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Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016


Hanslune

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4 hours ago, Harte said:

Because they assert that the GP was built so long before the Egyptians that the advanced ceramics such a supercivilization would have had have long since been eroded into dust.

What do they care of Egyptian pottery?

They don't credit the Egyptians with building the GP.

Harte

Hmmm so the advanced ceramics turn to dust huh, oh wait clear evidence of their environmental view point. Anyone who has spent time in Egypt that doesn't consist of a trip centered on western style hotels, buses and prepared tourist sites will note that in the sand around them are ....shards, everywhere. I remember once waiting for a bus near Luxor and was wandering around the edge of the car park and kicking about in the sand there. I uncovered a small mound of such pieces of pottery. I'm not familiar with AE pottery but do know what styles were found in Cyprus. Yep there was a lovely piece of Greek pottery (attic black). Its all over Egypt and similarly all over the middle east. 10,000 years of broken pottery, nearly each piece having survived.

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8 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Rationalize away Orthodoxy's fears however you must.

Ah but how do you rationalize away the fringe confusion over what they believe? Other than believing that orthodoxy is wrong they can't really agree on anything else. I mean is it Atlanteans, Aliens, advanced lost civilizations, multi-dimensional hedgehogs or what that was doing all that building? :blink:

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On 12/1/2017 at 7:11 AM, Scott Creighton said:

Kenemet: In addition, once something was inside one of the pyramids (such as the Great Pyramid), getting anything OUT of there so it could be used is very problematic.  As you probably know if you've been inside the GP (I have), hauling a 20 lb sack of grain up the long passageway in the dark (or taking it down) would be extremely difficult.  It would take a lot of time to empty those vaults... anything down there is not accessible.  

SC: Not as difficult as hauling a 12 stone body up there. If yout hink they can do that, why do you think it would be difficult to carry much smaller, lighter items out? Over and above which, most of the galleries and ‘magazines’ under the Step Pyramid were found empty with the exception of .two that had, apparently, collapsed in antiquity. These two were found to contain some 40,000 vessels of various descriptions, the passages covered with vast quantities of grain.

Continuing...

It sounds like you haven't been in the GP.  Yes, hauling a body up or down would be difficult but not impossible.  The coffins of that era were simply oblong boxes (not the anthropoid coffins we associate with mummies, thanks to Tut) and with the sarcophagus already in place, it's possible to pull one upslope and then move it into the sarcophagus.  And where are you getting the"passages covered with vast quantities of grain" in Djoser's pyramid from?  Is this another medieval source?  Can you link something that's not your writing that mentions this?

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SC: We’re not talking about a granary designed to distribute grain – they’re ‘Recovery Vauts’ not unlike our own ‘Recovery Vault’ in Svalbard.. They store only enough seeds to reboot the kingdom. But they would store other things like tools, knowledge, storage vessels possibly even weapons etc. (The kind of items that we have actually recovered from one of them i.e. the Step Pyramid). The combined volume of storage space in these first 16/19 pyramids is far greater than our own Svalbard seed vault. And if the massive underground ‘galleries’ to the west of G2 were also used as some form of storage then the overall storage capacity becomes truly enormous, possibly even providing the surviving population with enough immediate use supplies. Each pyramid, however, would keep a small store of recovery items safe within its walls.

Where, exactly, are you getting the combined volume of storage space from?  As I recall, a number of the pyramids are in ruins.  Are you trying to say that every single pyramid in Egypt was built as some sort of mysterious "recovery vault".  We know that they had certain traditions ("The Feast of the Beautiful Valley", the celebration of Osiris at Abydos) that were held for over a thousand years (and closer to 3,000 years. 

If these were "recovery vaults"

* why didn't they finish all of them?

* why didn't they record the donations there (since pharaohs recorded things like this)?

* why didn't the kings make proclamations to have them continually guarded as they had guards over the most valuable things in the land?

* why were there no regular inventories (as there are in other storage areas) to make sure nobody had absconded with stuff?

* If this was to be used to "save the country" why didn't they replace and replenish items when the pyramids were robbed?

* why didn't they repair them?   If they had a tradition that "this will save the country" then nomarchs, princes, and kings would all have worked hard to keep the structures in good repair (as they did with the national temples) and to donate to them and make sure that the contents were sound?

