian gods ATE THE OLD GODS.

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·
5 hours ago, atalante said:

Letters L and R are "liquid consonants".  Thus L and R sometimes interchange when words shift from one language to another. 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/liquid-phonetics

Thus you might want to look for consonants NTL in other languages.  

 

It's important to note (and I left this out earlier) there is a belief that in most dialects of ancient Egyptian, there wasn't even a letter "L." We can see this in their hieroglyphic spelling when they rendered the names of foreigners. The "L" was represented by a couple of different hieroglyphs that in the native Egyptian language were definitely not an "L". The most common were the mouth glyph (the monoliteral r) and the recumbent-lion glyph (the biliteral rw). It seems clear their "R" when voiced bore a similarity to the "L" sound, so they experimented to approximate it.

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·
4 hours ago, back to earth said:

But why an axe , or axe head *  ....  specifically  (perhaps ) a war axe ?

I am beginning to suspect , that what the Egyptians referred to as  NTR  may be far removed from what we consider as God / Gods . 

 

 

*  http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/god_ntr.htm

In early scholarship it was posited that the nTr glyph represented an axe, but that is no longer accepted. In fact it's a pole with a banner, such as you would see outside the entrances to their temples and shrines throughout their entire history. A flag, in other words. One might think of it as an object representing that you were in the presence of the divine.

Or in the presence of Harte. I can never remember which it is.

4 hours ago, Lord Fedorable said:

And maybe the "T" is actuslly pronounced "ch".

and the "n" was a misheard "m".

Making the gods of Egypt "Munchers".

And Osris came back from the dead.... 

Undead munchers? OMFG the gods of Egypt were zombies! ZOMBIE GODS!

Thats why no one knows who built the pyramids, the Egyptian Gods ATE THEM ALL!!!

 

 

THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING SHEEPLE!

Thats why no one worships the old gods anymore, the Egpytian gods ATE THE OLD GODS.

Zombie gods! By Jove, man, you've done it!

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On 8/20/2016 at 5:18 PM, back to earth said:

I am VERY curious as to how you know how     'ancient Egyptian ancestors'      pronounced things !  

Hello, Earth.

One reason Egyptologists believe this is because they study the relationship between ancient Egyptian and the larger Afro-Asiatic family to see what consonant changes have taken place. So for example, David Mcann wrote me about the ancient Egyptian T:

 I invite you to download my notes where I cite a well-known Egyptologist who discusses this as well as referring to published articles on it.

http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=00819973977517093800

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On 8/20/2016 at 10:27 PM, kmt_sesh said:

In my own research I've not encountered Egyptological linguistic analysis suggesting these exact sound shifts for the consonantal skeleton of the ancient Egyptian nTr ("netcher").

Thomas Schneider wrote in the Egyptology Online Forum:

  • Of crucial importance - also with regard to other etymological attempts mentioned on the EEF list - is the phonological reality behind nTr around ca. 3000 BC. Whereas <T> was clearly a palatalized variant of /k/ at the time (cf. the variants kbw/Tbw "sandals", kSM/Tsm "hound" in the OK etc.), it should be noted that <r> did only represent an r-sound from the Late Middle Kingdom onwards; earlier it clearly was a variety of /l/ (for a more general embedding of this, cf. my articles in Lingua Aegyptia 5(1997), 189-209 and 11(2003), 187-199). Otto Rössler proposed to link the term to the Arabic root nkl "to deter", whereas I myself suggested, in the SEAP article, a relation to Berber (Touareg) amenukal "king", derived from a (lost) root *nkl.

The problem with Schneider's strategy of focusing on NKL in other languages is that even if he is right, those other languages could have shifted their Ls to Rs too - not just the Egyptians.

Anyway, in Amharic I found: nekul - giddy, tottering, staggering. I think this is related to my theory that NTR is related to the concept of shaking, trembling, agitation.

 

 

Quote

 

Okay, so I'm digressing into lecture mode. In their book Gods and Men in Ancient Egypt, Dunand and Zivie-Coche have an excellent section on the ancient Egyptian word and concept nTr.

Thanks I added this to the notes.

Quote

Numerous scholars have tried to nail down the origins and etymology of the word but there is no consensus on how it came to be in the ancient language. However, how it sounded does not seem to have changed much. We cannot know the vowel sounds in nTr as they would've been 5,000 or 3,000 or 2,000 years ago, because only the three consonants are certain. However, in Coptic, the last remnant of the ancient Egyptian tongue, the word is pronounced as noute, so even in such a late stage of history the word had not changed much (it would appear the final "r" had dropped off by the onset of Christianity).

