Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[Jarocal]

19 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I was simply responding to the metrics used, not advocating anything.  The calculation gave the amount of wheat needed for the population and I was pointing out that they would actually need more because of farming practices and crop loss, etc.

While the kernels and yields for cereal grains were lesser in antiquity, one has also to look at the methodology for harvest and preparation. Shocking cereal crops at scything and allowing an extended drying period before harvest or allowing the drying to occur naturally while rooted before gleaning allies enzymatic changes in the seed that do not occur with modern harvest/drying methods. These changes alter the nutritional profile in a similar manner that pastured(not free range) eggs differ from cafo agribusiness eggs today. Food preparation methods also affect how much nutrition the human body derives from the crops also. Alas, I am rambling far astray the topic though I find food very delicious interesting.

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, Jarocal said:

While the kernels and yields for cereal grains were lesser in antiquity, one has also to look at the methodology for harvest and preparation. Shocking cereal crops at scything and allowing an extended drying period before harvest or allowing the drying to occur naturally while rooted before gleaning allies enzymatic changes in the seed that do not occur with modern harvest/drying methods. These changes alter the nutritional profile in a similar manner that pastured(not free range) eggs differ from cafo agribusiness eggs today. Food preparation methods also affect how much nutrition the human body derives from the crops also. Alas, I am rambling far astray the topic though I find food very delicious interesting.

That's okay. Food is good to eat, especially good food. Some food is of course to be avoided, such as Incan spit-beer.

[kmt_sesh]

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I came across what looked like shards of early pottery as we were strolling around the Bent Pyramid... the entire field was littered on the surface with these fragments and no doubt if we'd dug (not likely, as we were under the watchful eye of soldiers), we'd have found larger pieces and still more stuff.

A friend of mine was in a larger group on a tour of Egypt, and their tour van had broken down as they were at the Red Pyramid. They called for another and it came right away—but broke down before it could arrive. So they settled in to wait. My friend. Mary Jo, sat down on some tumbled masonry in the shade of the pyramid. She was hungry so she cracked open a candy bar. Out of nowhere a legion of feral dogs popped up and surrounded her. She couldn't move and was too afraid to do anything. Turns out they just wanted a treat and did nothing threatening. But the weird thing is, no one in the group had noticed a single dog in the area until Mary Jo tore open that candy bar.

[Hanslune]

5 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

A friend of mine was in a larger group on a tour of Egypt, and their tour van had broken down as they were at the Red Pyramid. They called for another and it came right away—but broke down before it could arrive. So they settled in to wait. My friend. Mary Jo, sat down on some tumbled masonry in the shade of the pyramid. She was hungry so she cracked open a candy bar. Out of nowhere a legion of feral dogs popped up and surrounded her. She couldn't move and was too afraid to do anything. Turns out they just wanted a treat and did nothing threatening. But the weird thing is, no one in the group had noticed a single dog in the area until Mary Jo tore open that candy bar.

In a lot of Arab countries feral dogs are shot on sight. No so much Egypt but the dudes would have learned to keep out the sight normally. In one of my jobs over there I had a great Filipino ex army sergeant whose job was to use a very outdated rifle to shoot canines on our various campuses.

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, Jarocal said:

While the kernels and yields for cereal grains were lesser in antiquity, one has also to look at the methodology for harvest and preparation. Shocking cereal crops at scything and allowing an extended drying period before harvest or allowing the drying to occur naturally while rooted before gleaning allies enzymatic changes in the seed that do not occur with modern harvest/drying methods. These changes alter the nutritional profile in a similar manner that pastured(not free range) eggs differ from cafo agribusiness eggs today. Food preparation methods also affect how much nutrition the human body derives from the crops also. Alas, I am rambling far astray the topic though I find food very delicious interesting.

Fascinating, and thanks for the added information!

My original point was that the wheat was smaller in size (and a smaller number of seeds per seed head) back in those days.  And yes, processing with stone grinders sure affected teeth and diet in those days!  All that grit was good for chickens... not so much for teeth.

[Hanslune]

6 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Fascinating, and thanks for the added information!

My original point was that the wheat was smaller in size (and a smaller number of seeds per seed head) back in those days.  And yes, processing with stone grinders sure affected teeth and diet in those days!  All that grit was good for chickens... not so much for teeth.

