Prayer vs Human Freewill

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That's the problem. You're ignoring where it came from. To do what you will, is to accept full responsibility for your actions. Be they good or ill. 

The gold and silver rule is about doing what you will as well. It's all about choice and responsibility.

You don't need God nor religion in order to make a choice. But you can justify a whole lot of evil for the sake of faith and the 'holy' word.

 

 If your  (generic you) morality is not based on values driven by philosophical/spiritual beliefs,  then where do you get it from?  in other words, what are the underlying beliefs about life, humanity, self  and others, which inform your ethics and moralities? These are inevitably belief based, .and are "articles of faith", to you.   All human ethics and morality are belief based constructs, and form your personal "religious" or spiritual beliefs.

For example.

Do no harm  

Why/why not?

Any answer will be belief based, and disclose your "religious/spiritual understandings and beliefs. 

[An Urban Leg3nd]

35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 If your  (generic you) morality is not based on values driven by philosophical/spiritual beliefs,  then where do you get it from?  in other words, what are the underlying beliefs about life, humanity, self  and others, which inform your ethics and moralities? These are inevitably belief based, .and are "articles of faith", to you.   All human ethics and morality are belief based constructs, and form your personal "religious" or spiritual beliefs.

For example.

Do no harm  

Why/why not?

Any answer will be belief based, and disclose your "religious/spiritual understandings and beliefs. 

 

Actually, morality doesn't have to come from religious beliefs at all. There are many atheist people in this world who are far more "moral" than their Christian counterparts. Morality may have roots within religion but it doesn't come from religion. Morality is something that was instilled in you since you were a child, religion wasn't. Morality differs from person to person, though. You learn as you go along, that's what forms and shapes each person's morality. Do not harm. Why or why not? You don't go around choosing to harm people because of the consequences of doing so. Good behavior is favorable, bad behavior is not favorable, ...this is how our society was created from the bottom up. We didn't start off as morally perfect beings at all, but we are changing for the better as our society evolves forward. Atheism was here first,...religion wasn't. Religion had to be taught, but you were Atheist before you were indoctrinated by religion. You didn't even know it either. Morality changes from person to person as we learn about the consequences of our actions in relations to the people around us as we get older. You either get wisers or some people remain a fools.

[+Liquid Gardens]

7 hours ago, An Urban Leg3nd said:

Actually, morality doesn't have to come from religious beliefs at all. There are many atheist people in this world who are far more "moral" than their Christian counterparts. Morality may have roots within religion but it doesn't come from religion. 

Agreed, and I don't think it's any coincidence either that a lot of what most people agree on as far as morality just happen to be rules that are necessary in order for civilization.  If you allow people to steal and harm each other, I'm not sure it's possible to have a functioning society.  If people feel better if they think those rules reflect the opinion of the supreme being that's fine, but it's entirely optional.

[Mr Walker]

9 hours ago, An Urban Leg3nd said:

Actually, morality doesn't have to come from religious beliefs at all. There are many atheist people in this world who are far more "moral" than their Christian counterparts. Morality may have roots within religion but it doesn't come from religion. Morality is something that was instilled in you since you were a child, religion wasn't. Morality differs from person to person, though. You learn as you go along, that's what forms and shapes each person's morality. Do not harm. Why or why not? You don't go around choosing to harm people because of the consequences of doing so. Good behavior is favorable, bad behavior is not favorable, ...this is how our society was created from the bottom up. We didn't start off as morally perfect beings at all, but we are changing for the better as our society evolves forward. Atheism was here first,...religion wasn't. Religion had to be taught, but you were Atheist before you were indoctrinated by religion. You didn't even know it either. Morality changes from person to person as we learn about the consequences of our actions in relations to the people around us as we get older. You either get wisers or some people remain a fools.