As with complicated religious terms in any language, nTr in ancient Egyptian has a wider range of meanings than many people realize. It certainly could be used to mean "god," while nTrt with the feminine t-ending would mean goddess"; nTrw and nTrwt would be their plurals, respectively. But if you work with hieroglyphic inscriptions you will see how fluid and even inconsistent the usage is. The singular nTr could refer to a specific god or the gods in general, and could imply plurality on its own. And of course the term represented a wide and complicated range of meanings for the concept of "divine," as for the gods themselves, or for a king in life and death, or for private commoners in death (deceased people collectively were often called nTrw, "divine ones").

Yes.

Quote

I'll shut up now, except to caution against one thing fringe writers often state: that nTr is the origin for our word "nature." That's an example straight from Lego linguistics, where there must be a correlation between two words that kinda-sorta sound alike. I tack this on only because it's an example of incorrect thinking, and it kind of bothers me.

With so little and such weak traces to go on, I don't want to dismiss connections out of hand because they sound weak, even one as weak (and for you annoying) as what you mentioned. Let's change the topic just a bit. Consider the word Natron. This word in Latin is Nitrium I think. In Hebrew it's Nether and in Arabic Natrun/Natron. In Egypt it was NTR and in Amharic Natran. I think that in the case of Latin it's not a coincidence that the chemical kinda sorta bears the same name, even though it's a whole different language family.

Now let's go for a weaker connection than Nitrium/NTR - the connection of the Greek word Nektar. Do you think that this word could be at all related to Natron (NTR)? On the surface, NO! It is from Nek + Ter . Nek means death and Ter means crossing in Indo-European roots. So Greek Nektar means crossing over death and has nothing to do with Natron !!!1!!!111!!! https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nectar

And yet if we put aside our rejection for a moment and look closer, something curious appears:

Quote

What food do the Gods of Olympus eat in Greek mythology?

nectar and ambrosia were known to imbue longevity or even immortality upon the consumer. They were the mediums of eternal life. In truth, nectar and ambrosia were really one consumed by the gods, and when mortals received it it was at the hands of the gods. One great scene in the Illiad shows Thetis filling Patroclus’s nostrils with nectar as a way to transform him with strength and life (19.38–49). Curiously enough, this scene has led a few scholars to suggest that the Greek nektar descended from the Egyptian natron, or salt substance inserted through the nostrils and into the body as a way to preserve eternal life in the Egyptian tradition.

Supporting this idea is the fact that when Greeks opened their barrels of wine the liquor had to be consumed or it would spoil (no corks had been invented). There was a way, however, to prolong the life of the opened wine, and that was by salting it. Wine, seen as a substance of transformation given mortals by the gods, was itself given life by natron or salts which preserved the wine from turning into vinegar.
http://cosmosandlogos.com/?p=756

So then this raises the question of whether the substances of Greek Nektar and Egyptian NTR are related after all. On the surface, they are not and these words are totally unrelated linguistically. They have totally different roots - Nek + Tar vs. NKL (or whatever the African origin was). Granted, the Egyptians in the Old Kingdom were still transitioning their Ts and Ks, but the roots of Nektar and NTR/NKR are still in different languages. And so to someone who classifies languages strictly and sees overlap as next to impossible, such questions are impossible too.

But for me, such questions are not excluded. It really could be that Greeks heard the word "NTR" or "NKR" and reformulated it in their own language based on their own linguistics. So they interpreted NKR, whatever the original roots in African languages, in terms of their Greek language. And so for the Greeks, the Egyptian substance that sounded like Nekr or Netr became in Greek Nek+tar or Nektar, a substance for crossing over into the afterlife. (Unless someone thinks the whole PIE etymology is mistaken and Nektar is a pure borrowing from Egyptian NTR/NKR).

So either a. it's a coincidence that Nektar and the substance NTR seem to have a parallel meaning and similar sounds, or else b. the words Nektar and NTR themselves are related and one was intentionally invented based on the other. Personally I think the latter possibility is more likely, but it's not super-important for me to prove.

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On 8/21/2016 at 5:22 PM, back to earth said:

But why an axe , or axe head *  ....  specifically  (perhaps ) a war axe ?

I am beginning to suspect , that what the Egyptians referred to as  NTR  may be far removed from what we consider as God / Gods . 

 

 

*  http://www.kaa-umati.co.uk/god_ntr.htm

First of all, we would want to make sure that it was an axe head and not a flag before we draw such conclusions. I think a flag is more likely because we know that they used flags outside their temples. The Israelites used Asherah poles and the Hindus show gods' presence with jhandhi flags.