Which speaks volumes about 'advanced' civilizations that allow their teeth to be worn down - to include the elite.

[kmt_sesh]

51 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

In a lot of Arab countries feral dogs are shot on sight. No so much Egypt but the dudes would have learned to keep out the sight normally. In one of my jobs over there I had a great Filipino ex army sergeant whose job was to use a very outdated rifle to shoot canines on our various campuses.

LOL A black-powder musket? I've shot those before. The dog would be likely to die of old age before you could shoot it.

[kmt_sesh]

49 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Fascinating, and thanks for the added information!

My original point was that the wheat was smaller in size (and a smaller number of seeds per seed head) back in those days.  And yes, processing with stone grinders sure affected teeth and diet in those days!  All that grit was good for chickens... not so much for teeth.

Well, it was good for the chickens' digestion but not for their teeth. 

[jmccr8]

16 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Well, it was good for the chickens' digestion but not for their teeth. 

Really dried and chapped their lips too.

jmccr8

[Hanslune]

39 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

LOL A black-powder musket? I've shot those before. The dog would be likely to die of old age before you could shoot it.

1950's Long .22 caliber (5.6mm) rim fire European weapons of various brands, some fired low velocity bullets so they wouldn't travel around a lot. Cats were of course okay as Muhammad's daughter had had a cat!

Edited December 4, 2017 by Hanslune

[Jarocal]

8 hours ago, Hanslune said:

1950's Long .22 caliber (5.6mm) rim fire European weapons of various brands, some fired low velocity bullets so they wouldn't travel around a lot. Cats were of course okay as Muhammad's daughter had had a cat!

Subsonic 22's are also quiet, a lot quieter than a 5.56 NATO or 7.62 cartridge. They work exceedingly well on feral cats.

[Scott Creighton]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:20 PM, Kenemet said:

 

Continuing...

Kenemet: It sounds like you haven't been in the GP.  Yes, hauling a body up or down would be difficult but not impossible.  The coffins of that era were simply oblong boxes (not the anthropoid coffins we associate with mummies, thanks to Tut) and with the sarcophagus already in place, it's possible to pull one upslope and then move it into the sarcophagus. 

SC: Ergo, a lot easier with a pot or sack of grain.

Kenemet: And where are you getting the"passages covered with vast quantities of grain" in Djoser's pyramid from?  Is this another medieval source?  Can you link something that's not your writing that mentions this?

SC: Already.posted

Kenemet: Are you trying to say that every single pyramid in Egypt was built as some sort of mysterious "recovery vault". 

SC: No. That is NOT what I am saying. I am saying that the FIRST SIXTEEN or so pyramids, the giant pyramids, were constructed as Recovery Vaults as per Plutarch’s  myth of Osiris and his body being cut into 14 (Diodorus gives 16) pieces and these were scattered across the land. The myth tells us also that the body of Osiris was drowned. I suggest this ‘myth’ is an allegorical story whereby these first 16 pyramids were considered as the ‘body of Osiris’. Much later, these first 16 (or so) pyramids would take on a religious significance to later AEs in the dynastic period. When they were once the instrument of rebirth for the kingdom (after the flood of Thoth had abated), they would now be revbered as the means through which the king himself could be reborn/rejuvenated. And so much smaller pyramids would be built in later times as the pyramid was now regarded as the ‘instrument of rebirth’ but now for the king himself..

But STILL this does not mean that these later, smaller pyramid were regarded as or even used as the king’s tomb. Some might have (stupidly) used them as a tomb but that is not what the Pyramid Texts tell us. In the PTs we are told that "the king is the pyramid… in his name of Osiris.”

Osiris is the pyramid... the construction is Osiris. 

Quite literally. 

The PTs say also that the pyramid is the 'Ka of the king'. Which, again, is perfectly true when you understand the fundamental point the PTs tell us - the pyramid is Osiris N. ergo, the Ka is the 'double' of the King.

In other words - the 16 dismembered body parts of Osiris (i.e. the first 16 completed pyramids) represent the Ka Double of the king himself. This is to say that the Pyramid is not the king's actual tomb (that will probably be deep underground somewhere closeby - "be not far from it [the Ka Double] in it's name of pyramid"). 