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. And, as outlined above, the recovery chambers (or the pyramid entrance) don’t need to be high up. The key objective of the pyramid is that it is high enough to be seen from a considerable distance in all directions, marking the location of each cache of recovery goods like a massive cairn

Why didn't they put them on higher nearby ground?  Some of the ones you identify as "Osiris" aren't very clearly seen.  And with 250 (or more) pyramids in Egypt, how would anyone know which of the mysterious pyramids (including unfinished ones) was the right one to check?

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Kenemet: And how would anyone have known that these abandoned structures, buried under sand, were pyramids?  

SC: That is how they are now. They were likely in much better condition in antiquity.

I should have been clearer.   in regards to the unfinished pyramids, how would anyone know they were supposed to be part of a "recovery system" if they're buried under lots of sand.  

And finally, you're basing a lot of information on Strabo while conveniently ignoring that both he and Diodorus (whom you also quote) as well as Pliny and others identified the pyramids as kings' tombs.  Josephus seems to be the only one calling them a storehouse of any sort.
 

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Ah but how do you rationalize away the fringe confusion over what they believe? Other than believing that orthodoxy is wrong they can't really agree on anything else. I mean is it Atlanteans, Aliens, advanced lost civilizations, multi-dimensional hedgehogs or what that was doing all that building? :blink:

It seems they started with the low hanging fruit of an axiom when trying to build consensus. :D

The lost ancient civilization of Atlantis was populated by a race of extra terrestrial hedgehogs with the capabilities for multidimensional travel. The megalithic structures were built by humans with knowledge bestowed upon mankind by our Past Basset Masters. Knowledge lost to us with the dark age of humanity that arrived with the idolatrous feline demon worshipping cults.

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39 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

It seems they started with the low hanging fruit of an axiom when trying to build consensus. :D

The lost ancient civilization of Atlantis was populated by a race of extra terrestrial hedgehogs with the capabilities for multidimensional travel. The megalithic structures were built by humans with knowledge bestowed upon mankind by our Past Basset Masters. Knowledge lost to us with the dark age of humanity that arrived with the idolatrous feline demon worshipping cults.

A Canine canard!  The Feline Masters of the Universe reject your claim!  And everyone knows it was meerkats, not hedgehogs, you ballywoking binswibbling basset backscratcher!

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3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

If these were "recovery vaults"

* why didn't they finish all of them?

* why didn't they record the donations there (since pharaohs recorded things like this)?

* why didn't the kings make proclamations to have them continually guarded as they had guards over the most valuable things in the land?

* why were there no regular inventories (as there are in other storage areas) to make sure nobody had absconded with stuff?

* If this was to be used to "save the country" why didn't they replace and replenish items when the pyramids were robbed?

 

Good list Kenemet but I would add why did they bunch them all up? Wouldn't it have been better to spread them out and what about the main agricultural area in the delta - none? Really?

Bunching; there were what 11 or so on Giza itself? Why so many? Did they put different grain types in each one or what?

Additionally, has the math been done? You have X amount of farmland in ancient Egypt how much seed would you need to reseed it for a complete crop? The modern vault contains protected samples not enough to restart agriculture from its limited supply.

Here's a graphic showing the excellent ratio between construction and storage of Khafre tomb. Excellent planning.......lol

220px-Khephren-plan.jpg

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On 11/21/2017 at 2:57 PM, Harte said:

There are only 1300 cubic meters of open volume in the GP (excepting any new space found when they explore this new cavity.)

The Great Pyramid occupies 2.6 million cubic meters of volume.

IOW, open interior space in the GP (and this includes passageways) is about 5 one-hundredths of one percent of the structure.

Not very good for ANY kind of storage vault, except for dead king storage.

Harte

I did a dangerous thing and did some calculation and perhaps Harte our preeminent mathematician can verify.

So 1300 cubic meters - presuming we stuff every centimeter with wheat

1 cubic meter of wheat weighs 790 kilograms so that would be 1,027,000 kilograms of wheat. So how much wheat seed do you need to reseed say an acre?

Estimates go from 30-180 lbs per acre depending on the soil. We'll use the average of that estimate 105 lbs or 47.6272 kilograms per acre.