Second, if it is an axe, consider that the main creator God for Mempgis (eg. Giza) is Ptah, whose name means the opener/carver. He fashioned the world, and the word for this was opening/carving. The axe was also, according to Budge, a symbol of power and of a chieftain. And then we can look to major gods in the European, Hindu, and Chinese pantheons that carry axes to see how this is conceivable.

But anyway, I think it's more likely that temple flag was the original intent, rather than an axe. The word for a temple was God's house, shown with a flag/axe and square, the latter for the building. And in fact the flag matches well the visual setup in real life with the flag outside the temple.

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On 8/21/2016 at 10:36 PM, kmt_sesh said:

In early scholarship it was posited that the nTr glyph represented an axe, but that is no longer accepted.

Can you say more about that?

I will be interested to hear your opinion on my notes,

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20 hours ago, rakovsky said:

First of all, we would want to make sure that it was an axe head and not a flag before we draw such conclusions. I think a flag is more likely because we know that they used flags outside their temples. The Israelites used Asherah poles and the Hindus show gods' presence with jhandhi flags.

Second, if it is an axe, consider that the main creator God for Mempgis (eg. Giza) is Ptah, whose name means the opener/carver. He fashioned the world, and the word for this was opening/carving. The axe was also, according to Budge, a symbol of power and of a chieftain. And then we can look to major gods in the European, Hindu, and Chinese pantheons that carry axes to see how this is conceivable.

But anyway, I think it's more likely that temple flag was the original intent, rather than an axe. The word for a temple was God's house, shown with a flag/axe and square, the latter for the building. And in fact the flag matches well the visual setup in real life with the flag outside the temple.

 

Great answer - thanks . 

< ! >   Now  I wonder if it could be symbol for both  , to encompass both meanings  ?

For some reason I thought Ptah was  considered a 'potter'   ?  

-  But then again ;  "  Ptah is the creator of all crafts and trades " -  'Shebaka Stone' .     my emphasis )

 

 

 

 

 

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Okay, you got me interested in the Jhandi flag, as I wondered where the Indian's got the concept. As I  think more of their influences came from the old Aryan 'Empire/s' than from Egypt.  I found this '

The Saffron flag of the Maratha Empire. It is known as Zhenda in Marathi, and Jhandi झन्डी(Hindi), Dhwaj ध्वज, Bhagwa-Dhwaj भग्व ध्वज or Kesri केसरी. It has been passed down from various empires since pre-Vedic eras. There are two version of the saffron flag. The single pennant flag hoisted on temples in northern India and two pennants flag, represented the Maratha Empire.  (my emphasis)

Obviously you are referring to the temple one. I wonder if I can find its origin ?

 

.....  I'll  be back  .  

 

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...  

in the age of Kali Lord Vishnu took the form of Lord Jagannath devoid of limbs and was seated like a small pole like structure.

Lord Sudarshan became elated and proud for his power in the age of Kali. Lord Vishnu could know the pride of Lord Sudarshan and sent him to call Hanuman... Hanuman started for the meeting with Lord Jagannath at Srimandir... There was some altercation between Lord Sudarshan and Hanuman.... Lord Sudarshan out-paced Hanuman and to bar the entry of Hanuman to Srimandir moved with tremendous speed and guarded the four entrances of Srimandir.... Hanuman then prayed the Lord and energized himself with tremendous power, became eight-handed and held the great King of Chakras at the four entrances of Sri Mandir in fingertips of the four created hands. He then folded two of his hands as a token of respect to Lord Jagannath ... and then proceeded to have the darshan of Lord Jagannath.

Realizing the futility of the pride in the presence of Hanuman, the great devotee, Lord Sudarshan came to the Lord. As a punishment for the pride Lord Sudarshan was cursed to hide all the power and sit as a pole-like structure in the left side of Lord Jagannath. Lord Sudarshan prayed Lord Jagnnath who was gracious With his weapon the king of the chakras. He told Lord Sudarshan in the age of Kali, the king of wheels will adorn the spire of Sri Mandir as Nila Chakra. A darshan if Nila Chakra will be equivalent to the darshan at the Lord's.

 

...  but that is just that specific temple 

 

Aha !  ;

 

Nepal Sutras, originally written on cloth banners, were transmitted to other regions of the world as prayer flags.[3] Legend ascribes the origin of the prayer flag to the Gautama Buddha, whose prayers were written on battle flags used by the devas against their adversaries, the asuras."

