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supervike

Trumps Tax Returns.

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third_eye

Honestly ... I don't think Trump himself believed that he'd still be in the running at this stage of the race when he began his little misadventure ... as many Political analysts suspected initially at the very beginning ...

~ such a strange world the reality of Politics has become ...

Edited by third_eye
its that time of the morning ...
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GlitterRose
2 minutes ago, third_eye said:

Honestly ... I don't think Trump himself believed that he'd still be in the running at this stage of the race when he began his little misadventure ... as many Political analysts suspected initially at the very beginning ...

~ such a strange world the reality of Politics has become ...

 

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Claire.
1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

So I guess it is official, Trump has paid 0% federal income taxes.  His aides are apparently spinning it as him being a "genius" and thus the best to reform the tax system.  They are mad that someone leaked three pages of his 1995 tax report though. http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37533263

You appear to have missed my post earlier in this discussion where I cited the NYT article about his 1995 report. It noted that although Trump paid little to nothing in the way of federal income tax, he has nevertheless "paid hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes, sales and excise taxes, real estate taxes, city taxes, state taxes, employee taxes and federal taxes, along with very substantial charitable contributions." So in fairness to him, it's not like he's avoided paying taxes altogether.

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Gromdor

 

2 minutes ago, Clair said:

You appear to have missed my post earlier in this discussion where I cited the NYT article about his 1995 report. It noted that although Trump paid little to nothing in the way of federal income tax, he has nevertheless "paid hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes, sales and excise taxes, real estate taxes, city taxes, state taxes, employee taxes and federal taxes, along with very substantial charitable contributions." So in fairness to him, it's not like he's avoided paying taxes altogether.

He has paid or his corporations have paid?  The reason why he can claim that he hasn't had bankruptcies was because his corporations are separate from himself. 

Even illegal aliens pay most of the taxes you listed, yet they are considered a drain because they are usually "under the table" and pay no federal income tax.

It's true that he is not avoiding paying all taxes, but he is avoiding paying the one that costs middle class America 20-30% of their income.

 

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Likely Guy
19 minutes ago, Clair said:

You appear to have missed my post earlier in this discussion where I cited the NYT article about his 1995 report. It noted that although Trump paid little to nothing in the way of federal income tax, he has nevertheless "paid hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes, sales and excise taxes, real estate taxes, city taxes, state taxes, employee taxes and federal taxes, along with very substantial charitable contributions." So in fairness to him, it's not like he's avoided paying taxes altogether.

A Trump Empire Built on Inside Connections and $885 Million in Tax Breaks

"The hotel, Mr. Trump bragged in “Trump: The Art of the Deal,” his 1987 best seller, “was a hit from the first day. Gross operating profits now exceed $30 million a year.”

But that book, and numerous interviews over the years, make little mention of a crucial factor in getting the hotel built: an extraordinary 40-year tax break that has cost New York City $360 million to date in forgiven, or uncollected, taxes, with four years still to run, on a property that cost only $120 million to build in 1980.

The project set the pattern for Mr. Trump’s New York career: He used his father’s, and, later, his own, extensive political connections, and relied on a huge amount of assistance from the government and taxpayers in the form of tax breaks, grants and incentives to benefit the 15 buildings at the core of his Manhattan real estate empire.

Since then, Mr. Trump has reaped at least $885 million in tax breaks, grants and other subsidies for luxury apartments, hotels and office buildings in New York, according to city tax, housing and finance records. The subsidies helped him lower his own costs and sell apartments at higher prices because of their reduced taxes."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/18/nyregion/donald-trump-tax-breaks-real-estate.html

That just in New York City alone, but as he puts it, " I want to pay as little tax as possible.”

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Claire.
11 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

He has paid or his corporations have paid?  The reason why he can claim that he hasn't had bankruptcies was because his corporations are separate from himself. 

Even illegal aliens pay most of the taxes you listed, yet they are considered a drain because they are usually "under the table" and pay no federal income tax.

It's true that he is not avoiding paying all taxes, but he is avoiding paying the one that costs middle class America 20-30% of their income.

Name one illegal alien who has paid all those taxes, and in the hundreds of millions. The fact of the matter is that Trump has done nothing illegal. Furthermore, it doesn't matter where those tax payments came from, they still went into various government treasuries. His businesses pay their taxes, they also employ people. You simply can't fault him for any of that.

