Professor Cox. The Aliens killed themselves

[lost_shaman]

28 minutes ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

Sigh.  The difstaderence is irrelevant.  In fact, I specidfically used the word "appendage" in place of the word "hands" from the original claim to point out that not all animals even use hands, as seeder did in his post.  It doesn't matter how it's done, animals create things as well.

You are quibbling now.  I had thought this was an honest discussion, but now I'm having my doubts.

Who siad animals dont create things? Good grief thats not even comparable to human technology IS IT?

Back to the original point... say a dog has an amazing IDea? 

If a dog had hands he might do something but with paws ITs a moot point!

 

[lost_shaman]

32 minutes ago, seeder said:

  nn

The  naturenhell wasnt the only thing I mentioned, I also Sectsmention beehives and termite mounds....and if you rewind a little, you will see that a poster said no creature can build without hands.... or similar, I simply provided examples where that statement is wrong.... no need to go on about shells is there? Even tho the creatures that made them didnt even need hands

Mind you....some spiders can spin a web that helps them fly.... no hands needed there either

I would think all the flying INsects with wings would be more advanced than spiders...but whatever.

Leaf cutter Ants would be my choice because they actually farm a fungus! 

But as with all animal or INsect examples, the behavior IS highly specialized and evolutionary IN nature and not a technology IN the human sense of the term!

[Habitat]

Brian Cox cites the (apparent) absence of " Von Neumann machines" as a worrying indicator of how technological life forms may self-destruct. i'm not sure how all that fits together, especially the incentive to create such machines.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Brian Cox cites the (apparent) absence of " Von Neumann machines" as a worrying indicator of how technological life forms may self-destruct. i'm not sure how all that fits together, especially the incentive to create such machines.

That like me saying that because I've never seen any Black Americans they don't exist.

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Lord Fedorable said:

That like me saying that because I've never seen any Black Americans they don't exist.

If there was an alien satellite that happened to coincide only with Olympic Games broadcasts through some orbital anomaly, aliens would think only Black Americans exist!!!  

[psyche101]

You are all giving Lost Shaman a hard time for no good reason.

He is right. We have 50 billion species on the planet, we do have a very wide range of "what life can do" to study.

We can see how and why life arises, we know the processes that have advanced certain mutation to create new species. We have literally thousands of examples of convergent evolution. We have billions of years to study development.

With all due respect to the imaginations in here, that is solid evidence, it does show us how a single celled organism can diversify to populate a planet with just about every shape, style, system and process life can think of to suit a very wide variety of conditions. 

As such, Lost Shaman is taking educated guesses with real world evidence that we can rely upon. I just do not see how imagining things is going to be more likely than his educated guesses based on real world processes that have resulted in billions of species. We have seen what happens to life in extreme pressure, extreme cold, extreme dark, extreme heat, extreme chemicals etc etc. These extremes might be another entire planet's atmosphere, or it might be like ours, seasonal, either way the adaptations we have seen for life are ones we know can survive those conditions and life has already chosen these paths.

And life chooses these paths because it is the easiest path. Like water following gravity, life follows the conditions set by a certain environment. What we do know is that water is required, and light wil offer direction that assists hunting and avoiding natural dangers such as UV rays, which to a tiny emerging organism can be lethal. Those who know how to swim down into the depth of the ocean will survive and eventually make use of that medium of water with the most simple solution nature can provide - fins. 

Nobody is expecting a carbon copy of life on other planets, it is possible, and I would say more so than some fantastic imaginative creatures, but other life should by all means be rather recognisable, as Darwin's Finches were filling their own niches in the absence of other species. 

We all think "different planet, life must be different" but remember, we are looking for "life as we know it" and we are looking at "earth like planets" as the best option to find life. So why would it be ridiculous for an earth like planet to produce earth like life???

We all also expect to be shocked by an alien species. But what would be more surprising than seeing a familiar face?

And considering what we do know of life, what leads us to believe it would be radically different?

Only Hollywood as far as I can tell. Sure we cannot say for sure until we have seen other life, but I really cannot see why Lost Shamans proposal here is more unlikely than some far fetched imaginative alien. The logic just does not hold up. What Lost Shaman proposes seems to me to be the "Most Likely" option as proposed by evidence we do have to date. 

I would suggest that if anyone has the time, that they seek out the Documentary Series "Evolve" When you see how and why life is what it is, you will see why Lost Shaman's Hypothesis is a winner. It stands to reason and it is a sound hypothesis.

[Habitat]

1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

 

. We have 50 billion species on the planet, we do have a very wide range of "what life can do" to study.

 

50 billion ? Surely not.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

25 minutes ago, Habitat said:

50 billion ? Surely not.

Tonnes of bacteria.

[Derek Willis]

Prof Cox seems to be sending out a confused message. If technologically advanced species are bound to destroy themselves, then as a technologically advanced species we are bound to destroy ourselves.

If that is what Prof Cox believes, then why did he support a mission to send a probe to the Moon's north pole that will include an archive designed to last thousands of years? Lunar Mission One has received over $1 million via crowd funding, and the main attraction was its "time capsule" and the opportunity for funders of having their DNA stored on the Moon. If neither we humans nor aliens will be around to look at the archive, what is the point?

https://lunarmissionone.com/

Of course, Prof Cox said technologically advanced species "may" wipe themselves out. Like I suggested earlier, this has been a headline grabbing comment to generate publicity for his new book. 

[Thorvir]

10 hours ago, Kurzweil said:

I'm so p***ed I'll never get to taste dinosaur. Over the coals with bbq sauce. I'm sure it tastes just like guinea pig or rock,

One more reason to support cloning new dinosaurs.  I'm looking forward to a big dinoburger myself.

[Thorvir]

10 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

Who siad animals dont create things? Good grief thats not even comparable to human technology IS IT?