So how many acres of land did the AE have in production? Unknown to me, however the modern Egyptians have 37,450 sq.km or by 247.1054 acres per sq. km that is 9,254,097.2 acres.

So I will guess that the AE had 10% of what the moderns did in production. or 925,409 acres in production.

925,409 x 47.6272 kg's of seed equals 44,074,496 kg of wheat seed would be needed.

Well that would mean that one stuffed pyramid would contain 44,074,496 / 1,027,000 = .02330% of what would be needed to reseed the AE farmland. Hmmmmmmm

https://tradingeconomics.com/egypt/agricultural-land-percent-of-land-area-wb-data.html

 

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2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

A Canine canard!  The Feline Masters of the Universe reject your claim!  And everyone knows it was meerkats, not hedgehogs, you ballywoking binswibbling basset backscratcher!

 Habitual heresy and furtive, fallacious, feline fabrications! 

 Bountiful befuddlement brayed or prevalent prevarication postulated by Orthodox Academic adulaters is nothing new to the "out of the box" theorists who find innovative solutions to the inadequacies in Academia's assertions.

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7 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

 Habitual heresy and furtive, fallacious, feline fabrications! 

 Bountiful befuddlement brayed or prevalent prevarication postulated by Orthodox Academic adulaters is nothing new to the "out of the box" theorists who find innovative solutions to the inadequacies in Academia's assertions.

What? I say pshaw, pshaw twice in this case. Don't make me have to say it thrice!!

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21 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

I did a dangerous thing and did some calculation and perhaps Harte our preeminent mathematician can verify.

So 1300 cubic meters - presuming we stuff every centimeter with wheat

1 cubic meter of wheat weighs 790 kilograms so that would be 1,027,000 kilograms of wheat. So how much wheat seed do you need to reseed say an acre?

Estimates go from 30-180 lbs per acre depending on the soil. We'll use the average of that estimate 105 lbs or 47.6272 kilograms per acre.

So how many acres of land did the AE have in production? Unknown to me, however the modern Egyptians have 37,450 sq.km or by 247.1054 acres per sq. km that is 9,254,097.2 acres.

So I will guess that the AE had 10% of what the moderns did in production. or 925,409 acres in production.

925,409 x 47.6272 kg's of seed equals 44,074,496 kg of wheat seed would be needed.

Well that would mean that one stuffed pyramid would contain 44,074,496 / 1,027,000 = .02330% of what would be needed to reseed the AE farmland. Hmmmmmmm

https://tradingeconomics.com/egypt/agricultural-land-percent-of-land-area-wb-data.html

 

 

Your getting as bad matherbating as some of the phringe conjectures looking for the magic ratios and information encoded in the pyramid.

Simplify it:

Pyramid can hold 2,264,147.43lbs of wheat seed to try and plant 925,500 acres 2.44lb/acre when 30 lb/acre is the low estimate needed. 

Edited by Jarocal
Yea tho I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of furballs I will fear no feline.
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Oh and on happier news. Rupert has returned from an inter-dimensional vacation with a fiance in tow. She is a former Lemurian Priestess, The high and exalted, winnower of all thing arcane, holder of the pathway of of the unspoken gods and also know as Betty. She has taken up residence in a Green Giant cream style (sweet corn) can and has joined Rupert in his Hormel Chili (no beans) can on my computer desk. I wish them well. They have registered at Fortnum & Masons.  The wedding is scheduled for May but they are having difficulty rounding up human sacrifices and are calling for volunteers. The wedding, to which I have not been invited, will be at a sixth dimensional slug run shoe factory.

34RAY6n.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

Your getting as bad matherbating as some of the phringe conjectures looking for the magic ratios and information encoded in the pyramid.

Pyramid can hold 2,264,147.43lbs of wheat seed to try and plant 925,500 acres 2.44lb/acre when 30 lb/acre is the low estimate needed

Yes, but 2,264,147.43 = 26.43 and that is the year, 2643 that the dog deceivers shall return - being ridden by the Cat masters.

Meow

----------------------------------------------

More seriously the calculation show that if you want to replant AE farmland you need bulk storage, and a lot of it, and not overbuilt pyramids.

