Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[stereologist]

Seems quite clear that the reasons you gave are possibly unrelated to the burial practices.

[Windowpane]

8 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Quote

"Many rituals in ancient Egypt manifest a preoccupation with the orientation of the body. The dead were often buried with the head towards the north."  - Egyptian Concepts on the \Orientation of the Human Body, Maarten J. Raven (from here.)"

Were the AEs burying their dead upside-down?

SC

Quote

Various other rituals demonstrate a strong predilection for facing south, an orientation which is also apparent from the designations for east and west in the Egyptian language. Apparently there was a firm belief in the need to conform to the four directions of the sky during rites de passage such as birth, mummification, and burial. (Link)

 

[Scott Creighton]

7 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

 

Various other rituals demonstrate a strong predilection for facing south, an orientation which is also apparent from the designations for east and west in the Egyptian language. Apparently there was a firm belief in the need to conform to the four directions of the sky during rites de passage such as birth, mummification, and burial.

"Facing south" suggests 'looking south'. When lying flat you look south when your head is to the north. If your head is to the south (lying flat) you will be looking (facing) north.

So, if the AEs buried their dead with their heads to the north, were they burying them upside-down?

SC

[stereologist]

2 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

 

 

"Facing south" suggests 'looking south'. When lying flat you look south when your head is to the north. If your head is to the south (lying flat) you will be looking (facing) north.

So, if the AEs buried their dead with their heads to the north, were they burying them upside-down?

SC

Lying flat you look upward. Peripheral vision allows a person to see the entire sky. If your head is to the south you will be facing upward. If your head is to the north you will still be facing upward.

 

[Jarocal]

48 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Lying flat you look upward. Peripheral vision allows a person to see the entire sky. If your head is to the south you will be facing upward. If your head is to the north you will still be facing upward.

 

If they are like me all they would see looking South is a large belly. I told a coworker I lost ten pounds, they told me to look behind me they found the missing ten pounds...

Edited November 25, 2017 by Jarocal
Yea tho I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of furballs I will fear no feline.

[Windowpane]

1 hour ago, Jarocal said:

If they are like me all they would see looking South is a large belly. I told a coworker I lost ten pounds, they told me to look behind me they found the missing ten pounds...

(I'm sure Osiris would never have had that trouble ....  ) 

However, if you're a corpse lying on the ground, you wouldn't really see anything, would you.  It's the people standing up and attending to your corpse who would be doing the seeing ...

 

[Scott Creighton]

5 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

(I'm sure Osiris would never have had that trouble ....  ) 

However, if you're a corpse lying on the ground, you wouldn't really see anything, would you.  It's the people standing up and attending to your corpse who would be doing the seeing ...

 

So, given that the AEs buried their dead with their heads to the north, were they burying them upside-down?

SC

[Windowpane]

26 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

So, given that the AEs buried their dead with their heads to the north, were they burying them upside-down?

SC

Or, to put it another way: is that the right question?

Quote

The west as an abode of the dead?

The orientation of bodies in burials has often used [sic] as a basis for attempts to reconstruct ideas about the afterlife …  From the fifth millennium onward, the dominant pattern of body orientation in predynastic Egyptian burials was head to south facing west, although this was by no means invariable.  Since in Pharaonic times the west was regarded as the abode of the dead, ⁶⁹ some view this orientation as proof that Egyptians of earlier periods thought likewise …  If the pattern really does reflect a predynastic belief in the west as the land of posthumous existence which continued into later times, then it is difficult to explain why there is more and more deviation from it the closer we move in time to the beginning of the Egyptian state.  Moreover, there are other possible reasons why the deceased may have been buried head to south facing west.  Alignment of the body so that the head was to the south may have been the most important consideration.  The south was the direction from which the Nile River flowed.  Later on in Egyptian history the south took precedence over the other cardinal points, so in theory it could have had some sort of symbolic significance even at this early date. ⁷⁰  Given this alignment, since most bodies were placed on their left side, the dead would face west as a matter of course.  (Smith, M. (2017) Following Osiris: Perspectives on the Osirian Afterlife from Four Millennia: 20-1)

 

[Scott Creighton]

11 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

Or, to put it another way: is that the right question?

 

Indeed.

So what do you consider should be the right question?

SC

[Kenemet]

6 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Lehner writes:

So the dismembered body parts of Osiris (i.e. the first 16/19 pyramids) are scattered along the banks of the Nile. The head/crown lies to the north of the land thus the feet to the south.

Were the AEs doing this because they knew the head of Osiris rested in the north?

SC

You still haven't proven that the mapped pyramid arrangements are anything but coincidence or that anyone other than you "recognized" them as forming the shape of Osiris.

[Kenemet]

16 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Would not "transfigured spirit" correlate back to the previously posted glyph that also could contain the meaning "feminine soul".

No.  It doesn't have the feminine ending and there would also have to be a "male soul" counterpart ... and we know there's no such thing.

Akh/Akheru are the words (singular and plural) for "transfigured soul".  Akhet (which I presume someone is trying to make "feminine") is the word for horizon. 

