Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[Kenemet]

13 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

This is to say that the crested ibis doesn’t actually have to directly represent or be symbolic of Thoth (though, imv, it does symbolise a particular aspect of this god - the wisdom, insight, foresight, enlightened being of Thoth) but is, rather, the enlightened, wise bird that warns of the coming flood.

See my post just above this.

The crested ibis is not a bird that ever lived in Egypt.  So it would never arrive before or even after the Nile Flood.

The Egyptians may have been depicting the hermit ibis in the symbol that translators called "crested ibis."  Or it might be an ordinary ibis with a headcloth... I don't know.  However, it can't be the real "crested ibis."

Additionally, the hermit ibis does not herald Egypt's Nile flood since it arrives some 4 months before the annual Nile flood and leaves sometime after the flood starts.  The other species of ibis follow a similar timing in their migration.

[kmt_sesh]

Scott, I read your post from earlier today. I haven't had much free time all day to return to posting in this thread. So let's set aside the origin of the plaque you used (the tourist trinket). I can assure you, as depicted, it isn't authentically pharaonic. Maybe that is beside the point, but if you're going to use graphics, certainly the best choice is to use photogtaphy of authentic inscriptions and artifacts. The same with line drawings—they need to be sourced from real-world inscriptions and artifacts.

The point is, however, the bird in your plaque is not crested. The adornment on the head is a tripartite wig, as was explained in detail.

Last night I posted a photo of an authentic inscription in which Thoth is hieroglyphically depicted. If you feel the Egyptians used the crested ibis to depict Thoth in some fashion, then you need to present clear evidence (a link to a graphic or the graphic posted itself). I do not see G25, the crested ibis, as representing Thoth. At lunch today, instead of posting, I even spent some time looking at a lot of images and could not find a single one of Thoth as G25. Every one I saw was G26 or G26a. Now, it's not like I viewed every image of Thoth ever published or put on the internet, so if you have an authentic depiction of such, then please post it. The plaque doesn't work because it's not authentic, and the line-art ibis you posted is not from Gardiner.

On a closing note, I once again read the excerpt from the Book of the Dead in which the flood is threatened (see page 145 in this book). As is clear from this chapter in the Book of the Dead, the ultimate agent behind the flood is Atum. And even Thoth will be destroyed in the flood, The only survivors will be Atum and Osiris. And before this flood is to occur, Atum promises "millions of millions, a lifespan of millions..." So clearly there was nothing imminent about this flood.

My level of research doesn't go this deep but I'm pretty sure the earliest version of this god-derived flood is the Coffin Texts (c. 2100 BCE). It isn't even Old Kingdom. The Coffin Texts are an outgrowth of the emerging Osiris cult.

And Thoth wasn't really revered as the god of the flood. His main attributes were scribe of the gods, the bringer of writing to mankind, a god of magic, a god of order, a lieutenant to Re in the underworld, one of the protectors on the nighttime vessel of Re as he journeyed through the underworld. Thoth was one busy deity, but his primary cult did not include floods.

[kmt_sesh]

20 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

...

Egypt has three kinds of ibis birds - the Glossy Ibis: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossy_ibis, the Sacred Ibis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_sacred_ibis, and the Hermit Ibis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_bald_ibis.  The Hermit ibis does have a crest, so the hieroglyph actually might have been indicating this particular species.

...

Good bit of research there. But I have to admit, the hermit ibis is not a terribly beautiful bird. Looks like a vulture. 

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, Hanslune said:

I believe he noted earlier that he had made an error there - nothing like good editing! It had gone unnoticed for five years.

The above link is the first rendition of this idea of Osiris maps using dots made from pyramids.

There appear to be a lot of missing graphics in that old thread. Is that Rupert's doing? Sneaky fellow! But it was fun to read through some of those old posts, back in the day when cladking was active. And look how much of a windbag I was! But it was entertaining.

[Hanslune]

57 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

There appear to be a lot of missing graphics in that old thread. Is that Rupert's doing? Sneaky fellow! But it was fun to read through some of those old posts, back in the day when cladking was active. And look how much of a windbag I was! But it was entertaining.

