Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[Gaden]

3 hours ago, Jarocal said:

But they are not in the same place. The seeds were in the more easily accessible Area while the mummies were in the recently discovered chamber.

 Easy if you have dynamite available.

 

[mstower]

4 minutes ago, Gaden said:

 Easy if you have dynamite available.

 

The seeds were in the relieving chambers and Vyse took them for his gardens at Stoke Place.

M.

[Kenemet]

10 hours ago, mstower said:

Which goes to show that the standards he attributes to Egyptologists are undemanding ones (which doesn’t stop him citing Egyptologists—or alleged Egyptologists—when it suits him).

His attitude is one which some might call “postmodern”.  (I would not credit him with anything so highbrow.)  Running through it is a deep cynicism about the possibility of knowledge, such that what he makes up is “just as good” as what the Egyptologists say.

I doubt he has ever writen a university paper, which may explain a lot.

M.

I think he does have a degree in the computer sciences (at least he runs a business that involves computers... according to my vague memory) - or at leas he has credentials in the computer field.  

...I don't think they're a match for mine, but I believe he has a solid education in at least one field.

[Jarocal]

22 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

 

...I don't think they're a match for mine, but I believe he has a solid education in at least one field.

And yet is still unable to persuade an undereducated redneck most of his conjectures hold merit...

[mstower]

13 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

I think he does have a degree in the computer sciences (at least he runs a business that involves computers... according to my vague memory) - or at leas he has credentials in the computer field.  

...I don't think they're a match for mine, but I believe he has a solid education in at least one field.

He runs an Internet cafe:

http://www.yeeha-internet-cafe.co.uk/

He has claimed to be an ICT Network Engineer.  He has not as far as I know stated any relevant paper qualification.

Had he a degree, he surely would have mentioned it.

I assume he has not, (a) in default of his having said so and (b) on grounds of his clearly not having an inkling of standards of argument or research.

M. 

[Jarocal]

7 hours ago, mstower said:

The seeds were in the relieving chambers and Vyse took them for his gardens at Stoke Place.

M.

If he wanted decent plant material for his gardens he should have studied the South American cultures. Instead he forged a glyph on pile of Limestone stacked by a group of stinkyfooted bumpkins who owe any agricultural skills they possessed to robbing the Levantine cultures and (poorly) implementing it along the Nile.

[mstower]

14 minutes ago, Jarocal said:

If he wanted decent plant material for his gardens he should have studied the South American cultures. Instead he forged a glyph on pile of Limestone stacked by a group of stinkyfooted bumpkins who owe any agricultural skills they possessed to robbing the Levantine cultures and (poorly) implementing it along the Nile.

Having inherited lots of land, he had substantial agricultural interests.  He may have wanted the seeds for that reason.

M.

[Windowpane]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:53 AM, Scott Creighton said:

No one is talking about storing enough seed to feed the entire kingdom--these weren't granaries but 'Recovery Vaults' which stored just enough seed to 'reboot' the kingdom. Think of the Svalbard Global Seed Vault. The seed in the vaults there are not intended to feed the entire planet or even the whole of Norway. They are stored to ensure recovery of plant/crop species should any natural or other disaster wipe them out ...

But is it certain that these (supposed) seeds in the (supposed) Recovery Vault were even healthy?

A plant disease is responsible for modifying ancient agricultural practices
Robert M. Harveson 
Panhandle Research and Extension Center, Scottsbluff

[Scott Creighton]

23 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

But is it certain that these (supposed) seeds in the (supposed) Recovery Vault were even healthy?

Who knows? But what would their alternative have been? Do nothing?

SC

[mstower]

On 11/22/2017 at 9:53 AM, Scott Creighton said:

No one is talking about storing enough seed to feed the entire kingdom--these weren't granaries but 'Recovery Vaults' which stored just enough seed to 'reboot' the kingdom. Think of the Svalbard Global Seed Vault. The seed in the vaults there are not intended to feed the entire planet or even the whole of Norway. They are stored to ensure recovery of plant/crop species should any natural or other disaster wipe them out. The combined storage space of the Svalbard vault is less than the combined storage of the pyramid vaults. . . .