In short - the pyramids representing the 'body of Osiris' actually represent the Ka Double for the king. Which explains why all of the so-called sarcophagi in these pyramids were also found devoid of an in-situ mummified king - the box was a place for the KA within the 'Osiris body' (initially the first 16 pyramids but this number would, naturally, increase as the number of pyramids - Osiris body parts - were built). 

Kenemet: We know that they had certain traditions ("The Feast of the Beautiful Valley", the celebration of Osiris at Abydos) that were held for over a thousand years (and closer to 3,000 years. 

SC: As indeed they should. They also had the Osirian Resurrection Festival of Khoaik whereby they would create small wood boxes ((like mini sarcophagi) made of wood or fired pottery or even stone. Into this they would place earth, scatter some grain on top, place it in the ground and place a large rock symbolising the Pyramid (i.e. Osiris) on top – rebirth through the agency of the Osiris Pyramid. I contend that this ceremony  was commemorating the original purpose of the first pyramids as Recovery Vaults and is why Belzoni in 1818 found the stone box in G2 was filled with earth and some bull bones (the bull bones symbolising the fecundity of the earth). The later dynasties absolutely KNEW what the stone boxes in these first pyramids contained. It wasn’t the body of any king. These boxes contained earth and, as stated, is why people in later dynasties commemorated that fact with their own ceremonial boxes of earth.

Sometimes they would create small mud effigies of Osiris. They would create a hollow in the Osiris mud effigy and into this hollow they would place grain. There we have an Osiris effigy (of mud) filled with grain – the body of Osiris filled with grain. Just as the first 16 pyramids were considered the (dismembered) body of Osiris would have been filled with grain and why, in fact, we have found an abundance of such in the passages and galleries below the Step Pyramid.

Kenemet: If these were "recovery vaults"

* why didn't they finish all of them?

SC: There could be any number of reasons why some recovery vaults were not completed.  But from the tomb theory perspective, why did they finish the Bent Pyramid way beyond its obvious point of failure? Why would you do that for a ‘tomb’ you never planned to use? Why build three other ‘tombs’? Why build at least two of them concurrently? Certainly all of these questions can easily be answered with the RVT – not so much with the tomb theory.

Kenemet: * why didn't they record the donations there (since pharaohs recorded things like this)?

SC: They may well have done that for granaries – pyramids are NOT granaries. Some accounts do tell us that there was writing on the casing stones of the pyramids. Perhaps they did write everything that was contained therein along with whatever else they wished people to know.

Kenemet: * why didn't the kings make proclamations to have them continually guarded as they had guards over the most valuable things in the land?

SC: They might want to do that for a granary or a tomb. These were neither. These were entirely sealed pyramid recovery vaults. Grain and tools are hardly valuable when there is plenty. Only in times of crisis (a natural disaster like an unprecedented deluge for example) when these items are in short supply does the cache in the pyramid Recovery Vaults become valuable. But not before then.

Kenemet: * why were there no regular inventories (as there are in other storage areas) to make sure nobody had absconded with stuff?

SC: See above.

Kenemet: * If this was to be used to "save the country" why didn't they replace and replenish items when the pyramids were robbed?

SC: You seem t o be talking entirely from a dynastic period perspective. These pyramids, imv, pre-dated this period. By the time of the dynastic period the pyramid was no longer an ‘instrument of rebirth’ for the kingdom but was now an instrument of rebirth for the king (although only, imv, as his Ka Double – he wouldn’t actually have been buried there).

Kenemet: * why didn't they repair them?   If they had a tradition that "this will save the country" then nomarchs, princes, and kings would all have worked hard to keep the structures in good repair (as they did with the national temples) and to donate to them and make sure that the contents were sound?

SC: I certainly believe that is what Khufu was doing in the 4^th dynasty. There is a long tradition of AEs repairing their ancient monuments.

Kenemet: Why didn't they put them on higher nearby ground? 

SC: I have answered this already. Building on ground that is too high introduces serious logistical problems in getting resources up there to actually build the pyramids. The task would have been difficult enough building 60m above sea-level let alone 100+ metres above.

Kenemet: Some of the ones you identify as "Osiris" aren't very clearly seen. 

SC: Pyramids are quite easily spotted from a great distance on the natural landscape.

Kenemet: And with 250 (or more) pyramids in Egypt, how would anyone know which of the mysterious pyramids (including unfinished ones) was the right one to check?