Probably has to do with the going-to-pay-to-play for some of the better image storage places. That devastated a number of forums.

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said:

It really bothers me that our Administrator had to step in to issue a final warning, and this after my own recent warning. It's almost as though some posters want to get this thread closed. Knock it off. You won't get further warnings. May we please discuss and debate like adults?

I would humbly suggest that instead of issuing vague general warning that either public or private notification using specific targeted warnings. Example: if someone is mad about me using the word say fringe, I do so because it is a valid descriptive term and its use is in mind the truth and correct. Etc.

[mstower]

18 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

So I think it is reasonable to infer from this that the creator of this piece saw this crested ibis on the standard as an actual sign, probably in a tomb just as they likely did for all the other parts of the composition. If an artist is trying to make an authentic-looking piece, they are hardly likely to go making up their own signs. I know most here will disagree with this assessment but that’s my view. . . .

That’s it?  That’s your excuse for posting bogus “evidence” here?  Your assurance that the unknown “artist” of a modern, decorative item would conscientiously get the hieroglyphs right?  The same one who didn’t make sure that they made sense in combination?

Tell us, Scott, did you know what it was when you posted it?

18 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

. . . And I fully expect some of you will be along any moment to claim that it was ME WHO dunnit – that it was ME who created this piece or who photo-shopped that sign into the image . . .

Not sure why you’d expect this, when I’ve already established the real source of your bogus evidence.  You know, Scott, the thing you notably failed to do.

18 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

. . . (you know, like I apparently create Wiki entries that say BOTH these ibis species were symbolic of Thoth). Any time now – 5… 4… 3… 2… 1…

Not sure how one person suggesting this warrants the “some of you”.

M.

Edited December 9, 2017 by mstower
to fix something.

[Scott Creighton]

7 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

The point is, however, the bird in your plaque is not crested.

The image below (left) shows a number of 'crested ibis' used in the name 'Akhet Khufu'. The examples are from Chris Tedder's article here..

The example on the right is from the modern panel composition (Note: I inverted it to allow easier comparison with the other birds in the image).

Can you explain to me why the bird on the far right "is not crested"? Setting the 'standard perch' aside, why do you think this is not the same bird as those used in the 'Akhet Khufu' name on the left?

SC

EDIT: I should have added. Given that the drawings of 'Akhet Khufu' (above left) are clearly modern renditions, do you consider that these images are not "authentic inscriptions? Just because the location of the modern composition (the one on the right) has not been identified should not mean it does not actually exist - however much that may offend you.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Scott Creighton

[mstower]

11 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

The image below (left) shows a number of 'crested ibis' used in the name 'Akhet Khufu'. The examples are from Chris Tedder's article here..

The example on the right is from the modern panel composition (Note: I inverted it to allow easier comparison with the other birds in the image).

Can you tell why the bird on the right "is not crested"? Setting the 'standard perch' aside, why do you think this is not the same bird as those used in the 'Akhet Khufu' name on the left?

SC

Would a moderator like to specify how one may acceptably respond to persistent posting of bogus evidence known to be bogus?  I for one consider it massively disrespectful.

M.

[Harte]

16 hours ago, Hanslune said:

"I regard", so what? You have no evidence to support this opinion, other than stuff you've made up, SO this opinion is based on your own opinions - feel free to write a historical fiction novel on the subject. Building opinions based on earlier opinions is known in some circles as the cascade of failure. So basically you are restating your opinion and demanding we accept it as fact. Your assumptions are just that, baseless assumption which you PERSONALLY believe in. Religion not science. You could write a paper and see if anyone knowledgeable on the subject would agree with you but that has three problems; one you won't dare try that as this argument is pitched at the level of believers and not scientists, secondly it doesn't even make much sense, third you're not recognized as an expert on this subject so your opinion has no weight, compelling knowledge or experience behind it. You wish to be judged as a Egyptologist would? Okay. then write the paper.

In an intermediate step you could try and to asnwer Kenemet's questions - and all the other questions you've avoided:

Edited to add a source provided from the Hall of Ma'at thread on the term 'reincarnation.

https://archive.org/details/thoththehermes00boyluoft

Man, you could get lost in that book for days. 