(DISCLAIMER: Modern standardized insertions of vowels into a language that seldom wrote vowels during that phase of their writing.  Also: to the best of my understanding after taking one semester of hieroglyphs.)  

[Hanslune]

7 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You still haven't proven that the mapped pyramid arrangements are anything but coincidence or that anyone other than you "recognized" them as forming the shape of Osiris.

That's rather unimportant in Scottworld. Just like why they would built three 'seed vaults' right next to others with lots of little pyramids around them while there were lots of them already in existence and more made later.

Remember he isn't trying to prove anything as he has clearly supported this course by not trying to present this idea in a scientific manner.

[Kenemet]

On 11/24/2017 at 5:08 AM, Scott Creighton said:

But in any case - this would not have been an insurmountable problem to plot these pyramid locations. Begin at Abu Roash - the highest elevated of all these pyramids and the tip of the Atef Crown in my proposition - and look south. You can easily see the Giza pyramids from there. So you plot Abu Roash as your starting point. You observe Giza and plot those three points relative to the first point you made. Now walk to Giza. From Giza you can, in the distance, see the pyramids at Saqqara. You plot these relative to the three points you previously made for the Gizamids. You go to Saqqara. From there you can easily see the pyramids at Dashur and so on. It really isn't very difficult at all.

Over and above which, one of the mainstream theories of the Gizamid SW/NE diagonal alignment (not that I agree with it) is that they were designed to align with the ancient temple at Heliopolis, about 8 miles from Giza. If true, how did they achieve that?

SC

Again...how could they see the shape?  Since you are not using the exact position of things (you stretch some pyramids apart, move the distances, etc) hose same points could equally describe the figure of an Akh, or the djed pillar, Isis' vulture headdress, the two crowns, the hind leg of a bull, a magical knife, or the bound reed and lotus symbol (symbolizing the unification of Egypt) or even the feather of Ma'at.

Or the figure of Bastet, for that matter.

Unless you have some documentation that each of these pyramids has an Osiris name, you've got pareidolia and any other interpretation of the arrangement is equally valid.

[Kenemet]

And I forget who started it, but the burial practices of the Egyptians was not so much "Head to the north/south" as it was "Facing the west."  We see a majority of burials (which may be local practices) with heads oriented to north or south but in either case, most times they are buried on their sides facing west... or had a coffin with eyes painted on the western side (a brief discussion of this with an example appears in Collier, Mark, and Bill Manley. How to read Egyptian hieroglyphs: a step-by-step guide to teach yourself. Univ of California Press, 1998. which is where I saw this for the first time.)

This practice changes throughout the dynasties so that we can't make a blanket statement about all burials at all times in Egyptian history.  There is some indication of north-south head orientation based upon gender but again that is more a localized custom than one that is valid for the entire land.

Kmt_Sesh can probably add more detail here.

[kmt_sesh]

11 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

I apologise for my part in diverting the topic. In my defense, however, the hypothesis of mine presently being discussed  is tangentially related to the main topic of the thread in as much as it is related to my interpretation of the 'Void' in the GP:

Here it is for those who may have missed it:

'Hall of the Ancestors (Article)'

SC

Thanks for that. I really don't mind discussing your theory (and I have been involved). I'm just really interested in the void, as are you (LOL Probably for different reasons). But for the moment there might not be a lot more to say about it. I just wanted to share that video, which I enjoyed. If the video generates some discussion, all the better.

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

And I forget who started it, but the burial practices of the Egyptians was not so much "Head to the north/south" as it was "Facing the west."  We see a majority of burials (which may be local practices) with heads oriented to north or south but in either case, most times they are buried on their sides facing west... or had a coffin with eyes painted on the western side (a brief discussion of this with an example appears in Collier, Mark, and Bill Manley. How to read Egyptian hieroglyphs: a step-by-step guide to teach yourself. Univ of California Press, 1998. which is where I saw this for the first time.)

This practice changes throughout the dynasties so that we can't make a blanket statement about all burials at all times in Egyptian history.  There is some indication of north-south head orientation based upon gender but again that is more a localized custom than one that is valid for the entire land.

Kmt_Sesh can probably add more detail here.

I largely agree with Kenemet's statement. We like to think of all things Egyptian as homogeneous, but in reality there was a lot of variation. Numerous factors contributed to this. The excerpts in the Pyramid Texts, for example, that talk about Osiris or the deceased gathering his bones, might well reflect on the predynastic and early Old Kingdom practice of bodies that were reduced to skeletons (defleshed) and the bones bundled and wrapped individually. Some graves from these early periods show how the individual bones were carefully and neatly placed within the grave, but not anatomically. This is the case with the human remains Petrie found in Mastaba 17, at Meidum. This mastaba contains one of the earliest (the earliest?) sarcophagi of hard stone. The identity of this man is unknown but dates to early in Sneferu's reign. There was almost no flesh found on his bones, but they were separately wrapped and placed within the sarcophagus.

