Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[cormac mac airt]

58 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

I can't, usually SC material is greatly superior to all other worldly evidence. It uses absolutely authentic up to date research, linked with explanation of where it came from allied with a clear indication of his expertise in the subject manner. and cites where his material has been confirmed and agreed with by noted experts in the various fields..................................................................................................................

I’m still in stitches at his use of the Wolfli, et al. ASSUMPTION, which is lacking in scientific support, as if it were a fact. It’s not and never has been. Also the existance of Magnetic Excursion events that correlate well with each other, directly before and after the Wolfli, et al. claimed event without showing any support or relationships with said claimed event. His idea isn’t science, it’s science fiction.

cormac

[Kenemet]

On 12/4/2017 at 6:46 AM, Scott Creighton said:

SC: That these first 16 pyramids and pyramids in general became associated with burial/tombs is to be expected in later times. Because they DID become associated with the burial of the king ie. the instrument of rebirth (now) of the king. The collective pyramids, in a general sense, were BOTH. If you read my article Hall of the Ancestors you will see that the Coptic-Egyptian texts tell us that Surid built the pyramids to secure all that would be needed to ‘reboot’ the kingdom after the flood had abated but ALSO to safeguard the bodies of the ancestors. (Interesting that one interpretations of the word ‘Pyramid’ ‘m r’ is ‘a heap of dead bodies’ – see Hannig Vol. 1 p. 344). So, in this sense at least, you could consider the pyramid as serving both as a ‘recovery vault’ AND as a ‘tomb’.

But as I have said above, I do not think the later pyramids actually served as the physical tomb of the king but rather was a structure built (as a part of the body of Osiris) to represent the king's Ka Double’ 

And continuing...

I am completely confused about your timeline. 

Now... let me add that I generally do not go to "click here to read what I wrote."  Too often it's used to drive people to the OP's site which also gives them traffic and money in advertising and links to books that they're advertising (many times they even try to hide that it's their site.)  That's manipulative, frankly.  I'm not accusing you, simply explaining why I didn't click to read.  Surely a writer of your stripe can explain in a few words?

In any case, back to the timeline.  What I *think* I extracted out of all this is that you believe...

* about 10,000 BC (?)  the Great Pyramid was built

* Sometime about 3000 BC the Egyptians get into the GP and decide to make recovery vaults

* About the time of Sneferu they finally get the floor plan right (400 years to learn to stack bricks into a pointy shape?)

* They then build (and fail to build) a number of recovery vaults each with the name of the king.  (I'm confused about whether you think they stop with 13 or 16 or if you think all mumpty-hundred pyramids in the land are all recovery vaults but only 13 or 16 of them are what you focus on)

* Sometime around the New Kingdom, someone decides these form the shape of Osiris and... uh... do nothing about it other than perhaps draw it?

 

The above seems so incredibly lame.  Can you fill in the parts and give the complete picture (and no "link to what I wrote elsewhere" - I don't want a dissertation.  Just the basics will do for now.)

Edited December 7, 2017 by Kenemet

[Kenemet]

On 12/5/2017 at 5:07 AM, Scott Creighton said:

 

SC: See my interpretation above.  I showed in an earlier post how the term ‘Akhet Khufu’ is related to a pool (of water) with the rectangular sign below the loaf sign:

You can clearly see the double ellipse sign (the ‘two lands’) on both sides of the inscription. As you can see, this is clearly differentiated from the rectangle sign having rounded edges as opposed to straight edges. We see this in other renderings of this inscription:

(Note: I have inverted the top image for easier comparison with the image below it). The above two images appear to have been rendered by two different cylinder seals - some of the signs have been rendered different as is the spatial distances between signs.. As you can see, the rectangle sign in both impressions, has been rendered with straight edges and the ellipses all with rounded edges. Note also that the pyramid also sits atop a rectangle sign i.e. the pyramid rises out of water. There can be little doubt that the rectangle sign in this inscription is the logogram for ‘pool’ of water (Gardiner’s N37). I think the meaning here is perfectly clear – these signs are describing another form of the word ‘flood’ i.e.  the Great Inundation of Thoth witht he pyramid (as Recovery Vault) a valid determinative in this context.

SC

 

First: Wrong Bird - That's not the sign for Thoth.  His name is spelled a number of different ways; when his emblem, the ibis, is used it's always the regular ibis and is either on a standard or next tot he determinative that means "deity."  I'm certain of this because he's one of my favorite deities. 

What you are showing is the crested ibis. 

Second: Flood of Thoth - I have not found any mention in Middle Kingdom or earleir records of a "flood of Thoth."  Perhaps you can direct me to an ancient Egyptian source from the Middle Kingdom or earlier that talks about this?

