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Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016


Hanslune
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4 minutes ago, Lord Fedorable said:

no, society is an mutually agreed upon construct, created and sustained by the individuals who consent to, and occassionally decide not to be, members of said society.

Reality simply is.

you are right that science is a process of understanding reality, and like society it's, for want of a better term, peer constructed. If you can't find any peers to help construct your process of understanding, it's not science. It might not be wrong, but it's not science.

No.  You are mistaken.

Arguing about the nature of "society" is pointless since it will always devolve into semantics.

But "science" has a single definition and nowhere does it say that reality is built by peers or only understood by peers.  "Peers" are irrelevant to science, reality, and even to true theory.  Only individuals have ideas.  Only individuals interpret theory.  Science is about hypothesis and experiment, not consensus.

Nobody understands reality and can only see tiny bits and pieces of it but modern man fills in the gaps by extrapolation and interpolation and then mistakes this as "reality".  Since our experiments have a very diverse set of conclusions we interpret this as knowing everything.  We are truly homo omnnisciencis.  We don't need to know why the swallows return to Capistrano or how many coconuts one can carry because we know everything else.

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9 minutes ago, cladking said:

No.  You are mistaken.

Arguing about the nature of "society" is pointless since it will always devolve into semantics.

But "science" has a single definition and nowhere does it say that reality is built by peers or only understood by peers.  "Peers" are irrelevant to science, reality, and even to true theory.  Only individuals have ideas.  Only individuals interpret theory.  Science is about hypothesis and experiment, not consensus.

Nobody understands reality and can only see tiny bits and pieces of it but modern man fills in the gaps by extrapolation and interpolation and then mistakes this as "reality".  Since our experiments have a very diverse set of conclusions we interpret this as knowing everything.  We are truly homo omnnisciencis.  We don't need to know why the swallows return to Capistrano or how many coconuts one can carry because we know everything else.

And you need to re-read what I said. Science is peer evalauated, not reality.

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21 hours ago, stereologist said:

Don't forget that the muon tomography is collecting information from only a small portion of the pyramid. There are a limited number of collecting points. If you take a look at the image I posted of the Fukushima reactor you will notice how low quality that image is, but it was sufficient to determine that the fuels was no longer in the reactor vessel.

Thanks for the info on the pyramid scans being limited in nature. I was not aware of that. Now correct me if i wrong but for the muon scans to work effectively there needs to be a collection plate or series of plates inside the object being scaned to collect the muons passing through the structure. In this case the plate or rather plates are already deep inside the pyramid collecting the muons. I doubt that any one has placed the same plates inside the remains of the Fukushima nuclear plant or at least not with the same coverage as those in the great pyramid. Another reason not to compare the two is the high radiation readings inside the nuclear plant would compromise the results. I think your comparison between Fukushima and the great pyramid might not be an accurate one. Remember that the bent pyramid has already been mapped, successfully.   

Edited by Silver_Lyre
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Quote

Dang, that does feel good.  I blew away a great deal of nonesense with nothing more than a highlight and a click.

The 'nonsense' shows were your NONSENSE has failed - you can continue doing what you are doing but no one is ever going to take you seriously - but then that has been your goal for last few years right?

Okay lay in your pit of ignorance and whine about not being understood. You don't want science to look at or understand your idea at the same time you are going to cry and whine that they won't look at it

Right makes perfect sense!!!

Quote

  I actually believe they know this virtually proves my theory so they're sitting on it until they can determine what's making their backside warm (see what I did there).

Again you are playing up your fantasy world where all of Egyptology is dancing to your tune.

The reality is you're an internet crank who wishes they were, heck you wish they even knew that you existed.

 

LOL

 

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3 hours ago, cladking said:

...And you've never told me where I can find a well written pdf that shows the pyramids were tombs built with ramps by people who were highly superstitious just like their descendents 1000 years later.

That's one nobody will ever see because it's entirely wrong.

Any bookshop in the world or the internet. However I do have to warn you they aren't written in gibberish so you might struggle with the ideas and big words. chuckle

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3 hours ago, cladking said:

Dang, that does feel good. 

For the lurkers this is a common reaction from Cladking he got to much information that didn't fit into his fantasy world were in that magical place he is a scientist whom all Egyptology is in fear of. He has all the answers and is just a great guy......

The stuff I was posting was making it very clear to him he is just a rejected nutbar no one pays any attention to - well except us and we do it for the comedy value!

 

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1 hour ago, cladking said:

I didn't say any alts or "skeptics" support my theory.