You have totally misunderstood my point  Ethics and moralities are value and belief based  if you  hold values and beliefs on which values are based, then you have a religious or at least a spiritual /belief base for  your morality. Thus ALL human moriality is constructed from the basis of beliefs (if you don't want to think of those beliefs as spiritual or religious in nature i can accept that reluctance)

For  for example WHY is it wrong to kill another person  The answer will involve values based on  beliefs about the nature of humanity  etc which also form the basis of religious beliefs.

There  is no argument that people who make a stong claim to being atheists cant have a good strong ethicla and moral value system But it WILL be belief based  and often on beliefs also held by religious people. For example an atheist will hold the same reason why it is wrong to steal as a religious person  and they will be based on the same beliefs about property individual rights etc.  Basically, to use one example,the argument of both a religious person and an atheist might go

 "where property is a result of individual labour, a thief steals your time when he steals your property.  Why is time valuable? Because it is a finite and irreplaceable limited resource. and so on  Thus a thief is stealing something which cannot be replaced unless the object stolen is replaced.  You can go deeper and examine WHY  we think of time and property as we do and when it is appropriate to surrender our possessions to another in greater need. Again your responses will depend on basic inner beliefs and values If you see your self as more important than another you might see believe you have a greater right to your property than any other person and hence a right to defend your possession of it. .

 Religions tend to formalise and codify values, beliefs, and hence laws based on them, into something simple like "thou shalt not stel or kill unlawfully.". But every individual has to have a personal belief based value system to operate by.. Atheism was NOT here first. The first self aware human beings had that sense of awareness which caused them to be spiritual or religious  You cant have one capability without the other ( in terms of human cognition) So we see evidence of spiritual beliefs and practices in neandertals and cromagnons although a t a quite basic level.

  Even so no other animal has yet evolved those belief based practices, like ceremonial burial of the dead or creating a fertility figurine. .  Every human group after those earliest ones demonstrated belief based practices of a spiritual religious nature, so i cant find any evidence that early  humans were ever basically atheist. Atheism is probably a late comer in evolutionary terms  because it requires; much greater sophistication of thought, much more knowledge, and a much wider data base for atheism to develop in humans.

 Apes are not atheists as they don't have the abilty to consciously form an opinion on the existence of gods.  Atheism e and theism can only exist in beings with the abilty to choose one over the other. . otherwise you might argue that a rock or a flower is an atheist.  And No, all very small children develop intrinsic  theistic beliefs about things known as agents and have to be educated, through knowledge and understanding into atheism. It is acknowledged that this ealry conditioning by our own minds creates a strong disposition in adult humans to belief, and accounts for the fact tha t over 80% of all modern humans retain a belief in some form of theism or spiritual existence.   Apart from "deconditioning" a child which is quite difficult, all adults can do is influence the particular shape of a child's belief ie instil a particular religious form over their innate belief in gods.

Think about it. How does a one year old make sense of the world around themselves, without developing a belief in magical agents which cause things to happen ? This occurs even before a child can speak and learn religious concepts from its parent's words.

[Davros of Skaro]

On 8/29/2016 at 4:06 PM, SSilhouette said:

Instead of posting substantive-less demeaning post, why not offer up some points to debate instead?

Would you want a thief prowling your neighborhood at night, while you are asleep, with no law enforcement around, to otherwise have had a good exposure to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?  Or would you rather he have the philosophy of "do as thou whilst shall be the whole of the law"?  Morality is around so that all of us can relax more and trust more.  You would not want to live in a world filled with people who only believe in "do as thou whilst..."  Trust me.  And even you would admit that with truth serum.

I always find it funny when people who are on the receiving end of "do as thous whilst" suddenly want to suggest that a little bit of the Golden Rule might be a good thing. 

I just make sure to have my guns handy. It does not matter if an individual is exposed to the morals of religious dogma, or not. If an individual thinks it's a good idea to steal, then my gun in their face will make them actually think.

Here's a question for you to dodge:

This is a breed of cat (artificial selection) called a Ragdoll.

This is a breed of cat (natural selection) called an African Wildcat.

Even if you raised both cats from kittens. Which one would you feel safe to have around a child?