Third: nothos "hapax legomenon"  - your interpretations don't make sense.  All those symbols are used somewhere else.  They don't change meaning when someone puts them on a cylinder seal or puts them on the wall of a temple or a tomb.  They appear on other walls and other seals and don't change meaning there.

Fourth: pyramid symbol - If the pyramid(s) were already there, then there should be documentary (written) evidence of it.  Perhaps you can direct me to an image showing that the Egyptians used a pyramid symbol before the Third Dynasty?  We know of sphinxes dating to the Second Dynasty, so this gives us confidence in a sphinx dated to the fourth dynasty.  So far, I don't see any use of the pyramid symbol before the time of Khufu - which implies that this is a new thing for them. 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Kenemet

[Kenemet]

On 12/4/2017 at 6:46 AM, Scott Creighton said:

Kenemet: Some of the ones you identify as "Osiris" aren't very clearly seen. 

SC: Pyramids are quite easily spotted from a great distance on the natural landscape.

Kenemet: And with 250 (or more) pyramids in Egypt, how would anyone know which of the mysterious pyramids (including unfinished ones) was the right one to check?

SC:  ALL of the first 16 pyramids would be the right ones to check. There would have only been 16 (or so) completed pyramids “to check” at this time.  All of these 16 pyramids were ALL part of the recovery plan. Later pyramids not so much – these were built for religious purposes whereas the original 16 were perfunctory although, as I said elsewhere, there does appear to have been a deep chthonic ritual attached to them relating to the rebirth and fecundity of the earth.

You do know, don't you, that these photos show the site after excavation by archaeologists, right?  And that they were covered with sand/dirt before?

[kmt_sesh]

I concur with the assessment of others: the crested ibis in Axt xwfw is not Thoth. The crested ibis, Ax, is Gardiner's G25:

However, when Thoth is indicated, he is shown as either a regular ibis (G26a), or as a regular ibis perched atop a standard (G26):

Source of posted graphics

I would also like to see a source, especially from the older periods, from which Scott drew "Flood of Thoth." I know of no such derivation in hieroglyphs. The deduction he formed from his earlier graphics for the flood season and "Flood of Thoth" seem to be of his own design, and are not linguistically supported, In point of fact, a large number of ancient Egyptian words contain the sounds "kh" and "t," both which were very common in the language.

[John Winston]

Hey Hans! that was something other than casualities you have just sorted out.I really appreciate that

 

[Scott Creighton]

6 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

I concur with the assessment of others: the crested ibis in Axt xwfw is not Thoth. The crested ibis, Ax, is Gardiner's G25:

However, when Thoth is indicated, he is shown as either a regular ibis (G26a), or as a regular ibis perched atop a standard (G26):

Source of posted graphics

I would also like to see a source, especially from the older periods, from which Scott drew "Flood of Thoth." I know of no such derivation in hieroglyphs. The deduction he formed from his earlier graphics for the flood season and "Flood of Thoth" seem to be of his own design, and are not linguistically supported, In point of fact, a large number of ancient Egyptian words contain the sounds "kh" and "t," both which were very common in the language.

Quote

According to local legend in the Birecik area, the northern bald ibis was one of the first birds that Noah released from the Ark as a symbol of fertility,[64] and a lingering religious sentiment in Turkey helped the colonies there to survive long after the demise of the species in Europe, as described above.[25]

This ibis was revered as a holy bird and a symbol of brilliance and splendour in Ancient Egypt,[73][74] where, together with the sacred ibis, it was regarded as a reincarnation of Thoth, scribe of the gods, who was usually depicted with a man's body and the head of an ibis. – from here (My emphasis).

Notice in the image above, the AE God Thoth is represented with the head of the Crested Ibis (Gardiners G25). Notice also in the top-right corner of the Thoth image there is a crested ibis (Gardiner’s G25) perched on a standard representing the god Thoth. BOTH forms were used to depict the god Thoth.

Now, given that in ancient times, this bird was regarded as the ‘harbinger of the (Nile) flood’ it was, therefore, closely related to the concept of ‘flood’. This is why it would make a perfect logogram (or determinative) to convey the idea of ‘flood’ along with the phonetic Ax’t signs. Specifically, given this bird’s close association to the god Thoth, it would ‘herald’ the ‘Flood of Thoth’ that the AEs believed would overwhelm their kingdom. As I have said before, the pyramid sign atop the ‘pool’ sign (the recovery vault standing in flood water) serves as a determinative to convey this concept. Sometimes the rectangular sign is replaced with an ellipse which can mean ‘island’ which is exactly how the pyramids, standing in deep floodwaters would appear.