Nothing is what it appears.  Reality is a construct agreed upon by society.  Science is an attempt to make sense of reality by means of the effect of reality on experiment. 

How ironic that science has become a circular argument and the only way to break free lies just beyond the thermal anomaly. 

Well Cladking is having a rare case of telling the truth: no alts, fantasy or fringe support his view because - its to nuts for them and that is a staggering thing to imagine and he also supports that the AE built the pyramids at the time determined by the evil Egyptologist which is pure poison to most alts, fringers and fantasy believers.

Then he goes back to his own fantasy that there is some magical thing, "only way to break free lies just beyond the thermal anomaly".

Well the sad thing is once he passes the idea will die with him. Since he refuses to write it up.......

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19 hours ago, Mangoze said:

Could you clear up a few question for those of us who aren't as knowledgeable.

They can't scan the Pyramid the same way they can scan a truck, right?  With a truck they know where a muon originated - thus they "know" direction and deflection.

  • How do they know muons came from in the pyramid scans?
  • Aren't they merely detecting many more muons than expected?
  • Is this the reason for the inverted pyramid - to show a possible range of incoming direction?
  • "This excess has the shape of a straight line."  What are they actually referring to here - a mathematical function?

 

The muons come from outer space. They  are produced when high energy particles called cosmic rays hit the upper atmosphere. A muon is similar to an electron in that it has a negative charge. Charged particles interact which means they push each other around. The stronger the charge the more the push or pull. One of the strongest charge bunches around are atomic nuclei. If a muon passes by a nucleus it is attracted and deflects. Muons are moving fast. They swing around the nuclei. The heavier elements have larger nuclei and that means more positive charge in one spot so they deflect the muons more.

Imagine the rain of muons coming down towards us.Like an even rain it tends to hit everywhere in an area about the same. Imagine there was a lead shield above your head. The muons come through but tend to deflect away from you. Muons sensors around you notice more muons since many wold have come down through the lead are deflected to the side. You see less under the lead and more muons that normal in a ring around the lead. Outside of that would be the normal rain of muons. Remember that this is not so much blocking the muons but sending them on a new direction. Depending on how close the detectors are and the amount of deflection the excess muons can be seen in different locations relative to the lead over the head. If this were a case of blocking muons the detectors would not see the excess. You'd see less under the shield and the normal amount outside the shield.

The problem with the pyramid is that there is a tacit assumption of homogeneity of the material.  A rock like granite will deflect the muons in a way that is not the same as limestone. Limestone is predominately calcium carbonate. Granite is a little over half quartz which is silicon dioxide. most of the rest is feldspar. A little is mica and minerals that are iron and manganese based. The deflections occur in matter. Deflections do not occur in the voids. The muons also pass through varying thicknesses of rock. The trick in tomography is to collect a lot of information from different directions. That information is used to "reverse engineer" what must be out there to give those results. That is what an MRI and CAT scan do. None of these methods see the image that we so easily interpret. The raw data is a bunch of numbers showing some measurement along some direction. Tomography is figuring out what 3d object must be out there to give those results.

I'll have to go back and look at the image again with the inverted pyramid.

When they talk about the excess they mean the high muon measurements. The excess would be higher than average muons in certain places. They are seeing the excess forming a roughly straight line. This does not mean that the perceive void is a straight line. It just means that from the place hey took the measurements they have a line.

There are lots of possibilities to get this.

1. It could be a passageway

2. It could a number of unconnected voids

3. It could be fill

4. It could be a different type of rock

The form can be worked out by more data from more directions.

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8 hours ago, cladking said:

No!

The problem is that my theory hasn't been proven despite the fact we've had the technology to prove it right or wriong for over 50 years.  We've had the technology to answer how the pyramids were built for decades.

I said I was going to be patient but you et al won't give me a chance to be patient because you want to distort and twist the events, predictions, and data that exist to this time.  You take a simple misunderstanding of where the testing equipment was placed for what the results are for.  How you don't understand this or that this muon anomaly was found by a thermal scan that worked because there was heat behind stone pretty much astounds me.

You don't want to see the reality so you close your eyes to it.  You don't want to give up your cherished beliefs so you can't even entertain the notion that you are wrong about  everything.  There were no primitive or superstitious people until homo omnisciencis arose about 4000 years ago.  This may be the hardest part for most people to even understand, far less accept.

Actually you are the one that has lied and lied and lied about the reports. I want the reports to be read and discussed with your lies. Can  you do that?