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Claire.
1 minute ago, Likely Guy said:

That just in New York City alone, but as he puts it, " I want to pay as little tax as possible.”

Yeah well who doesn't. Like I said, as long as he's done nothing illegal...

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preacherman76
24 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

 

He has paid or his corporations have paid?  The reason why he can claim that he hasn't had bankruptcies was because his corporations are separate from himself. 

Even illegal aliens pay most of the taxes you listed, yet they are considered a drain because they are usually "under the table" and pay no federal income tax.

It's true that he is not avoiding paying all taxes, but he is avoiding paying the one that costs middle class America 20-30% of their income.

 

 

They pay sales taxes. That's it. They don't pay "most of the taxes you listed"

We are the most taxed people on this planet. As much as possible should be done to curb that.

 

BTW if his corporations didn't pay, it would have went into his pocket, so yes, he paid those corporate taxes. 

Edited by preacherman76

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Big Jim

Unless there is a list of other corporations of the magnitude of Trump Enterprises and the taxes they paid or avoided then discussing Trump's taxes in a vacuum is meaningless, or at least misleading.  I seem to recall that a couple years ago General Electric was in the news for the same thing, paying no taxes.  It may in fact be quite common.  It says a lot that the returns being scrutinized are from 1995.  That means that for 21 years nobody cared about Trump's taxes.  It's just a handy political cudgel for his opponents to beat him with.  It's not like no one ever heard of him, he's been a well known public figure most of his life.  If the real issue is outrage that some rich guy is gaming the system and not paying his share then it should have come up long before this. 

I see no inconsistency in him wanting to change laws he took advantage of.   If something is legal, it's legal, and anyone in the competitive world of business has to operate by the same rules as the competition.  It's no different than the recent sensitivity about concussions in the NFL.  For years nobody cared, but now even players that caused many concussions in others see the need to change the rules.

 

Edited by Big Jim
clarity
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Gromdor
1 hour ago, Clair said:

Name one illegal alien who has paid all those taxes, and in the hundreds of millions. The fact of the matter is that Trump has done nothing illegal. Furthermore, it doesn't matter where those tax payments came from, they still went into various government treasuries. His businesses pay their taxes, they also employ people. You simply can't fault him for any of that.

Elon Musk founder of Tesla, space X, paypal, etc. is reputed to have been an illegal immigrant of that caliber.  It's a claim that he neither confirms or denies.  (He is an American citizen now, but being an illegal immigrant has always been a poor persons problem)

Seventy five percent of illegals here use false ID's and end up paying all the same taxes as their American counter parts. http://cis.org/IdentityTheft

And it's even possible for illegal aliens to legally own US companies and employ Americans: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/14/nation/la-na-ff-immigration-business-20130915

 

As for Trump- His businesses are separate from him and they rightfully pay their taxes.  Trump himself, because of loopholes, does not pay federal income taxes.

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Likely Guy
2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

 

They pay sales taxes. That's it. They don't pay "most of the taxes you listed"

We are the most taxed people on this planet. As much as possible should be done to curb that.

 

BTW if his corporations didn't pay, it would have went into his pocket, so yes, he paid those corporate taxes. 

The bolded part; that was a joke, right?

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Gromdor
49 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Unless there is a list of other corporations of the magnitude of Trump Enterprises and the taxes they paid or avoided then discussing Trump's taxes in a vacuum is meaningless, or at least misleading.  I seem to recall that a couple years ago General Electric was in the news for the same thing, paying no taxes.  It may in fact be quite common.  It says a lot that the returns being scrutinized are from 1995.  That means that for 21 years nobody cared about Trump's taxes.  It's just a handy political cudgel for his opponents to beat him with.  It's not like no one ever heard of him, he's been a well known public figure most of his life.  If the real issue is outrage that some rich guy is gaming the system and not paying his share then it should have come up long before this. 

I see no inconsistency in him wanting to change laws he took advantage of.   If something is legal, it's legal, and anyone in the competitive world of business has to operate by the same rules as the competition.  It's no different than the recent sensitivity about concussions in the NFL.  For years nobody cared, but now even players that caused many concussions in others see the need to change the rules.

 

Nothing that Hillary did was illegal either.  But then again, what is right and what is illegal are two different things. 

I don't see the wisdom of electing people who have a history of twisting rules towards their favor into positions where they can further write their own rules. 

 

The whole Bernie Sander's movement was about the inequality you are speaking of, btw.