 

As I thought, the battle that split the  'Aryan Empire' (or at least an alliance )  - 'The Great War of Religion'  that the latter divisions of 'Avestan Persians' ( Asuras )  and 'Vedic Indians' caused. 

 

Related image

 

I would say, to identify their alliance. The way they do today, to identify which particular temple it is (which God's)  with added symbols of protection for the temple on it 

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I just scanned Fedowsi's Shahmenah and all references to flags I saw related to this battle, but in this case, on the 'Ahura side '  (not the Devas) . 

 

So not the actual presence of God generally, but more of a 'religio-political' alliance.... since it was a religious war (well, everything seemed religious then ) .  

Interestingly enough, in this context ,  flag and war axe (or sword) seem to go 'and in hand' . 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

 

Great answer - thanks . 

< ! >   Now  I wonder if it could be symbol for both  , to encompass both meanings  ?

For some reason I thought Ptah was  considered a 'potter'   ?  

-  But then again ;  "  Ptah is the creator of all crafts and trades " -  'Shebaka Stone' .     my emphasis )

kmt_sesh said in message 11 that the idea of it being an axe has been rejected. I am interested in what reasons were given for rejecting that idea, since theoretically I suppose a sign mean more than one thing (eg axe and flag)

 

I think Ptah has sometimes been shown as a potter like you said. I think that just the normal meaning of Ptah is opener, fashioner, carver. A fashioner could include the idea of a carver.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

Okay, you got me interested in the Jhandi flag, as I wondered where the Indian's got the concept. As I  think more of their influences came from the old Aryan 'Empire/s' than from Egypt.  I found this '

The Saffron flag of the Maratha Empire. It is known as Zhenda in Marathi, and Jhandi झन्डी(Hindi), Dhwaj ध्वज, Bhagwa-Dhwaj भग्व ध्वज or Kesri केसरी. It has been passed down from various empires since pre-Vedic eras. There are two version of the saffron flag. The single pennant flag hoisted on temples in northern India and two pennants flag, represented the Maratha Empire.  (my emphasis)

Obviously you are referring to the temple one. I wonder if I can find its origin ?

 

.....  I'll  be back  .  

 

Yes I hope you can find the origin you mentioned.

 

I think it's like the Asheroh poles in Israel and the NTR flags in Egypt. Same concept.

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

...  

in the age of Kali Lord Vishnu took the form of Lord Jagannath devoid of limbs and was seated like a small pole like structure.

Lord Sudarshan became elated and proud for his power in the age of Kali. Lord Vishnu could know the pride of Lord Sudarshan and sent him to call Hanuman... Hanuman started for the meeting with Lord Jagannath at Srimandir... There was some altercation between Lord Sudarshan and Hanuman.... Lord Sudarshan out-paced Hanuman and to bar the entry of Hanuman to Srimandir moved with tremendous speed and guarded the four entrances of Srimandir.... Hanuman then prayed the Lord and energized himself with tremendous power, became eight-handed and held the great King of Chakras at the four entrances of Sri Mandir in fingertips of the four created hands. He then folded two of his hands as a token of respect to Lord Jagannath ... and then proceeded to have the darshan of Lord Jagannath.

Realizing the futility of the pride in the presence of Hanuman, the great devotee, Lord Sudarshan came to the Lord. As a punishment for the pride Lord Sudarshan was cursed to hide all the power and sit as a pole-like structure in the left side of Lord Jagannath. Lord Sudarshan prayed Lord Jagnnath who was gracious With his weapon the king of the chakras. He told Lord Sudarshan in the age of Kali, the king of wheels will adorn the spire of Sri Mandir as Nila Chakra. A darshan if Nila Chakra will be equivalent to the darshan at the Lord's.

 

...  but that is just that specific temple 

 

Aha !  ;

 

Nepal Sutras, originally written on cloth banners, were transmitted to other regions of the world as prayer flags.[3] Legend ascribes the origin of the prayer flag to the Gautama Buddha, whose prayers were written on battle flags used by the devas against their adversaries, the asuras."

 

As I thought, the battle that split the  'Aryan Empire' (or at least an alliance )  - 'The Great War of Religion'  that the latter divisions of 'Avestan Persians' ( Asuras )  and 'Vedic Indians' caused. 

 

Related image

 

I would say, to identify their alliance. The way they do today, to identify which particular temple it is (which God's)  with added symbols of protection for the temple on it 

I agree more with your last quote than this one - I think it's pre-vedic.Probably very old concept and a cross cultural one.