The thermal scan is not how the anomaly was found. The thermal scan told about the exterior and only the exterior. A tiny portion of the pyramid is being scan with muon tomography in an area close to where some blocks showed higher temperatures. You continue to claim that the heat originated from inside the pyramid. I don't believe you. Please provide the evidence.

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3 hours ago, cladking said:

I didn't say any alts or "skeptics" support my theory.

As a rule the little support I do get is mostly from true skeptics.  These are individuals who learn to doubt what they are told or taught.  Most skeptics are of above or far above average intelligence.  Even among these skeptics none, so far as i know, can accept the entire theory and all of its implications.  They see things that have have a resounding in what they have learned on their own and they know of no reasons I'm necessarily incorrect.  These individuals have had diverse training in everything from biology to physics to metaphysics to engineering.

<snip>

You are confusing the term skeptic with the term scoffer. You are describing a scoffer that is why they scoff at your ideas as well.

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25 minutes ago, stereologist said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

 

 

Quote

3. It could be fill

Then why did they say that there's a 99.9999% chance it's a void?

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The thermal scan is not how the anomaly was found.

Then why did they say it was?  I've already linked this at least twice so you go back and look for it.

Quote

The thermal scan told about the exterior and only the exterior.

Then why do thermal scans at all?  Who cares about the exterior of the pyramid we can all see?

Quote

You continue to claim that the heat originated from inside the pyramid. I don't believe you. Please provide the evidence.

I made the statement and then provided proof that shouldn'tr have been needed at all.  Go back and look.

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2 hours ago, Silver_Lyre said:

Thanks for the info on the pyramid scans being limited in nature. I was not aware of that. Now correct me if i wrong but for the muon scans to work effectively there needs to be a collection plate or series of plates inside the object being scaned to collect the muons passing through the structure. In this case the plate or rather plates are already deep inside the pyramid collecting the muons. I doubt that any one has placed the same plates inside the remains of the Fukushima nuclear plant or at least not with the same coverage as those in the great pyramid. Another reason not to compare the two is the high radiation readings inside the nuclear plant would compromise the results. I think your comparison between Fukushima and the great pyramid might not be an accurate one. Remember that the bent pyramid has already been mapped, successfully.   

The muon capture can be done completely outside the pyramid. Other forms of tomography such as PET scans and CAT scans do everything external to the object being studied.

The Fukushima scans were all performed external to the reactors and a safe distance away.

Here is an article on muon tomography and I am fairly certain this is all done external to the crates.

https://lanl.gov/discover/news-release-archive/2008/October/10.07-muon-tomography.php

From this article we learn that work is being done to improve the image.

http://bme.ucdavis.edu/qilab/research-2/muon-tomography/

Here is one on volcanoes. It tells us that the muons are absorbed as well as deflected. It also tells us that the resolution of the volcano images is around 10m. That means pixels around the size of a house or maybe larger. The article also mentions doing tomography on pyramids. It mention a large number of projects to date. It mentions doing tomography from outside the pyramid. The inside mention allows for a 360 degree view which saves time.

http://www.sciencereviews2000.co.uk/blog_v2/view/science-progress-news/62/muon-tomography-looking-inside-dangerous-places/969#.WA6qsySiuM8

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1 minute ago, cladking said:

Then why did they say that there's a 99.9999% chance it's a void?

Then why did they say it was?  I've already linked this at least twice so you go back and look for it.

Then why do thermal scans at all?  Who cares about the exterior of the pyramid we can all see?

I made the statement and then provided proof that shouldn'tr have been needed at all.  Go back and look.

The void does not have to be air filled.

OK. You are lying again. The thermal scan did not find the voids. A search was simply made in the area where the thermal anomalies were seen. It seemed like a good place to do a search.

Why do thermal scans? You are kidding right? I don't think you have a clue. Let's see if you can figure it out.

You provided zero evidence and certainly no proof of the heat originating from inside of the pyramid. You are welcome to post your evidence for the first time since you have not done it to date.

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1 hour ago, stereologist said:

The void does not have to be air filled.

 

How many things are light enough that real scientists might refer to it as a "void"?

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16 minutes ago, cladking said:

How many things are light enough that real scientists might refer to it as a "void"?

Since when does a void have to be as you say "light enough"?

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23 minutes ago, cladking said:

How many things are light enough that real scientists might refer to it as a "void"?

Looking at 'void'  alone ( and subtracting your own additives );  

An open space or  ....  ( wait for it ) .......    a break in continuity; 

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/void

Edited by back to earth
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So here is the question that I think is more pertinent to the discussion: Is the void in the report something that could be passed through by a human at this time?