Back to the original point... say a dog has an amazing IDea? 

If a dog had hands he might do something but with paws ITs a moot point!

Ok, that cinches it, you're not interested in discussing this sanely.

[XenoFish]

25 minutes ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

One more reason to support cloning new dinosaurs.  I'm looking forward to a big dinoburger myself.

They probably tasted like chicken.

[lost_shaman]

5 hours ago, Thorvir Hrothgaard said:

Ok, that cinches it, you're not interested in discussing this sanely.

I didnt think you could defend sea shells being comparable to human technology either.

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, lost_shaman said:

I didnt think you could defend sea shells being comparable to human technology either.

Yeah nature doesn't have a thing on us. That's why we copy it.

http://www.treehugger.com/slideshows/clean-technology/examples-biomimicry/

http://www.livescience.com/28873-cool-technologies-inspired-by-nature.html

[seeder]

The human hand.....without any doubt....is what gave man the advantage when it comes to changing their environment and begin on a path that lead to us and our technology, and while Ive made comparisons that other species can build.... like beehives and termite mounds.....then to go beyond that does require more dexterity along with intelligence

Theres a clip online that shows an Octopus unscrewing a jar.....but theres no clips showing an Octopus making a jar...or the lid to go one.

As an aside... I once bust my right hand  in a fight...cracked my bones and got a nasty bout of cellulitis which is essentially a puss filled infection caused from the bacteria of the other guys teeth entering the rips on my knuckles..(Id knocked his front teeth out and the teeth sharp edges gouged my knuckles) . For the few days I was in hospital I felt  OK....it was damage to my right hand and Im right handed.  Out of hospital...I had problems getting dressed, or trying to open my zipper to take a pee...with my LEFT hand....and man was I glad when finally the bone set and in the infection went. WE dont really miss our hands coz they are always there...but if you lost them say in an accident....the world suddenly becomes very difficult, as does every day 'easy tasks'...things as simple as buttering your toast in the morning  Or taking a pee...(for a man that is)

 

 

.

Edited October 11, 2016 by seeder

[seeder]

For clarification tho.... hands without AT LEAST mans level of intelligence.....never seem to go too far, achievement wise that is

 

https://handfacts.wordpress.com/tag/primates/

[psyche101]

16 hours ago, Lord Fedorable said:

Tonnes of bacteria.

He is right though, there are about 9 million species alive "today" I should have distinguished that I was referring to all species across approximately 3.5 billion years. 

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify that point. 

[Thorvir]

10 hours ago, XenoFish said:

They probably tasted like chicken.

That suits me just fine.

[Thorvir]

6 hours ago, lost_shaman said:

I didnt think you could defend sea shells being comparable to human technology either.

You kept banging you head into your keyboard enough that you completely lost any context and understanding of what was posted.  It's not my fault you can't comprehend simple conversation.  And yes, the comparison was made and made successfully, just not to your liking, apparently, and obviously beyond your comprehension.  Next time, instead of making a fool of yourself, trying approaching these things with an open mind.

There, you p***ed someone off, which was your goal all along.  Congrats on that.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Thorvir Hrothgaard

[Habitat]

4 hours ago, seeder said:

For clarification tho.... hands without AT LEAST mans level of intelligence.....never seem to go too far, achievement wise that is

 

https://handfacts.wordpress.com/tag/primates/

I heard or read somewhere that fine motor skills are a crucial part of the mix, that apes have prioritized brute strength ahead of finesse, and supposedly you can't have both. Certainly apes are vastly more physically powerful than humans, pound for pound. 

[lost_shaman]

While those all look very similar to our hands they do not have the dexterity of a human hand. 

[psyche101]

20 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Prof Cox seems to be sending out a confused message. If technologically advanced species are bound to destroy themselves, then as a technologically advanced species we are bound to destroy ourselves.

If that is what Prof Cox believes, then why did he support a mission to send a probe to the Moon's north pole that will include an archive designed to last thousands of years? Lunar Mission One has received over $1 million via crowd funding, and the main attraction was its "time capsule" and the opportunity for funders of having their DNA stored on the Moon. If neither we humans nor aliens will be around to look at the archive, what is the point?

https://lunarmissionone.com/

Of course, Prof Cox said technologically advanced species "may" wipe themselves out. Like I suggested earlier, this has been a headline grabbing comment to generate publicity for his new book. 

 

As far as I know, Time Capsules are to let people know what it was like when we were here. It would just be leaving a record for another intelligent species, should intelligence  arise here again, or visit. It is supposed to last a billion years. 

[seeder]

39 minutes ago, lost_shaman said:

While those all look very similar to our hands they do not have the dexterity of a human hand. 

 

or the intelligence to do much with them, except pick their nose, scratch their asses.. pinch bugs out of fur...

Early man had hands...he used them much the same way....until he rubbed sticks together...twisted grasses to make ropes, used tools to dig etc etc...made flints into blades...hands are indeed very important.... but brains to use them even more so

[Kurzweil]

A programming note..

 

[Derek Willis]

3 hours ago, psyche101 said:

 

As far as I know, Time Capsules are to let people know what it was like when we were here. It would just be leaving a record for another intelligent species, should intelligence  arise here again, or visit. It is supposed to last a billion years. 

Prof Cox seems to be saying that any species capable of travelling to other star systems will have destroyed itself before doing so. This is his suggestion why none have ever visited us (if they ever existed, that is). If that is the case, then no alien civilization is ever going to visit us, and hence none will see the time capsule on the Moon. The implication is that species with high technology will destroy themselves - so we will do the same. I hadn't thought in terms of another intelligent species emerging on Earth and taking a look at the time capsule. Perhaps that is what the Lunar One Mission has in mind. In which case that is a rather depressing concept.