Harte

[Harte]

3 hours ago, mstower said:

That’s it?  That’s your excuse for posting bogus “evidence” here?  Your assurance that the unknown “artist” of a modern, decorative item would conscientiously get the hieroglyphs right?  The same one who didn’t make sure that they made sense in combination?

Tell us, Scott, did you know what it was when you posted it?

Not sure why you’d expect this, when I’ve already established the real source of your bogus evidence.  You know, Scott, the thing you notably failed to do.

Not sure how one person suggesting this warrants the “some of you”.

M.

 

21 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

And I fully expect some of you will be along any moment to claim that it was ME WHO dunnit – that it was ME who created this piece or who photo-shopped that sign into the image (you know, like I apparently create Wiki entries that say BOTH these ibis species were symbolic of Thoth). Any time now – 5… 4… 3… 2… 1…

mstower, you force me to read Scott's posts when you quote them.

Scott, what do you expect? You posted a piece of modern décor as a source for your claims.

Why wouldn't we think maybe you posted other similarly meaningless things on wiki?

Using your methodology, I could claim that this is evidence of ancient electric stovetops from the Canary Islands and therefore Atlantean:

Harte

[mstower]

50 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

The image below (left) shows a number of 'crested ibis' used in the name 'Akhet Khufu'. The examples are from Chris Tedder's article here..

The example on the right is from the modern panel composition (Note: I inverted it to allow easier comparison with the other birds in the image).

Can you explain to me why the bird on the far right "is not crested"? Setting the 'standard perch' aside, why do you think this is not the same bird as those used in the 'Akhet Khufu' name on the left?

SC

EDIT: I should have added. Given that the drawings of 'Akhet Khufu' (above left) are clearly modern renditions, do you consider that these images are not "authentic inscriptions? Just because the location of the modern composition (the one on the right) has not been identified should not mean it does not actually exist - however much that may offend you.

Allow me to explain it to you.  At top left we have epigraphers’ drawings, whose object is to map original inscriptions as accurately as possible, much as a cartographer would map a territory.  At bottom left we have transcription, a quite different kind of mapping, whose object is to show what characters are present without trying to reproduce ever idiosyncrasy of the original, much as one might transcribe a handwritten letter without trying to copy the handwriting.

At right we have a detail of a purely decorative modern wall plaque, of no evidential value in this discussion.  It takes more than existence for something to be evidence (and relevant evidence).

M.

[Scott Creighton]

10 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Good bit of research there. But I have to admit, the hermit ibis is not a terribly beautiful bird. Looks like a vulture. 

Northern Bald Ibis (Waldrapp)

"…the northern bald ibis migrated south for the winter, and formerly occurred as a vagrant to Spain, Iraq, Egypt,…

 …The bald ibises still breeding in Syria, discovered during an extensive biodiversity survey carried out as part of a FAO cooperation project, are the last living descendants of those depicted in Egyptian hieroglyphs from 4500 years ago….

 …This ibis was revered as a holy bird and a symbol of brilliance and splendour in Ancient Egypt,[73][74] where, together with the sacred ibis, it was regarded as an embodiment of Thoth, scribe of the gods, who was usually depicted with a man's body and the head of an ibis…" From here.

 "…in ancient times Egypt was probably a breeding area for the waldrapps who migrated there once a year… (p. 118)"

here.

God “Thoth” or the northern bald bis negotiates its way back from extinction in the Middle East

"...The bird that was worshipped as the god Thoth during Pharonic times was thought to have gone extinct in the Middle East. But then in 2002, 7 precious birds were discovered near the ancient city of Palmyra..."

From here.

SC

Edited December 9, 2017 by Scott Creighton

[mstower]

35 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

"…This ibis was revered as a holy bird and a symbol of brilliance and splendour in Ancient Egypt,[73][74] where, together with the sacred ibis, it was regarded as an embodiment of Thoth, scribe of the gods, who was usually depicted with a man's body and the head of an ibis…" From here.