We think of a cave as voids in the bedrock. There are plenty of voids that cannot be traveled through. Some voids are too small. Some are choked by sediments. Some are choked by rockfall.

A void could be spaces between blocks filled with rubble. What if the voids are purposeful gaps to save on material.They reduce the volume required as well as reducing the weight bearing down on lower tiers. Maybe it is a passageway once planned, but relocated. Now it is just back filled with rubble. Maybe it is an internal ramp. Maybe the muon tomography has not been done with high enough resolution and this is an artifact of the sampling process.

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2 hours ago, stereologist said:

The muon capture can be done completely outside the pyramid. Other forms of tomography such as PET scans and CAT scans do everything external to the object being studied.

The Fukushima scans were all performed external to the reactors and a safe distance away.

Here is an article on muon tomography and I am fairly certain this is all done external to the crates.

https://lanl.gov/discover/news-release-archive/2008/October/10.07-muon-tomography.php

From this article we learn that work is being done to improve the image.

http://bme.ucdavis.edu/qilab/research-2/muon-tomography/

Here is one on volcanoes. It tells us that the muons are absorbed as well as deflected. It also tells us that the resolution of the volcano images is around 10m. That means pixels around the size of a house or maybe larger. The article also mentions doing tomography on pyramids. It mention a large number of projects to date. It mentions doing tomography from outside the pyramid. The inside mention allows for a 360 degree view which saves time.

http://www.sciencereviews2000.co.uk/blog_v2/view/science-progress-news/62/muon-tomography-looking-inside-dangerous-places/969#.WA6qsySiuM8

My understanding is that to determine whats INSIDE a building then plates need to be inserted and then collected after a period of time. In the case of the pyramid up to 40 days. I think that the muon test that you are describing is a different sort to the one that is being done to the pyramid. 

  

To look inside, the team had to place a plate of emulsion film inside the pyramid’s lower chamber to catch muons as they fell through the structure. After 40 days of exposure, the plates were collected and developed.

http://www.sciencealert.com/for-the-first-time-researchers-have-scanned-a-pyramid-using-cosmic-rays

 

 

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2 hours ago, stereologist said:

The void does not have to be air filled.

 

Stereo... the muon testing on building's and closed areas like the pyramid is accurate enough to distinguish an empty space as opposed to collapsed or fallen rubble. The muon testing being done on the great pyramid is the same that was done on the bent pyramid and that produced an actuate result. You might need to re-think your position.

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32 minutes ago, Silver_Lyre said:

My understanding is that to determine whats INSIDE a building then plates need to be inserted and then collected after a period of time. In the case of the pyramid up to 40 days. I think that the muon test that you are describing is a different sort to the one that is being done to the pyramid. 

  

To look inside, the team had to place a plate of emulsion film inside the pyramid’s lower chamber to catch muons as they fell through the structure. After 40 days of exposure, the plates were collected and developed.

http://www.sciencealert.com/for-the-first-time-researchers-have-scanned-a-pyramid-using-cosmic-rays

 

 

Fukishima had detectors on the outside.

Here is where my question about detection plates, in the Pyramid's chambers, arises. Can they derive the trajectory of a muon? Does incoming direction matter?

Volcano scanning uses telescopes which detect muon trajectory.  These types of devices are are also used in the scan pyramid project.

 

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7 minutes ago, Mangoze said:

Fukishima had detectors on the outside.

Here is where my question about detection plates, in the Pyramid's chambers, arises. Can they derive the trajectory of a muon? Does incoming direction matter?

Volcano scanning uses telescopes which detect muon trajectory.  These types of devices are are also used in the scan pyramid project.

 

Well I've already put up a source confirming the film/plates are required to be inside the pyramid. It sounds awfully like those old black and white camera's that required the subject be exposed to a long time in order to imprint the film. Only guessing of course, so if the film/plates inside the pyramid are fixed and not moved at all then there is every reason to believe that the trajectory and disbursement of the muons should be accurately recorded. Maybe this muon yech is also used in conjunction with other techs? Maybe someone better aquatinted with this tech could give a better answer. 

My two cents...  

Edited by Silver_Lyre
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51 minutes ago, Silver_Lyre said:

Well I've already put up a source confirming the film/plates are required to be inside the pyramid. It sounds awfully like those old black and white camera's that required the subject be exposed to a long time in order to imprint the film. Only guessing of course, so if the film/plates inside the pyramid are fixed and not moved at all then there is every reason to believe that the trajectory and disbursement of the muons should be accurately recorded. Maybe this muon yech is also used in conjunction with other techs? Maybe someone better aquatinted with this tech could give a better answer. 