 

SC

Edited December 7, 2017 by Scott Creighton

[Doc Socks Junior]

On 11/29/2017 at 0:25 PM, cormac mac airt said:

For the sake of accuracy it ought to be mentioned that while there have been no long-term polar shifts in the last 700 million years (Matuyama-Brunhes (AKA Brunhes-Matuyama) transition) there have been several magnetic excursions/shorter duration shifts within that same timeframe to include the following, for example:

I go into the field with sketchy internet for a couple weeks to do paleomagnetic field work and miss the paleomagnetic discussion. I'm glad I caught this. I'm assuming you mean 700 kyr - not 700 Myr for the Brunhes chron.

The other ones are interesting - my work is more in deep time (the billions), so we look to average out the potential excursion "noise". It's always interesting to see the detailed short-term records.

I've worked with the Iceland Basin excursion paper author. Interesting fellow.

[mstower]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

Notice in the image above, the AE God Thoth is represented with the head of the Crested Ibis (Gardiners G25). Notice also in the top-right corner of the Thoth image there is a crested ibis (Gardiner’s G25) perched on a standard representing the god Thoth. BOTH forms were used to depict the god Thoth.

Still haven’t quite got the hang of stating sources, have  you, Scott?  We really do need to know the source of that image before we give it evidential weight.  I find this:

You may wish to note also that Thoth wears a version of the nemes headdress, when depicted in humanoid form.

M.

Edited December 7, 2017 by mstower
to correct something.

[mstower]

From here:

https://ancientexplorers.com/blogs/news/the-emerald-tablets-a-38-000-year-old-alchemist-s-guidebook-shrouded-in-mystery

M.

[mstower]

Out of stock and out of luck:

http://www.themysticcorner.com/thoth-wall-plaque.html

The piece is signed.  One of the first thing one learns looking at the real thing is how to spot modern decorative pieces like this one.  (I find no sign of its being a reproduction of a real piece.)

M.

Edited December 7, 2017 by mstower
to add something.

[mstower]

For a few dollars more, you could get it in colour:

http://www.themysticcorner.com/thoth-wall-plaque-1009.html

This one may be a reproduction (and note how it differs):

http://ancienttreasures.com/lrgtext.php3?product=E-60P&CA=1

Despite the claim to “Excellence in Museum Reproductions”, on looking at some of their other stuff, I doubt this is one.

M.

Edited December 7, 2017 by mstower
to add something.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Socks Junior said:

I go into the field with sketchy internet for a couple weeks to do paleomagnetic field work and miss the paleomagnetic discussion. I'm glad I caught this. I'm assuming you mean 700 kyr - not 700 Myr for the Brunhes chron.

The other ones are interesting - my work is more in deep time (the billions), so we look to average out the potential excursion "noise". It's always interesting to see the detailed short-term records.

I've worked with the Iceland Basin excursion paper author. Interesting fellow.

Good catch Socks Junior. Yes that should have read thousand years not million years. Was likely thinking that’s how often SC is right. Once in millions of years.   An axial tilt like he presents would greatly interfere with both the geological and geomagnetic record yet we see no evidence of any such thing having happened. Again, it’s fiction. 

cormac

[mstower]

The other one too is available uncoloured:

—which counts fairly strongly against its being a reproduction.

I see they actually have both:

http://www.ancienttreasures.com/items.php3?CA=56&UID=2017120707573251.9.42.61

M.

Edited December 7, 2017 by mstower
to add something.

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, mstower said:

Still haven’t quite got the hang of stating sources, have  you, Scott?  We really do need to know the source of that image before we give it evidential weight.  I find this:

 

 

He's been told that for a decade now - he still tries to play the game of presenting stuff with out letting people know the context and source, hence his nickname.Of course this is par for the course for the fringe writers who are attempting to entertain the fringe masses. THEY, the woo'ers don't care about sources they just want a good story. A very different audience from people who follow the scientific method. Perhaps, just perhaps someday SC will figure that out.......

[Kenemet]

9 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Notice in the image above, the AE God Thoth is represented with the head of the Crested Ibis (Gardiners G25). Notice also in the top-right corner of the Thoth image there is a crested ibis (Gardiner’s G25) perched on a standard representing the god Thoth. BOTH forms were used to depict the god Thoth.