So?  This is merely the same Wikipedia entry, which someone has edited to replace ‘reincarnation’ with ‘embodiment’.  Problem remains as before: there is no citation for the claim, which appears to be merely modern folklore.

35 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

.God “Thoth” or the northern bald bis negotiates its way back from extinction in the Middle East

"...The bird that was worshipped as the god Thoth during Pharonic times was thought to have gone extinct in the Middle East. But then in 2002, 7 precious birds were discovered near the ancient city of Palmyra..."

From here.

This is by someone called Tafline Laylin, whose specialist concern is ecology, not Egyptology.

Still no sign of a credible source for the Thoth claim (and of course there will be none).

M.

Edited December 9, 2017 by mstower
to fix what the revolting editor keeps messing up.

[Scott Creighton]

10 hours ago, Kenemet said:

 

Kenemet: The crested ibis is not a bird that ever lived in Egypt.  So it would never arrive before or even after the Nile Flood.

SC: Egypt was part of its migratory route. 

Kenemet: The Egyptians may have been depicting the hermit ibis in the symbol that translators called "crested ibis."  Or it might be an ordinary ibis with a headcloth... I don't know.  However, it can't be the real "crested ibis."

SC: Hermit Ibis yes - also called Northern Bald Ibis (which is what I described in my image here.)

Kenemet: Additionally, the hermit ibis does not herald Egypt's Nile flood since it arrives some 4 months before the annual Nile flood and leaves sometime after the flood starts.  The other species of ibis follow a similar timing in their migration.

SC: It usually departed around 2 weeks before the flood arrived, thereby signalling its imminent arrival.

SC

[mstower]

2 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

SC: It usually departed around 2 weeks before the flood arrived, thereby signalling its imminent arrival.

Source?

Why do we have to keep asking this?

M.

[mstower]

5 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

. . . Just because the location of the modern composition (the one on the right) has not been identified should not mean it does not actually exist - however much that may offend you.

Rereading the tortured phraseology here, I think I can reconstruct what he was trying to say.  Something like, “just because the original (of the crested ibis standard) has not been identified, doesn’t mean that there isn’t one”—which some unkind people may be tempted to call appeal to ignorance.

Kenemet identifed the original relief on which someone working for Ancient Treasures improvised fairly freely.  Setting aside colour, there are two variants.  The smaller version retains some of the original hieroglyphs, but not all.  Others have been added, apparently at the whim of the designer, to complete the composition.

When we move to the larger version, the hieroglyphs have changed almost entirely.  The only commonality I can see is retention of the hieroglyph representing the scribal equipment.  The result overall is gibberish—all of which goes to show that accurate reproduction of an original or being true to the hieroglyphs was not on the designer’s agenda.  We have strong reason to doubt that there is any original (of that particular motif) to find.

M.

Edited December 9, 2017 by mstower
to add images.

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

Kenemet: Additionally, the hermit ibis does not herald Egypt's Nile flood since it arrives some 4 months before the annual Nile flood and leaves sometime after the flood starts.  The other species of ibis follow a similar timing in their migration.

SC: It usually departed around 2 weeks before the flood arrived, thereby signalling its imminent arrival.

I do find a paper that supports this last idea (in the Delta, it hangs around for a brief time in early summer before migrating further south), however it does not associate the bird with Thoth but rather with beliefs in the akh: 
 https://www.academia.edu/894641/Spotting_the_Akh._The_Presence_of_the_Northern_Bald_Ibis_in_Ancient_Egypt_and_Its_Early_Decline

This paper makes the link that yes, the "crested ibis" is actually the northern bald ibis shown in hieroglyphs.

However - the paper also points out that the bird was infrequently seen in Egypt (and then only in the Delta region and), so there were no flocks descending to herald anything.  It goes on to say:

• The only material evidence for the presence of the northern bald ibis in Egypt in the form of skeletal remains comes from Maadi where the so-called Maadi-culture (ca.4000–3200 bc) had its settlements. This unique fnd represents both the earliest evidence for this bird in Egypt and its only confirmed preserved bodily remains. The northern bald ibis was not hunted or sacrificed in Egypt; nor was it kept in temples and mummified at death.   On the contrary, both the sacred ibis and the glossy ibis are known to have been kept and mummified; for the sacred ibis the mummified examples reach many thousands.