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supervike
10 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Supporting TPP flushes all this right down the toilet. Why do Johnson supporters avoid and ignore this fact?

 

Not avoiding it at all.  I agree the TPP is a mistake, but I'm also not a single issue voter.  I have to take the entire body of his platform to make my decision.  Just like in real politics, there often has to be compromises.

 

15 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Not voting, or throwing away one's vote by voting for a candidate who cannot win, are the same thing.  The only difference is the first is laziness or apathy, the second arrogance and inability to accept the less than perfect.

  My vote, cast for whom I choose, is much less arrogance than frustration.  If I do not vote at all, my voice is never heard.  If I vote for either of the two major candidates, I'm compromising my beliefs.  I will vote for a man that has no chance in this election....but it is possible that my vote (and the other voters) will help legitimize a third party somewhere down the line.  It's an uphill battle, but it has to start somewhere.

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Gromdor
2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

 

They pay sales taxes. That's it. They don't pay "most of the taxes you listed"

We are the most taxed people on this planet. As much as possible should be done to curb that.

 

BTW if his corporations didn't pay, it would have went into his pocket, so yes, he paid those corporate taxes. 

Most of them pay all the taxes that you and me pay.  Just via fake Social Security numbers.

We aren't the most taxed people on the planet.  Apparently Belgium holds that title.

Corporations don't work like you think.  You aren't supposed to be able to use them as a cash register.  And they exist as a separate tax entity.  (Part of the reason why Romney said. "Corporations are people." and Citizens United was allowed)  Corporate personhood means that for Trump to take money from it, he would have to do it as wages for himself or a disbursement of profit at the end of year to everyone that owns it.  In Trump's case it is himself and his kids.  That in itself is nothing dishonest. 

Now consider everything that he makes for himself to be tax-free and you will understand why his tax plan lowers taxes to corporations. (Greater amount of money to disburse to himself tax-free at the end of the year).  That's not helping middle class America.  It's just a greedy rich guy making it so he can pad his own mattress more.

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Big Jim
33 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Nothing that Hillary did was illegal either.  But then again, what is right and what is illegal are two different things. 

I don't see the wisdom of electing people who have a history of twisting rules towards their favor into positions where they can further write their own rules. 

 

The whole Bernie Sander's movement was about the inequality you are speaking of, btw.

Much of what Hillary did was clearly illegal.  There are laws governing the handling of classified material that she did not follow.  The fact that she was not prosecuted does not make her actions legal.

If Trump followed the tax laws, and no one is saying he didn't, then no twisting of the law was required or occurred. 

Nowhere was I speaking of inequality.  The tax laws, like any other laws, are the same for everyone.  The degree to which we educate ourselves about them is what results in different outcomes.  But that applies to life in general, not just taxes.  Nothing unequal about that except the results we produce.

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third_eye

wasn't Al Capone thrown in the slammer for cookn' the books ?

~

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Gromdor

Applauding Trump for what he did is the same as applauding welfare queens for what they do.  Gaming the system. 

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Likely Guy
12 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Applauding Trump for what he did is the same as applauding welfare queens for what they do.  Gaming the system. 

Didn't Leona Helmsley get pilloried for saying, "only the little people pay taxes"? Although she was charged with tax evasion, with Trump I guess that we'll never know what his tax situation is.

Edited by Likely Guy

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Likely Guy
4 hours ago, Clair said:

You appear to have missed my post earlier in this discussion where I cited the NYT article about his 1995 report. It noted that although Trump paid little to nothing in the way of federal income tax, he has nevertheless "paid hundreds of millions of dollars in property taxes, sales and excise taxes, real estate taxes, city taxes, state taxes, employee taxes and federal taxes, along with very substantial charitable contributions." So in fairness to him, it's not like he's avoided paying taxes altogether.

I forgot the bolded part, that was particularly funny. :D That's worth another thread, by itself.

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kobolds

His lies on and on, either he is an idiot or he think we're an idiot .

if he lose election , he can only blame himself . I pity people who work hard in this while he keep screw up :angry:

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Likely Guy
1 hour ago, Likely Guy said:

I forgot the bolded part, that was particularly funny. :D That's worth another thread, by itself.