Now, given that in ancient times, this bird was regarded as the ‘harbinger of the (Nile) flood’ it was, therefore, closely related to the concept of ‘flood’. This is why it would make a perfect logogram (or determinative) to convey the idea of ‘flood’ along with the phonetic Ax’t signs. Specifically, given this bird’s close association to the god Thoth, it would ‘herald’ the ‘Flood of Thoth’ that the AEs believed would overwhelm their kingdom. As I have said before, the pyramid sign atop the ‘pool’ sign (the recovery vault standing in flood water) serves as a determinative to convey this concept. Sometimes the rectangular sign is replaced with an ellipse which can mean ‘island’ which is exactly how the pyramids, standing in deep floodwaters would appear.

 

SC

Thoth is not depicted with the head of the crested ibis.  He's wearing a tripartate wig, the headgear worn by deities.  Occasionally he's shown with the nemes headcloth.

By the way, this is something that's clearly done by a non-Egyptian (probably European.)  The proportions are wrong and the hand holding the brush is holding it incorrectly (the AE's depicted the hand position very differently.)   

After looking at the full image posted by MStower, I have found what I *believe* may be the base image for this (it has been erased from the page where I found it, so this is a cache copy and not a good one).  As you see, the drawing you posted is a more simplified version of the actual scene from a temple.  The first set of hieroglyphs in the section below his left hand are reproduced exactly, but nonsense hieroglyphs have been added elsewhere... including the ones you're trying to make into the name, Thoth.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Kenemet

[mstower]

The same relief, image not wonderful:

M.

[mstower]

To recap, all of these are from Ancient Treasures:

The figure of Thoth is the same throughout, suggesting that there is no other original.  The smaller ones are closer to the original, but depart from it, while Creighton has relied on the nonsense hieroglyphs added to the larger plaques for purely decorative purposes.  Do I see mw there—the lost continent?

M.

[Herr Falukorv]

awesome thread

[cormac mac airt]

42 minutes ago, mstower said:

To recap, all of these are from Ancient Treasures:

The figure of Thoth is the same throughout, suggesting that there is no other original.  The smaller ones are closer to the original, but depart from it, while Creighton has relied on the nonsense hieroglyphs added to the larger plaques for purely decorative purposes.  Do I see mw there—the lost continent?

M.

Is this evidence that the Ancient Egyptian’s created Photoshop? 

cormac

[Windowpane]

13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Is this evidence that the Ancient Egyptian’s created Photoshop? 

With lighting by the Dendera Lightbulb, perhaps ...

[jmccr8]

55 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

With lighting by the Dendera Lightbulb, perhaps ...

Certainly makes a case for A void thinking.

jmccr8

[Kenemet]

Actually, the ancient Egyptians had rather picky standards for artists.  The royal workshops would send around models of how they wanted things to be seen (there are quite a few examples in museums) - and we know they would trace down grids before drawing... the grids helped them place limbs and decide figure proportions.  These change subtly throughout Egypt's history.  A person very familiar with this can tell at a glance whether something is Old Kingdom, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom or later.

(note: I am NOT that person, but as an artist some things just are very evident to my eye.)

[mstower]

We may consider Creighton’s other source, which is this Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_bald_ibis#In_culture

“This ibis was revered as a holy bird and a symbol of brilliance and splendour in Ancient Egypt,[73][74] where, together with the sacred ibis, it was regarded as a reincarnation of Thoth, scribe of the gods, . . .”

I see no clear citation for this.  The sources cited in notes 73 and 74 have nothing to say on the point, while note 75 cites Lucy (sic) Lamy, Egyptian Mysteries.  Lucie Lamy was the adopted daughter of René Adolphe Schwaller (de Lubicz).  I am not sure that I would regard this as an entirely reliable source, but as far as I recall, it says nothing of the kind.

M.

Edited December 8, 2017 by mstower
to add something.

[Kenemet]

18 minutes ago, mstower said:

We may consider Creighton’s other source, which is this Wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_bald_ibis#In_culture

“This ibis was revered as a holy bird and a symbol of brilliance and splendour in Ancient Egypt,[73][74] where, together with the sacred ibis, it was regarded as a reincarnation of Thoth, scribe of the gods, . . .”

I see no clear citation for this.  The sources cited in notes 73 and 74 have nothing to say on the point, while note 75 cites Lucy (sic) Lamy, Egyptian Mysteries.  Lucie Lamy was the adopted daughter of René Adolphe Schwaller (de Lubicz).  I am not sure that I would regard this as an entirely reliable source, but as far as I recall, it says nothing of the kind.

M.

Yeah, that bit bothered me and needs to be corrected.  They did not believe in reincarnation and the animals were not considered reincarnations of Thoth.  They did have animals that were worshiped as divine - similar to worship of the pharaoh as divine.  They are emblems of the deity, but not the deity themselves (c.f. Frankfort, Henri. Ancient Egyptian religion: an interpretation. Courier Corporation, 2012. and many others)