  Thus, to date, only pictorial representations of the northern bald ibis are recorded from later periods of Egyptian history.  
  (source: Janák, Jíří. "Spotting the Akh. The presence of the northern bald ibis in Ancient Egypt and its early decline." 
  
  Source: Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt (2010): 17-31.)  hyperlink: http://www.academia.edu/download/7393325/13-Janak-JARCE46.pdf

So tying the Northern Bald Ibis to Thoth is not supported.  To the akheru, yes.  Not to Thoth.  We can agree on that.

The migration pattern of the ibises does not make any of them reliable heralds of anything.  They arrive rather randomly over the period of a month and leave over the period of a month... many of them leaving well after the floods start.  Sirius was far more reliable (and the event that they used to mark the flood season).

A further point against identifying ibises with the flood is that none of the many known Nile and flood deities is an ibis.  Thoth is not a flood deity, though he records the floods as he records everything else.

 

So:  there's no record identifying the ibis of Thoth as connected with the flood (unless you can turn up written evidence from dynastic times that specifically talks about birds arriving to herald the flood.  Second, you have not shown any documentary evidence dating to dynastic times of something called "the Flood of Thoth".

...and then there's the other points I haven't seen you address yet.

[cormac mac airt]

11 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I do find a paper that supports this last idea (in the Delta, it hangs around for a brief time in early summer before migrating further south), however it does not associate the bird with Thoth but rather with beliefs in the akh: 
 https://www.academia.edu/894641/Spotting_the_Akh._The_Presence_of_the_Northern_Bald_Ibis_in_Ancient_Egypt_and_Its_Early_Decline

This paper makes the link that yes, the "crested ibis" is actually the northern bald ibis shown in hieroglyphs.

However - the paper also points out that the bird was infrequently seen in Egypt (and then only in the Delta region and), so there were no flocks descending to herald anything.  It goes on to say:

• The only material evidence for the presence of the northern bald ibis in Egypt in the form of skeletal remains comes from Maadi where the so-called Maadi-culture (ca.4000–3200 bc) had its settlements. This unique fnd represents both the earliest evidence for this bird in Egypt and its only confirmed preserved bodily remains. The northern bald ibis was not hunted or sacrificed in Egypt; nor was it kept in temples and mummified at death.   On the contrary, both the sacred ibis and the glossy ibis are known to have been kept and mummified; for the sacred ibis the mummified examples reach many thousands.

  Thus, to date, only pictorial representations of the northern bald ibis are recorded from later periods of Egyptian history.  
  (source: Janák, Jíří. "Spotting the Akh. The presence of the northern bald ibis in Ancient Egypt and its early decline." 
  
  Source: Journal of the American Research Center in Egypt (2010): 17-31.)  hyperlink: http://www.academia.edu/download/7393325/13-Janak-JARCE46.pdf

So tying the Northern Bald Ibis to Thoth is not supported.  To the akheru, yes.  Not to Thoth.  We can agree on that.

The migration pattern of the ibises does not make any of them reliable heralds of anything.  They arrive rather randomly over the period of a month and leave over the period of a month... many of them leaving well after the floods start.  Sirius was far more reliable (and the event that they used to mark the flood season).

A further point against identifying ibises with the flood is that none of the many known Nile and flood deities is an ibis.  Thoth is not a flood deity, though he records the floods as he records everything else.

 

So:  there's no record identifying the ibis of Thoth as connected with the flood (unless you can turn up written evidence from dynastic times that specifically talks about birds arriving to herald the flood.  Second, you have not shown any documentary evidence dating to dynastic times of something called "the Flood of Thoth".

...and then there's the other points I haven't seen you address yet.

Funny enough I was just reading the same paper by Janak and had come to much the same conclusion. 

cormac

[Kenemet]

6 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

The image below (left) shows a number of 'crested ibis' used in the name 'Akhet Khufu'. The examples are from Chris Tedder's article here..