SC:  ALL of the first 16 pyramids would be the right ones to check. There would have only been 16 (or so) completed pyramids “to check” at this time.  All of these 16 pyramids were ALL part of the recovery plan. Later pyramids not so much – these were built for religious purposes whereas the original 16 were perfunctory although, as I said elsewhere, there does appear to have been a deep chthonic ritual attached to them relating to the rebirth and fecundity of the earth.

Kenemet: I should have been clearer.   in regards to the unfinished pyramids, how would anyone know they were supposed to be part of a "recovery system" if they're buried under lots of sand.  

SC: Who knows. You check it anyway. Nothing there – move onto the next one you can see poking into the sky in the distance.

Kenemet: And finally, you're basing a lot of information on Strabo while conveniently ignoring that both he and Diodorus (whom you also quote) as well as Pliny and others identified the pyramids as kings' tombs.  Josephus seems to be the only one calling them a storehouse of any sort.

SC: That these first 16 pyramids and pyramids in general became associated with burial/tombs is to be expected in later times. Because they DID become associated with the burial of the king ie. the instrument of rebirth (now) of the king. The collective pyramids, in a general sense, were BOTH. If you read my article Hall of the Ancestors you will see that the Coptic-Egyptian texts tell us that Surid built the pyramids to secure all that would be needed to ‘reboot’ the kingdom after the flood had abated but ALSO to safeguard the bodies of the ancestors. (Interesting that one interpretations of the word ‘Pyramid’ ‘m r’ is ‘a heap of dead bodies’ – see Hannig Vol. 1 p. 344). So, in this sense at least, you could consider the pyramid as serving both as a ‘recovery vault’ AND as a ‘tomb’.

But as I have said above, I do not think the later pyramids actually served as the physical tomb of the king but rather was a structure built (as a part of the body of Osiris) to represent the king's Ka Double’ 

SC

[Windowpane]

2 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

...

I suggest this ‘myth’ is an allegorical story whereby these first 16 pyramids were considered as the ‘body of Osiris’. The myth tells us also that the body of Osiris was drowned. I suggest this ‘myth’ is an allegorical story whereby these first 16 pyramids were considered as the ‘body of Osiris’.

 

 

Quote

There is ... an allusion to the death of the god by drowning near Memphis.  But this connection of Osiris with water is only developed in the later period when it seems to be regarded as a blessed fate to drown in the Nile ... (George Hart: A Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses, 155-6.)

 

But, if this drowning story comes only from the late period, how can it have pre-dated these sixteen pyramids?

Edited December 4, 2017 by Windowpane

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

SC: Ergo, a lot easier with a pot or sack of grain.

 

Pots? You've said they come from a time where is no pottery.........lol

You really need to spend some time figuring out what weird claims you are making and then determine how they contradict one another.

[Scott Creighton]

1 hour ago, Windowpane said:

But, if this drowning story comes only from the late period, how can it have pre-dated these sixteen pyramids?

The PTs, the oldest religious texts we have, imv, present to us allegorical information about a great inundation that overwhelmed Egypt in antiquity (or, at least, that the AEs believed would overwhelm them). Yes, they are regarded today as religious texts, incantations and spells but throughout them we can glimpse an underlying theme, a core truth  –  one of the hope for recovery, of rebirth, from a devastating flood.

The PTs tell us that the Duat (Dwat) is a watery realm; the unseen or 'hidden land'; the 'Underworld' which is traversed by boat. Intriguingly, the later Coffin Texts tell us that the duat came about during a time of chaos, before Horus had defeated Seth. 

So here it is possible to make sense of the Duat as the floodwaters that drowned the entire country (the same flood that would drown the 16-part pyramid ‘body of Osiris’). The former land where people lived their lives is now – in the depths of the water - a dark, 'hidden land' an 'Underworld'. The only aspects that remain above the floodwaters (i.e. remain above the Duat) are the topmost parts of the pyramids. These would have appeared as small islands, rising to a peak. 

Let us consider the so-called name of the Great Pyramid – ‘Akhet Khufu’ believed to mean something like ‘Horizon of Khufu’ of ‘Spirit of Khufu’. But there's a possible other meaning for this set of signs.