My two cents...  

You're source is dated nine days after the press release #ScanPyramids – Results from the first measurements campaign in the Bent Pyramid.

I can see sciencealert.com used the phrase "... the team had to place a plate of emulsion film inside the pyramid’s lower chamber to catch muons as they fell through the structure."  I can't see #ScanPyramids echoing it is necessary for muon detectors to be placed inside a pyramid in order to scan it; neither in the above press realease, nor in Muons Detectors plates installed at Bent Pyramid and under sensitivity calibration in Khufu’s Pyramid.  It's appropriate - and safe to do so - to place the detectors in the lowest possible position to scan as much volume above.  That's my interpretation.

Anyway... according this video the plates do detect trajectory.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mangoze said:

You're source is dated nine days after the press release #ScanPyramids – Results from the first measurements campaign in the Bent Pyramid.

I can see sciencealert.com used the phrase "... the team had to place a plate of emulsion film inside the pyramid’s lower chamber to catch muons as they fell through the structure."  I can't see #ScanPyramids echoing it is necessary for muon detectors to be placed inside a pyramid in order to scan it; neither in the above press realease, nor in Muons Detectors plates installed at Bent Pyramid and under sensitivity calibration in Khufu’s Pyramid.  It's appropriate - and safe to do so - to place the detectors in the lowest possible position to scan as much volume above.  That's my interpretation.

Anyway... according this video the plates do detect trajectory.

 

 

From what I've read muon plates are used inside the pyramid because the stone and amount of it creates such a dense environment. And that's why they've chosen the lowest possible point to gather their information. 

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7 hours ago, Silver_Lyre said:

My understanding is that to determine whats INSIDE a building then plates need to be inserted and then collected after a period of time. In the case of the pyramid up to 40 days. I think that the muon test that you are describing is a different sort to the one that is being done to the pyramid. 

  

To look inside, the team had to place a plate of emulsion film inside the pyramid’s lower chamber to catch muons as they fell through the structure. After 40 days of exposure, the plates were collected and developed.

http://www.sciencealert.com/for-the-first-time-researchers-have-scanned-a-pyramid-using-cosmic-rays

 

 

The same process applies to the muon tomography regardless of viewing from inside or outside. The process is the same, but maybe there is a difference such as the typeof equipment available tothe team. Muons are absorbed by matter. As I pointed out in the links there is a site in Central America in which all of the detectors are outside. Going inside to the lowest chamber allows muons to be captured below ground level outside of the pyramid. To achieve the position from outside of the pyramid requires digging a hole outside. The volcano link tells us that horizontal muons need to be particularly energetic to get through the entire volcano. Therefore fewer are available and that means imaging takes a longer time and detectors need to be better.

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7 hours ago, Silver_Lyre said:

Stereo... the muon testing on building's and closed areas like the pyramid is accurate enough to distinguish an empty space as opposed to collapsed or fallen rubble. The muon testing being done on the great pyramid is the same that was done on the bent pyramid and that produced an actuate result. You might need to re-think your position.

The issue is the resolution of the results. There are many issues. In the volcano example the resolution was house sized pixels. That is huge. The group got it down to that size by collecting muons over a long period of time.

There are lots of issues affecting resolution.

1. The duration of the muon collection - more time leads to better results

2. The thickness of the material through which the muons pass - this is a much, much larger pyramid

3. Equipment -

If the rubble is chunks with lots of air gaps and not a solid fill such as sand, can the resolution distinguish between that and a narrower open passage - I doubt it. Unlike the Fukushima reactor image and some of the other pictures produced, has anyone seen a spatial reconstruction? I don't believe that the team is at that point in their work. What they do have is evidence of voids. What is the nature of those voids? Are they disconnected, connected, many small voids or a single large void?

Also, tomography requires many points of view to create a 3-d image. Think about your hand. Turn it one way and the shadow shows a hand on edge. You know there is a hand there but you can't tell how many fingers there are. Rotate the hand, equivalent to a new viewing orientation, and the fingers appear. What had been one is now 5. But you could just as well have rotated the hand in another plane and the fingers do not appear. Tomography applied to humans requires many orientations to produce image resolution that shows the structure of bones and organs. I am guessing that the orientations are limited in this project. It will 3, 4, or 5 at most leading uncertainty in the resolution.

Edited by stereologist
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