The example on the right is from the modern panel composition (Note: I inverted it to allow easier comparison with the other birds in the image).

Can you explain to me why the bird on the far right "is not crested"? Setting the 'standard perch' aside, why do you think this is not the same bird as those used in the 'Akhet Khufu' name on the left?

SC

EDIT: I should have added. Given that the drawings of 'Akhet Khufu' (above left) are clearly modern renditions, do you consider that these images are not "authentic inscriptions? Just because the location of the modern composition (the one on the right) has not been identified should not mean it does not actually exist - however much that may offend you.

One thing you may not have noticed, but there are two "/" signs under the bird on the standard (which you call the perch.)  That's the sign for plural... so you bad modern example which has made a hash of the signs is not even the sign for akh.

It is the same bird, but the ones in the real hieroglyphs are the singular form "Akh" (hence "akhet").  The fake "bird on a standard" actually is "multiple birds on a standard".  We have "akheru" (multiple akhs) on a standard... or maybe one akh on multiple standards.

If you want to prove this modern mis-drawn hieroglyph is real, all you have to do is find it in one of the Egyptian language dictionaries.  Look under the section for words beginning with "a" or "aa."  Budge, for all his problems, does indicate where the original material is found and although many of his translations are not reliable, his freely accessible dictionaries can be used to at least look up things.  Furthermore, he has fragments of inscriptions in his dictionary... these are copied correctly though the translation is not always correct (I've found a number of errors and my ability to read hieroglyphs is not very good. So do haul out Budge and look... I haven't found any sign of an akh on a standard, myself.

But until you actually find something from Dynastic Egypt that's associated with Thoth and looks just like that symbol, that piece stands as a badly done modern fake with gibberish graffiti and not an authentic representation of anything from Dynastic Egypt.

[Kenemet]

10 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Funny enough I was just reading the same paper by Janak and had come to much the same conclusion. 

cormac

Great researchers think alike. 

Seriously, it's a well-written paper and the research and citations look solid.  Plus, the information on migration patterns match that which I find on sites by birders.

Edited December 9, 2017 by Kenemet

[Oniomancer]

17 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Has anyone else noticed that the Osiris layout image that SC provided, and to which Oniomancer recently replied, shows #10 as Zawiyet al-Aryan whereas it actually is located at/near Saqqara. Zawiyet al-Aryan is actually 6 miles +/- northwest of Saqqara. I'd say that's a significant error based on what the image claims. 

cormac

For those such as myself who may have difficulty immediately grasping the spatial orientation:

Source:

http://egyptphoto.ncf.ca/index.htm

Google maps overview:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/29°54'00.0"N+31°12'00.0"E/@29.9005952,31.1313354,24457m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d29.9!4d31.2?hl=en

If this is accurate then, the individual nodes do not tally with where they're suggested to be, which destroys the supposed symmetry even more.

 

[mstower]

13 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

One thing you may not have noticed, but there are two "/" signs under the bird on the standard (which you call the perch.)  That's the sign for plural... so you bad modern example which has made a hash of the signs is not even the sign for akh.

A pedant writes: two strokes would be dual, I think.

And we have the t there.  Why?  Looks like fluent gibberish.

M.

Edited December 9, 2017 by mstower
to add an s.

[Scott Creighton]

21 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

For those such as myself who may have difficulty immediately grasping the spatial orientation:

Source:

http://egyptphoto.ncf.ca/index.htm

Google maps overview:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/29°54'00.0"N+31°12'00.0"E/@29.9005952,31.1313354,24457m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d29.9!4d31.2?hl=en

If this is accurate then, the individual nodes do not tally with where they're suggested to be, which destroys the supposed symmetry even more.

 

 

[mstower]

47 minutes ago, mstower said:

A pedant writes: two strokes would be dual, I think.

And we have the t there.  Why?  Looks like fluent gibberish.

M.

Looking through the Vygus Dictionary, I find this combination (sans standard) as “the two Akh spirits (Nekhbet & Buto)” (= Nekhbet & Wadjet).

M.

Edited December 9, 2017 by mstower
to add something.