The Crested Isbis is symbolic of the AE god, Thoth, the harbinger and messenger of the flood. The ibis gives the phonetic Ax (akh) sound and with the small loaf of bread (the phonetic ‘t’) we have Akhet. The crested ibis (with other signs) can also mean ‘Flood’. The rectangular sign (below the loaf) is the sign for ‘pool’ (with the pyramid perhaps also rising from a ‘pool’ or 'island'). Clearly then this set of signs can be interpreted, with the pyramid recovery vault determinative, as the Flood of Thoth. Given that Khufu means ‘protects’ or ‘to protect’ thus the name of the Great Pyramid (or perhaps even the wider Giza pyramid complex) as ‘Protector [from the] Flood of Thoth’. The pyramid as a Recovery Vault determinative affirms this idea.

Emerging from this ‘pool’ or ‘island’ is the pyramid; the pyramid reaching to the sky. 

The PTs tell us "…the duat gives birth to Osiris... he emerges from the duat…". Which, if we consider the first 16 or so pyramids as being the 'body of Osiris' then it makes perfect sense since, as the floodwaters recede, the pyramids would emerge from the floodwaters; from the duat - the duat giving birth to Osiris – Osiris emerging from the duat: 

The 'pyramid body' of Osiris emerges from the Duat

The PTs further tell us that the body of Osiris is located in a secret chamber in the uttermost depths of the duat and that Osiris is the akhet from which Re emerges. They further tell us that Re is reborn in a mystical union with Osiris and that Re’s passage each night is a journey through the Duat to reach the akhet i.e. to reach the pyramid 'body of Osiris'. 

And so - if we consider the first pyramids as the symbolic 'body of Osiris' then each day we are presented with this union between Osiris (his pyramid body) and the Re (the sun god) thus: 

The "mystical union" of the (pyramid body of) Osiris and the sun god, Re. 

SC

Edited December 4, 2017 by Scott Creighton

[jmccr8]

Scott,

The laws of probabilities do not support the conclusion that a person could be wrong all of the time, at this point I'm starting to feel like taking bets to see if you break the odds.

jmccr8

Edited December 4, 2017 by jmccr8
spelling

[Kenemet]

11 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Let us consider the so-called name of the Great Pyramid – ‘Akhet Khufu’ believed to mean something like ‘Horizon of Khufu’ of ‘Spirit of Khufu’. But there's a possible other meaning for this set of signs.

The Crested Isbis is symbolic of the AE god, Thoth, the harbinger and messenger of the flood. The ibis gives the phonetic Ax (akh) sound and with the small loaf of bread (the phonetic ‘t’) we have Akhet. The crested ibis (with other signs) can also mean ‘Flood’. The rectangular sign (below the loaf) is the sign for ‘pool’ (with the pyramid perhaps also rising from a ‘pool’ or 'island'). Clearly then this set of signs can be interpreted, with the pyramid recovery vault determinative, as the Flood of Thoth. Given that Khufu means ‘protects’ or ‘to protect’ thus the name of the Great Pyramid (or perhaps even the wider Giza pyramid complex) as ‘Protector [from the] Flood of Thoth’. The pyramid as a Recovery Vault determinative affirms this idea.

I see that you don't read hieroglyphs.  

The above (Is it a copy of something?  What's the source?) seems to be part of a longer statement  ("the good god, lord of everything" is repeated twice). 

What you're trying to turn into "recovery vault" are signs that show up elsewhere and it's clear that your meaning is incorrect.  Furthermore, the wheel (that you ignore and is between the bird and the pyramid) means town... as is shown in thousands of examples.  What it says is "Great God Khufu, Great god, Golden Horus, pyramid town of Aketen"  (Kmt_Sesh, you've been studying hieroglyphs longer.. please correct.)  The fact that the Golden Horus name is incorrect  and that Khufu's abbreviated name is shown also suggests this is from a later piece... perhaps New Kingdom.

The pyramid is not the determinative.  It's a word.  The wheel is the determinative, as is shown in hundreds of examples.

[Scott Creighton]

6 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I see that you don't read hieroglyphs.  

The above (Is it a copy of something?  What's the source?) seems to be part of a longer statement  ("the good god, lord of everything" is repeated twice). 