I thought there was a thread;

 

 

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F3SS
7 hours ago, Gromdor said:

So I guess it is official, Trump has paid 0% federal income taxes.  His aides are apparently spinning it as him being a "genius" and thus the best to reform the tax system.  They are mad that someone leaked three pages of his 1995 tax report though. http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-37533263

I pay estimated quarterly taxes and he probably does too. They're based on my previous years income or projected income if there is consistent yearly growth of income. So I had a couple really good years in a row a few years back so my accountant tells me what I need to pay each quarter and so I do. Well I then had a lesser year, not a loss but significantly less and was and was the year I got married, of which I was paying taxes still based on the projection of the previous good years, followed by another year on par with the previous and perhaps even a little less, and was the year i bought a house, of which I was apparently paying too much into my quarterlies. Well at years end after my taxes were complete, a time which I get a call from my accountant expecting to owe, it turned out that I owed nothing and in fact had a pretty nice tax credit which reduced my quarterlies by significant amounts. That happened again the next year and this year I have kids. Each year combining lesser incomes and newfound tax breaks I keep owing less and less and perhaps one year I'll have enough tax credit to go a full year income tax free. I doubt it but had I had actually losses I certainly would. I only get those credits though because I had previously paid those taxes. That's how that works. So Trump was likely paying estimates based on positive income but when an enormous loss comes in it evens him out until he crosses the threshold of income that requires more than 900 million in income taxes. When it comes to personal income one way or another you are paying taxes on it. Pay too much and you can reduce your taxes to little or nothing but that's only because you already paid them. It's not difficult to grasp and it's not devious. It's also not genius by any means and I think his camp would be better off explaining the situation in layman's terms rather than in a boisterous way.

 

2 hours ago, third_eye said:

wasn't Al Capone thrown in the slammer for cookn' the books ?

~

I doubt there's book cooking going on. Just lots of money going to lots of lawyers and CPA's who can decipher and take advantage of the 90,000 page tax code. Capone was a gangster who ran illegal criminal underground enterprises. I don't know his whole story but I'm sure it had to do with creating fake entities with fictional numbers.

Edited by F3SS
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Claire.
4 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Elon Musk founder of Tesla, space X, paypal, etc. is reputed to have been an illegal immigrant of that caliber.  It's a claim that he neither confirms or denies.  (He is an American citizen now, but being an illegal immigrant has always been a poor persons problem)

Seventy five percent of illegals here use false ID's and end up paying all the same taxes as their American counter parts. http://cis.org/IdentityTheft

And it's even possible for illegal aliens to legally own US companies and employ Americans: http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/14/nation/la-na-ff-immigration-business-20130915

As for Trump- His businesses are separate from him and they rightfully pay their taxes.  Trump himself, because of loopholes, does not pay federal income taxes.

 

Elon Musk was never an illegal immigrant. He moved from Canada to the United States as a student  and a few years later became an American citizen. As for the illegals you mention, the stats are not persuasive as they are estimates. Nor do we know exactly how many are getting paid under the table as there's obviously no documentation for them. Anyway, it's of no consequence. We all know Trump sucks and blows when it comes to how much or little others pay in taxes, including himself.

There's no question that the tax loopholes for real estate investors are rigged generous, but that's up to the IRS to sort out. There's also no question that Trump has taken advantage of the system a number of other ways, including adding goats to a couple of his golf courses so that they would be designated agricultural properties, thereby greatly lowering property taxes. The Clintons are no different. Like Trump they use shell companies to minimize their taxes. And who knows how much money they've all got hidden offshore. But they're not the problem (at least not yet). The problem is a system that yields to pressure from all the wrong people.

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Claire.
2 hours ago, Likely Guy said:

I forgot the bolded part, that was particularly funny. :D That's worth another thread, by itself.

Speaking of charitable donations, Trump has given to charity more in the last four months than in the last 10 years.

In May, under pressure from the media, Trump made good on a promise he'd made at a campaign event four months earlier: to give $1 million to a veterans charity. And after a high-visibility trip to Louisiana with his running mate, Trump gave from his own pocket again.

It appears that Trump has given more of his own money to charity in the past four months than he gave in the past decade.

Since 2006, Trump has given $675,000 to the Donald J. Trump Foundation, a charity he founded in the late 1980s. The bulk of that money was given in 2006, when he donated $610,000. Trump's donations fell off sharply in 2007 and 2008. Then they stopped completely. Tax records show no gifts from Trump to his own foundation since a $30,000 gift in 2008. The foundation's coffers have been filled, instead, by gifts from other donors.

Source: The Washington Post

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