To recover species, yes.  Not to generate all at once crops sufficient to feed a starving population.

No one is talking about storing enough seed to feed the entire kingdom?  Then they should be.  You do not get to “reboot” the kingdom if the (largely agricultural) population dies before the food is ready.  There needs to be something to eat in the interim.  What is it?  Manna?

Your scheme is unfit for purpose, if not actually incoherent.

Edit to add: Some reality on Svalbard:

https://www.livescience.com/56247-global-seed-vault.html

“Though its mission is to keep the world’s seeds safe, its creation wasn’t meant as a way to reseed the world after a world-scale catastrophe.”

M.

Edited January 8, 2018 by mstower
to add something.

[Windowpane]

 

Windowpane said:

But is it certain that these (supposed) seeds in the (supposed) Recovery Vault were even healthy?

Scott Creighton said:

Who knows?

**

 

Well: given that many of your claims depend heavily on the perceived importance of grain in early societies, don't you know more about this?
 

Quote

Scott begins with a brisk account of of how the human species came to be dependent on grain cultivation.

 

 

[Scott Creighton]

11 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

 

Windowpane said:

But is it certain that these (supposed) seeds in the (supposed) Recovery Vault were even healthy?

Scott Creighton said:

Who knows?

**

 

Well: given that many of your claims depend heavily on the perceived importance of grain in early societies, don't you know more about this?
 

 

I don;t deny grain was important to early societies and civilisations just as it is to ours. As would many other crops. You seem to be asking me if the seeds placed in the pyramid Recovery Vaults were healthy or not? Well, how would you expect me to even know that? One must assume that the AEs understood the various crop types well enough to ensure that what they stored WAS healthy. I can't honestly see them storing crop seeds that WEREN'T healthy. Why would they even think about storing crop seed that WASN'T healthy? That makes no sense.

SC

Edited January 8, 2018 by Scott Creighton

[mstower]

You had me thinking for a moment that Scott had said something sensible.

M.

[mstower]

3 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

I don;t deny grain was important to early societies and civilisations just as it is to ours. As would many other crops. You seem to be asking me if the seeds placed in the pyramid Recovery Vaults were healthy or not? Well, how would you expect me to even know that? One must assume that the AEs understood the various crop types well enough to ensure that what they stored WAS healthy. I can't honestly see them storing crop seeds that WEREN'T healthy. Why would they even think about storing crop seed that WASN'T healthy? That makes no sense.

SC

Crediting them with a degree of understanding of seeds and their health and their long-term viability.  One would think they’d be preserving seeds all over the place and not just in pyramids, much as Svalbard is actually a back-up to banks all over the world.

So, can you specify some surviving examples?

M.

[mstower]

15 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

. . . One must assume that the AEs understood the various crop types well enough to ensure that what they stored WAS healthy. . . .

Must one?  What exactly is the force of that “must”?  That it’s required or presupposed by your theory?

Care to offer some evidence that the ancient Egyptians (who appear to have been reinstated as the builders of the pyramids) actually had this level of understanding?

M.

[Lord Harry]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

I don;t deny grain was important to early societies and civilisations just as it is to ours. As would many other crops. You seem to be asking me if the seeds placed in the pyramid Recovery Vaults were healthy or not? Well, how would you expect me to even know that? One must assume that the AEs understood the various crop types well enough to ensure that what they stored WAS healthy. I can't honestly see them storing crop seeds that WEREN'T healthy. Why would they even think about storing crop seed that WASN'T healthy? That makes no sense.

SC

Archaeologists have discovered the actual remains of Egyptian granaries. And none of them are pyramidal in shape, and all were situated within settlements, not on the western outskirts. 

There is also the matter which any proponent of the pyramid-granary hypothesis must contend. The pyramids with their narrow passages and difficult to access chambers would have made for an exceedingly inefficient granary design if there ever was one.