Additionally, the location of the tomb or necropolis might not have worked for geographical norms; the body might've been positioned to face a certain direction only ritually. In predynastic times bodies might be placed in differing directions, even in the same necropolis. In the Old Kingdom and into the dawn of the Middle Kingdom, like Kenemet said, many bodies were placed so they faced the west—the land of the dead. But I'll amend Kenemet's statement by adding that in other burials, the bodies on their sides faced the east—the rising sun, with which the deceased would be reborn every day.

What I most agree with Kenemet's post is that we should avoid making blanket statements. I'll always remember a maxim taught to us by the Egyptologist under whom I studied hieroglyphs. He wisely advised us, when discussing ancient Egypt, try to avoid the absolutes "always" and "never." There will be exceptions, especially based on the standards of any given point in dynastic times.

[mstower]

23 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

So, if the AEs buried their dead with their heads to the north, were they burying them upside-down?

SC

Still haven’t cracked that book on elementary logic, have you, Scott?

The only basis for the unrestricted generalisation “the ancient Egyptians buried their dead with their heads to the north” is a finite data set and the inference from data to conclusion is of the kind labelled “inductive”: it is not a (deductively) valid inference; it does not establish the conclusion.  If data emerges which runs counter to the generalisation, it’s the generalisation which falls.

I mention this (again) as it’s the basis of much of your malformed reasoning.

M.

[mstower]

On 11/24/2017 at 3:01 AM, kmt_sesh said:

An Egyptian would see this and think: "Are they all having a stroke?"

Or “What are they on?”

Top left is obviously a souvenir mug with a picture of a pyramid on it.  Near bottom right would appear to be a Hitotsume-kozō.  Clear proof of trans-Pacific contact!

[mstower]

On 11/18/2017 at 2:07 PM, Scott Creighton said:

Many modern Arabic words are ancient Egyptian in origin (via the Bedouin Arabs of the Sanai).

Take the Arabic word oufou'k or ufu'k (Kufu reversed) means 'Horizon'.

Curious.

SC

. . . and “god” spelt backwards is “dog”.  It makes you think.

Comedy linguistics.  I dare say someone familiar with the relevant phonology (Arabic and ancient Egyptian) could point out that the sounds (phones) in الأفق and Ḫwfw are quite different—but really, isn’t it better to just laugh?

M.

[mstower]

On 11/25/2017 at 1:36 PM, Scott Creighton said:

Quote

"Many rituals in ancient Egypt manifest a preoccupation with the orientation of the body. The dead were often buried with the head towards the north."  - Egyptian Concepts on the \Orientation of the Human Body, Maarten J. Raven (from here.)"

Were the AEs burying their dead upside-down?

SC

Suggest you look up the word “often”.

M.

[mstower]

On 11/18/2017 at 11:12 PM, Scott Creighton said:

And in Ancient Egypt there were several meanings of the phonetic 'Akhet'.

SC

. . . which is why there are such things as determinatives.

Still no grasp of the basics, still making up his own Egyptology.

M.

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, mstower said:

. . . which is why there are such things as determinatives.

Still no grasp of the basics, still making up his own Egyptology.

M.

Howdy Mstower

Its worse than that - I think he has been talking to and BELIEVING what Cladking has to say.....using Mercer as a source, etc., etc.

 

[mstower]

32 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Its worse than that - I think he has been talking to and BELIEVING what Cladking has to say.....using Mercer as a source, etc., etc.

Cladking is a pons asinorum.

M.

[Kenemet]

Hello Martin (Mstower)!  Good to see you here!

[Jarocal]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:15 PM, Kenemet said:

No.  It doesn't have the feminine ending and there would also have to be a "male soul" counterpart ... and we know there's no such thing.

Akh/Akheru are the words (singular and plural) for "transfigured soul".  Akhet (which I presume someone is trying to make "feminine") is the word for horizon. 

(DISCLAIMER: Modern standardized insertions of vowels into a language that seldom wrote vowels during that phase of their writing.  Also: to the best of my understanding after taking one semester of hieroglyphs.)  

I was referring to a statement made earlier in the thread by KmT Sesh. 

Quote

Why not? As a biliteral the crested ibis represents the sound Ax (akh). The addition of the t (bread loaf) to the immediate left of the bird forms the word Axt (akhet). That's the fun of hieroglyphs: many words can be spelled in different ways. Now, akhet could be read in different ways, one of which might be "female akh (soul)." But obviously that doesn't make sense here, given the context, which is everything. The town glyph indicates a place, and the cartouche assigns it to a specific king. Of course another common rendering for akhet is "horizon," so altogether Akhet-Khufu refers to a place called "Khufu's Horizon."

Possessing little interest in the crude scribblings of a nescient feline demon worshipping culture, I simply referenced back to an assertion made by someone who has the patience, and incredulously, an actual desire to study the inane babbling left us by the ancient Egyptians. 

I really see no reason why Khufu's inner woman makes any less sense than Khufu's horizon given the highly spiritual nature of many AE writings.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Jarocal
I sold Vyse the red paint