What you're trying to turn into "recovery vault" are signs that show up elsewhere and it's clear that your meaning is incorrect.  Furthermore, the wheel (that you ignore and is between the bird and the pyramid) means town... as is shown in thousands of examples.  What it says is "Great God Khufu, Great god, Golden Horus, pyramid town of Aketen"  (Kmt_Sesh, you've been studying hieroglyphs longer.. please correct.)  The fact that the Golden Horus name is incorrect  and that Khufu's abbreviated name is shown also suggests this is from a later piece... perhaps New Kingdom.

The pyramid is not the determinative.  It's a word.  The wheel is the determinative, as is shown in hundreds of examples.

"Pyramid town akhet khufu" - something like that. I've discussed it many times before, if you care to look. The pyramid here is also a determinative (along with the 'town' sign).

SC

[Windowpane]

53 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

... 

The above (Is it a copy of something?  What's the source?) seems to be part of a longer statement  ("the good god, lord of everything" is repeated twice). 

The image is apparently a copy of a 4th Dynasty cylinder seal (scroll down): although no more specific citation is provided.

[mstower]

13 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

The image is apparently a copy of a 4th Dynasty cylinder seal (scroll down): although no more specific citation is provided.

http://petriecat.museums.ucl.ac.uk/dispatcher.aspx?action=search&database=ChoiceUCLPC&search=accession_number= 'UC11099'&limit=10&SRT0=&TYP0=&SEQ0=&position=1

M.

[mstower]

2 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

 Let us consider the so-called name of the Great Pyramid – ‘Akhet Khufu’ believed to mean something like ‘Horizon of Khufu’ of ‘Spirit of Khufu’. . . .

No, it is not believed to mean anything like ‘Spirit of Khufu’.  You don’t know your 3ḫ from your 3ḫt, evidently.

2 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

 . . . But there's a possible other meaning for this set of signs.

Yes, Creighton.  The possible other meaning is ‘Tomb of Khufu’.

Cue yet more of his silly idio-Egyptology:

2 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

The Crested Isbis is symbolic of the AE god, Thoth, the harbinger and messenger of the flood. The ibis gives the phonetic Ax (akh) sound and with the small loaf of bread (the phonetic ‘t’) we have Akhet. The crested ibis (with other signs) can also mean ‘Flood’. The rectangular sign (below the loaf) is the sign for ‘pool’ (with the pyramid perhaps also rising from a ‘pool’ or 'island'). Clearly then this set of signs can be interpreted, with the pyramid recovery vault determinative, as the Flood of Thoth. Given that Khufu means ‘protects’ or ‘to protect’ thus the name of the Great Pyramid (or perhaps even the wider Giza pyramid complex) as ‘Protector [from the] Flood of Thoth’. The pyramid as a Recovery Vault determinative affirms this idea.

He may be forgiven for having been bamboozled by that rectangular sign.  We know from other and better-carved examples that in this case it is a variant of N18, which appears canonically with rounded ends.  It serves as a determinative in the writing of 3ḫt, ‘horizon’ and may appear as a logogram with this meaning (Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar).

I like especially “The crested ibis (with other signs) can also mean ‘Flood’.”

M.

Edited December 4, 2017 by mstower
to add something.

[Windowpane]

1 hour ago, mstower said:

http://petriecat.museums.ucl.ac.uk/dispatcher.aspx?action=search&database=ChoiceUCLPC&search=accession_number= 'UC11099'&limit=10&SRT0=&TYP0=&SEQ0=&position=1

 

Quote

"Perhaps modern."

Oh dear ...

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, mstower said:

I like especially “The crested ibis (with other signs) can also mean ‘Flood’.”

M.

Lovely stuff

........and that translation comes from where? How long has he been promoting this idea?

[mstower]

6 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Lovely stuff

........and that translation comes from where? How long has he been promoting this idea?

It comes from his looking at a dictionary entry and misunderstanding what he sees.  One of the words (there are several) meaning ‘flood’ is w3ḫ.  It has the syllable 3ḫ in it.  Creighton imagines that this is significant.

No idea how long.

M.

[Kenemet]

On 11/23/2017 at 4:18 AM, Scott Creighton said:

I have been saying that the 'Pyramid Texts tell us "...the pyramid is Osiris... the construction [of the pyramids] is Osiris...". In Plutarch's Moralia the myth' of Isis and Osiris (as interpreted by Babbitt) informs us that the body of Osiris was drowned and that it was cut into 14 pieces (Diodorus and others say 16 pieces). Later historians give an even higher number (which is perfectly understandable since, as the dynasties passed, more and more pyramid 'body parts of Osiris' were built - see your map above). 