And if we have learned only one thing about the ancient Egyptians in over 200 years of research it would be this: 

The ancient Egyptians didn't do inefficient.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Lord Harry

[Scott Creighton]

34 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

 

LH: Archaeologists have discovered the actual remains of Egyptian granaries. And none of them are pyramidal in shape, and all were situated within settlements, not on the western outskirts. 

SC: I'm not arguing that AE granaries were pyramid-shaped.

LH: There is also the matter which any proponent of the pyramid-granary hypothesis must contend.

SC: Again--not a pyramid-granary.

LH: The pyramids with their narrow passages and difficult to access chambers would have made for an exceedingly inefficient granary design if there ever was one.

SC: Again--the pyramid wasn't a granary.

LH: And if we have learned only one thing about the ancient Egyptians in over 200 years of research it would be this: 

The ancient Egyptians didn't do inefficient.

SC: Indeed.

SC

[mstower]

5 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

LH: Archaeologists have discovered the actual remains of Egyptian granaries. And none of them are pyramidal in shape, and all were situated within settlements, not on the western outskirts. 

SC: I'm not arguing that AE granaries were pyramid-shaped.

Really?

6 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

SC: Again--the pyramid wasn't a granary.

Indeed.

M.

[Lord Harry]

11 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

LH: Archaeologists have discovered the actual remains of Egyptian granaries. And none of them are pyramidal in shape, and all were situated within settlements, not on the western outskirts. 

SC: I'm not arguing that AE granaries were pyramid-shaped.

LH: There is also the matter which any proponent of the pyramid-granary hypothesis must contend.

SC: Again--not a pyramid-granary.

LH: The pyramids with their narrow passages and difficult to access chambers would have made for an exceedingly inefficient granary design if there ever was one.

SC: Again--the pyramid wasn't a granary.

LH: And if we have learned only one thing about the ancient Egyptians in over 200 years of research it would be this: 

The ancient Egyptians didn't do inefficient.

SC: Indeed.

SC

My apologies. However, with your many references to grain in the context of Egyptian pyramids it does bring to mind a certain medieval speculation.

What exactly do you propose was the function of Egypt's many pyramids?

[Scott Creighton]

17 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

 

LH: My apologies. However, with your many references to grain in the context of Egyptian pyramids it does bring to mind a certain medieval speculation.

SC: You're not the first to think this and I doubt you'll be the last. No--the pyramids were not granaries and certainly not the 'Granaries of Joseph'.

LH: What exactly do you propose was the function of Egypt's many pyramids?

SC: According to the Coptic-Egyptian tradition that has come down to us (via al-Masoudi), they were 'Recovery Vaults' (my term) -- a kind of 'Ark' built to ensure the recovery/rebirth of the kingdom after a deluge the AEs believed would overwhelm their kingdom. The AE king (Surid), upon learning of this from his astronomer-priests decided to built pyramids into which would be placed everything needed to 'reboot' the kingdom after the worst effects of the deluge had abated. Grain storage would only have been one of the things stored therein but there would have been many other things also. There is considerable evidence to support the Coptic-Egyptian tradition but I won;t b going through all of that here.

EDIT: The original plan would, imo, have included only the 16-19 pyramids of the 3rd and 4th dynasties.. These first 16 or so pyramids would, in time, come to be regarded as the 'body of Osiris' which the Myth of Osiris (see Plutarch) tells us was cut into 14 pieces (Diodorus claims 16 pieces) and scattered across the land of Egypt.

SC

Edited January 8, 2018 by Scott Creighton

[mstower]

15 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

My apologies. However, with your many references to grain in the context of Egyptian pyramids it does bring to mind a certain medieval speculation.

What exactly do you propose was the function of Egypt's many pyramids?

He’s happy to use medieval speculation and folklore as a jumping-off point—and then indignantly distance himself from them if anyone has the temerity to notice.

His “seed bank” speculation has nothing to do with the “granaries” tradition?  Really?

M.

[mstower]

8 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

LH: What exactly do you propose was the function of Egypt's many pyramids?