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1 hour ago, back to earth said:

...  

in the age of Kali Lord Vishnu took the form of Lord Jagannath devoid of limbs and was seated like a small pole like structure.

Lord Sudarshan became elated and proud for his power in the age of Kali. Lord Vishnu could know the pride of Lord Sudarshan and sent him to call Hanuman... Hanuman started for the meeting with Lord Jagannath at Srimandir... There was some altercation between Lord Sudarshan and Hanuman.... Lord Sudarshan out-paced Hanuman and to bar the entry of Hanuman to Srimandir moved with tremendous speed and guarded the four entrances of Srimandir.... Hanuman then prayed the Lord and energized himself with tremendous power, became eight-handed and held the great King of Chakras at the four entrances of Sri Mandir in fingertips of the four created hands. He then folded two of his hands as a token of respect to Lord Jagannath ... and then proceeded to have the darshan of Lord Jagannath.

Realizing the futility of the pride in the presence of Hanuman, the great devotee, Lord Sudarshan came to the Lord. As a punishment for the pride Lord Sudarshan was cursed to hide all the power and sit as a pole-like structure in the left side of Lord Jagannath. Lord Sudarshan prayed Lord Jagnnath who was gracious With his weapon the king of the chakras. He told Lord Sudarshan in the age of Kali, the king of wheels will adorn the spire of Sri Mandir as Nila Chakra. A darshan if Nila Chakra will be equivalent to the darshan at the Lord's.

 

...  but that is just that specific temple 

 

Aha !  ;

 

Nepal Sutras, originally written on cloth banners, were transmitted to other regions of the world as prayer flags.[3] Legend ascribes the origin of the prayer flag to the Gautama Buddha, whose prayers were written on battle flags used by the devas against their adversaries, the asuras."

 

As I thought, the battle that split the  'Aryan Empire' (or at least an alliance )  - 'The Great War of Religion'  that the latter divisions of 'Avestan Persians' ( Asuras )  and 'Vedic Indians' caused. 

 

Related image

 

I would say, to identify their alliance. The way they do today, to identify which particular temple it is (which God's)  with added symbols of protection for the temple on it 

Egyptian mythology feels so much simpler than Hindu ones.

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The Ancient Near East Blog has a section on NTR. It's interesting:

header_ani_scales.jpg

The writer does not reject the idea of a connection between Natron and NTR, but doesn't find it compelling either. He writes:

Also sometimes suggested is that the word “natron” comes from

nTr. This has been argued for ages in academic circles but no convincing linguistic evidence has ever been posited to corroborate the argument (Hornung 1971: 41). There is an Egyptian word ntryt that exists in one fragmentary source that has been posited as “natron,” but even here the evidence is not compelling (Faulkner 1962: 143).

https://ancientneareast.org/tag/netjer/

Two things that I would mention to the author are that:

1. In the semitic languages of Amharic, Hebrew, and Arabic, Natron carries the same root. In Hebrew it is Nether, which especially brings to mind the Egyptian word NTR.

2. One hieroglyphic symbol for Natron the substance is the NTR flag standing in a bag. A linen bag was a means to carry Natron and such bags have been found in archaeology in Egypt like in King Tut's tomb.

The website writer made an interesting observation (for me):

" It is an exaggeration to suggest that all Egyptian kings were regarded as gods, but these kings were certainly viewed as someone much closer to the gods than ordinary people were. "

That sounds very realistic, and it's an interesting claim, although I usually have heard that they were embodiments of Horus , considered as such by Egyptians.

 

 

 

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·
3 minutes ago, rakovsky said:

The Ancient Near East Blog has a section on NTR. It's interesting:

header_ani_scales.jpg

The writer does not reject the idea of a connection between Natron and NTR, but doesn't find it compelling either. He writes:

 

 

https://ancientneareast.org/tag/netjer/

Two things that I would mention to the author are that:

1. In the semitic languages of Amharic, Hebrew, and Arabic, Natron carries the same root. In Hebrew it is Nether, which especially brings to mind the Egyptian word NTR.

2. One hieroglyphic symbol for Natron the substance is the NTR flag standing in a bag. A linen bag was a means to carry Natron and such bags have been found in archaeology in Egypt like in King Tut's tomb.

The website writer made an interesting observation (for me):

" It is an exaggeration to suggest that all Egyptian kings were regarded as gods, but these kings were certainly viewed as someone much closer to the gods than ordinary people were. "

That sounds very realistic, and it's an interesting claim, although I usually have heard that they were embodiments of Horus , considered as such by Egyptians.

 

 

 

That's my blog. I'm glad you found something useful on it.

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