Edited by Hanslune
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29 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yes, but 2,264,147.43 = 26.43 and that is the year, 2643 that the dog deceivers shall return - being ridden by the Cat masters.

Meow

----------------------------------------------

More seriously the calculation show that if you want to replant AE farmland you need bulk storage, and a lot of it, and not overbuilt pyramids.

In Creighton's defense (I can't believe I am saying this). He has clearly made an assertion that it was the belief of the ancient Egyptians an extreme population nadir after a deluge would be the level from which these "recovery vaults" need replenish the kingdom. 

If the Walking Petri dishes of infectious disease, err European Explorers managed to reduce the indigenous American populations so much (some peer reviewed estimates put the loss at 90+%), what would a ten percent survival rate leave the ancient Egyptian population in either 12,500 bc or Khufu's time period. If you  slash the population that much then 16 pyramid vaults would most likely be enough to jump start the agriculture again.

Now to the first part of your reply. I have no doubt anyone evil enough to deceive a dog is under the control of cats or similar demonic entities or that the lazy felines may sit astride the loutish fools under their sway as if they are beasts of burden.

Edited by Jarocal
All Hail our Past Basset Masters, may their ears be ever long!
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26 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Oh and on happier news. Rupert has returned from an inter-dimensional vacation with a fiance in tow. She is a former Lemurian Priestess, The high and exalted, winnower of all thing arcane, holder of the pathway of of the unspoken gods and also know as Betty. She has taken up residence in a Green Giant cream style (sweet corn) can and has joined Rupert in his Hormel Chili (no beans) can on my computer desk. I wish them well. They have registered at Fortnum & Masons.  The wedding is scheduled for May but they are having difficulty rounding up human sacrifices and are calling for volunteers. The wedding, to which I have not been invited, will be at a sixth dimensional slug run shoe factory.

34RAY6n.jpg

I volunteer! I just want to be part of the wedding—depending on when the sacrifices take place (how much I end up seeing). There's only one caveat: you must be invited, to be the ring boy (or flower girl).

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1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

I did a dangerous thing and did some calculation and perhaps Harte our preeminent mathematician can verify.

So 1300 cubic meters - presuming we stuff every centimeter with wheat

1 cubic meter of wheat weighs 790 kilograms so that would be 1,027,000 kilograms of wheat. So how much wheat seed do you need to reseed say an acre?

Estimates go from 30-180 lbs per acre depending on the soil. We'll use the average of that estimate 105 lbs or 47.6272 kilograms per acre.

So how many acres of land did the AE have in production? Unknown to me, however the modern Egyptians have 37,450 sq.km or by 247.1054 acres per sq. km that is 9,254,097.2 acres.

So I will guess that the AE had 10% of what the moderns did in production. or 925,409 acres in production.

925,409 x 47.6272 kg's of seed equals 44,074,496 kg of wheat seed would be needed.

Well that would mean that one stuffed pyramid would contain 44,074,496 / 1,027,000 = .02330% of what would be needed to reseed the AE farmland. Hmmmmmmm

https://tradingeconomics.com/egypt/agricultural-land-percent-of-land-area-wb-data.html

You might actually need more wheat than that.  The wheat of earlier ages was smaller than our modern wheat and less productive.  They farmed enough wheat to be the major exporter of that grain in the ancient world.

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On 17/11/2017 at 6:51 AM, stereologist said:

 

What, hey just a minute are you guys sure that grain wasn't intended for some other purpose like beer or Ka of the Grain.

jmccr8

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17 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

What, hey just a minute are you guys sure that grain wasn't intended for some other purpose like beer or Ka of the Grain.

jmccr8

That's exactly what the grain was for.  After awhile, these physical offerings were replaced by voice and by written offerings.   Similar to the practice today of "Hell money." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_money

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7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Hmmm so the advanced ceramics turn to dust huh, oh wait clear evidence of their environmental view point. Anyone who has spent time in Egypt that doesn't consist of a trip centered on western style hotels, buses and prepared tourist sites will note that in the sand around them are ....shards, everywhere.

Well, yes.

But those shards are the newer models.

Harte

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5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

That's exactly what the grain was for.  After awhile, these physical offerings were replaced by voice and by written offerings.   Similar to the practice today of "Hell money." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_money

Pffft. "Voice offerings." They don't fill my belly. Give me the real thing any time.