SC: According to the Coptic-Egyptian tradition that has come down to us (via al-Masoudi), they were 'Recovery Vaults' (my term) -- a kind of 'Ark' built to ensure the recovery/rebirth of the kingdom after a deluge the AEs believed would overwhelm their kingdom. The AE king (Surid), upon learning of this from his astronomer-priests decided to built pyramids into which would be placed everything needed to 'reboot' the kingdom after the worst effects of the deluge had abated. Grain storage would only have been one of the things stored therein but there would have been many other things also. There is considerable evidence to support the Coptic-Egyptian tradition but I won;t b going through all of that here.

Cherry-picking, from (a) Masoudi and (b) Coptic folklore:

http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,1129600,1130028#msg-1130028

M.

[Lord Harry]

6 minutes ago, mstower said:

He’s happy to use medieval speculation and folklore as a jumping-off point—and then indignantly distance himself from them if anyone has the temerity to notice.

His “seed bank” speculation has nothing to do with the “granaries” tradition?  Really?

M.

And all this time I thought Ben Carson was among us. Lol joking. But in all seriousness, the only grain ever stored within the pyramids would have been including among the afterlife provisions for the deceased kings.

[Lord Harry]

15 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

LH: My apologies. However, with your many references to grain in the context of Egyptian pyramids it does bring to mind a certain medieval speculation.

SC: You're not the first to think this and I doubt you'll be the last. No--the pyramids were not granaries and certainly not the 'Granaries of Joseph'.

LH: What exactly do you propose was the function of Egypt's many pyramids?

SC: According to the Coptic-Egyptian tradition that has come down to us (via al-Masoudi), they were 'Recovery Vaults' (my term) -- a kind of 'Ark' built to ensure the recovery/rebirth of the kingdom after a deluge the AEs believed would overwhelm their kingdom. The AE king (Surid), upon learning of this from his astronomer-priests decided to built pyramids into which would be placed everything needed to 'reboot' the kingdom after the worst effects of the deluge had abated. Grain storage would only have been one of the things stored therein but there would have been many other things also. There is considerable evidence to support the Coptic-Egyptian tradition but I won;t b going through all of that here.

EDIT: The original plan would, imo, have included only the 16-19 pyramids of the 3rd and 4th dynasties.. These first 16 or so pyramids would, in time, come to be regarded as the 'body of Osiris' which the Myth of Osiris (see Plutarch) tells us was cut into 14 pieces (Diodorus claims 16 pieces) and scattered across the land of Egypt.

SC

I believe what you are referencing is an ancient Coptic folk tradition preserved in writing by the 15th century Arab historian al-Maqrizi. The Copic story was a combination of the Great Flood of Genesis and the several ancient Egyptian myths from Osirian and Heliopolitan theology. 

I do agree with you that the Copts were by and large proud of their ancient Egyptian heritage, and preserved much of the ancient culture in a Christianized form. The Surid account (the name being a corruption of Suphis, a late form of the name Khufu) was merely a late Antique attempt to explain the existence of the Giza monuments. Using a combination of vaguely remembered tradition (Surid = Khufu) and Biblical stories and ancient myths.

[Scott Creighton]

13 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

And all this time I thought Ben Carson was among us. Lol joking. But in all seriousness, the only grain ever stored within the pyramids would have been including among the afterlife provisions for the deceased kings.

Well yes--AE kings would have placed grain (and other seed types) in their tombs but ususaly this was only small symbolic amounts in a few bowls (like that found in the tomb of King Tut). But when you consider the vast quantities of grain found in the various passages and galleries beneath the Step Pyramid in the early 20th century, this cache was way in excess of anything any AE king would ever take to his Afterlife. As stated--only a small symbolic amount of grain would be needed because with a few spells he could magic new grain (or anything else he needed) into existence in the Afterlife. Indeed, he might not even need the actiual bowls of seed at all. A wall painting depicting fields of grain could, with a few spells, be made into the real deal. The cache of grain (and other seed types) found below the Step Pyramid is far in excess of 'Afterlife goods'.

SC

Edited January 8, 2018 by Scott Creighton