So, in terms of the Recovery Vault proposition, I am dealing only with the first 16 completed pyramids built by the AEs (19 actually since from the first to the last of the completed structures there were three that were never completed). So, for the avoidance of any confusion, these first 16/19 pyramids include only those pyramids from Abu Roash (the tip of the Atef crown) and Meidum (the feet). The map of the pyramid sites you presented above has little relevance to the proposition I am making.

Now, I am not saying either that the locations of these pyramids present a point-for-point perfect match but the general outline IS there. But regardless of whether this pyramid-Osiris correlation was intended or not, the PTs DO tell us the pyramid is the body of Osiris and that this 'body' (i.e. the 16 pyramid body) was drowned.

And neither am I saying the builders designed this 'Osiris plan'. It stands to reason that the construction locations of these 16 or so pyramids would have been determined first and foremost by the proximity of good limestone quarries. The locations of these are, naturally, entirely random. That a random distribution of quarry sites could form a stick-man outline of Osiris is highly unlikely. This is to say that the AE builders of these 16 pyramids did not commence their pyramid-building project with this Osiris figurine as the template for the location/distribution of these pyramids. Rather, the Osiris figurine arose much later from the scattered arrangement of these first pyramids. This is not unlike star asterisms. The stars are randomly scattered across our heavens and have been there long before mankind ever existed. When man came along we decided to join these random points of light into recognisable human or animal forms. The point I am making is that we created these recognisable human/animal forms long after the stars were born. 

The AEs perhaps long regarded the first 16 or so pyramids of ancient Egypt as the dismembered body of Osiris. One day, perhaps even as late as the 19th dynasty, someone may have had the idea of making an Osiris figurine based upon the distribution of those first, giant pyramids, the first pyramid 'body parts' of Osiris. And perhaps that is the reason today why I am able to 'reverse-engineer' this figurine and create this Osiris 'asterism' from those 16 pyramid locations. And, as I said above, this is why later historians give a higher figure for the Osiris dismembered body parts because by then there were more pyramds. More pyramids = more dismembered body parts of Osiris.

Returning to the Pyramid Texts portion of the discussion...

Firstly, these are not the first sixteen or thirteen completed pyramids (as you claim above.)  There are not sixteen or thirteen pyramid locations in the figure you supplied.  There are 11, and you counted them.  Of the eleven above, three are unfinished (and would have been hidden by sand)... therefore there's only eight.  

Eight (or even eleven) is not the same as sixteen or thirteen.  With eight points, pareidolia is very easy.  Two hundred points is a different matter.

Re "this pyramid"... the texts say "and his work" in at least two cases and it appears as you have noted in only two pyramids.  Not elsewhere.  Furthermore, the pyramids that say "this pyramid is Osiris" are not on your diagram.

In every other instance, "Osiris" refers to the king (and occasionally to his works) by name... and that occurs over a hundred times.  If they meant the building to be "Osiris" they would have said so consistently.  And this is the big weakness - throughout the history of Egypt, the dead king (and later the deceased people) are always referred to as "The Osiris (and their name.)"  On a rare occasion, a beloved animal is also designated an Osiris (Ta-Miaut is the one I know of but I'm prepared to find out that there are others.  The pyramids themselves are named - but none bears a name that includes Osiris.  

Finally, your timeline is inconsistent

You said earlier when we discussed the structure of the passageways and rooms that it took many tries for the Egyptians to get it right and implied that the Great Pyramid was the basic floor plan.  That meant that they knew what they were supposed to do and the GP existed before the Old Kingdom tombs and that in all the finished and unfinished pyramids they were trying to replicate the GP.

BUT...

If the GP is older and was designed as a "recovery vault" then why didn't they know exactly how to build the interior and exterior of these pyramids (the plans are not very complex)?  If they couldn't get in, why would they think it was a "recovery vault"?  If they could get in, why  didn't they scale down these and put them in all the major nome capitals (which would be the place for recovery to start.)  And finally, why would they put "recovery vaults" in cities that were NOT the nome capitals - the places where the bulk of the population and administration lived?  They planned other national recovery efforts.  Why did they suddenly have a huge logistical error in planning "recovery storehouses" for just this one thing?