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6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

You might actually need more wheat than that.  The wheat of earlier ages was smaller than our modern wheat and less productive.  They farmed enough wheat to be the major exporter of that grain in the ancient world.

Why would more be needed to service a tithe of the population? In a time where there was no mechanized harvest of wheat, a population drop in the magnitude Scott is asserting that the AE believed would happen with the deluge would not be fussed about exporting grain. Their focus would be to rebuild and feed themselves for that first growing season after the cataclysmic flood. Smaller localised catastrophes could be managed by the temple networks, this purported system was solely for the purpose of recovering after the apparently prophesied "end of the world" size deluge the Egyptian royalty believed in according to Scott.

Of all the issues I can think of regarding his well we will call it theory, needing a map to lay out the alleged Osiris locations and enough seed to resow all acre in production at the time immediately are not compelling arguments against. The lack of records for such an important undertaking would be far more concerning, as would the previously mentioned unfinished pyramid, 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

Why would more be needed to service a tithe of the population? In a time where there was no mechanized harvest of wheat, a population drop in the magnitude Scott is asserting that the AE believed would happen with the deluge would not be fussed about exporting grain. Their focus would be to rebuild and feed themselves for that first growing season after the cataclysmic flood. Smaller localised catastrophes could be managed by the temple networks, this purported system was solely for the purpose of recovering after the apparently prophesied "end of the world" size deluge the Egyptian royalty believed in according to Scott.

Of all the issues I can think of regarding his well we will call it theory, needing a map to lay out the alleged Osiris locations and enough seed to resow all acre in production at the time immediately are not compelling arguments against. The lack of records for such an important undertaking would be far more concerning, as would the previously mentioned unfinished pyramid, 

 

Yes we are discussing the equivalent of how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, although somewhat more modernized. The argument is trying to convince us that not only were there angels, but pins on which they did dance. The evidence of which is based on an opinion that it must be true because others have said they don't exist.

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3 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Yes we are discussing the equivalent of how many angels could dance on the head of a pin, although somewhat more modernized. The argument is trying to convince us that not only were there angels, but pins on which they did dance. The evidence of which is based on an opinion that it must be true because others have said they don't exist.

The dancers I prefer are not exactly angels.:rofl:

 

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11 hours ago, Jarocal said:

Why would more be needed to service a tithe of the population? In a time where there was no mechanized harvest of wheat, a population drop in the magnitude Scott is asserting that the AE believed would happen with the deluge would not be fussed about exporting grain. Their focus would be to rebuild and feed themselves for that first growing season after the cataclysmic flood. Smaller localised catastrophes could be managed by the temple networks, this purported system was solely for the purpose of recovering after the apparently prophesied "end of the world" size deluge the Egyptian royalty believed in according to Scott.

Of all the issues I can think of regarding his well we will call it theory, needing a map to lay out the alleged Osiris locations and enough seed to resow all acre in production at the time immediately are not compelling arguments against. The lack of records for such an important undertaking would be far more concerning, as would the previously mentioned unfinished pyramid, 

 

I was simply responding to the metrics used, not advocating anything.  The calculation gave the amount of wheat needed for the population and I was pointing out that they would actually need more because of farming practices and crop loss, etc.

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20 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Good list Kenemet but I would add why did they bunch them all up? Wouldn't it have been better to spread them out and what about the main agricultural area in the delta - none? Really?

This is a good point.  I believe that the export wheat all came from the Delta area; the rest of the country did not produce nearly that quantity of wheat.  And, of course, the suggested pyramids are not near the best farmlands or even convenient for Nile area farmlands.  Or even for Lower Egypt.  

The pharaohs did know how to manage distribution and what to send where.  Their temple systems took in grain and other items as part of a tax; these were redistributed in flood times so that the people did not starve and leave the lands.  And everyone worked in the temples at least once each year and received food and cloth as their payment for their work.

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17 hours ago, Harte said:

Well, yes.

But those shards are the newer models.

Harte

I came across what looked like shards of early pottery as we were strolling around the Bent Pyramid... the entire field was littered on the surface with these fragments and no doubt if we'd dug (not likely, as we were under the watchful eye of soldiers), we'd have found larger pieces and still more stuff.

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