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Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016


Hanslune

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6 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

"Pyramid town akhet khufu" - something like that. I've discussed it many times before, if you care to look. The pyramid here is also a determinative (along with the 'town' sign).

SC

What's your source for that statement?  The Gardiner sign list does not list it as an ideogram or a determinative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_hieroglyphs#O

Also, I have never seen a case where they used a double determinative.  Can you supply an example from a real text to supplement your claim?  The only ones I can find always have a single determinative.

Edited by Kenemet
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1 hour ago, mstower said:

It comes from his looking at a dictionary entry and misunderstanding what he sees.  One of the words (there are several) meaning ‘flood’ is w3ḫ.  It has the syllable 3ḫ in it.  Creighton imagines that this is significant.

No idea how long.

M.

Thanks for the explanation is this like in English finding a world such as ergodicity and saying it has something to do with God because the letters g-o-d are in it?

 

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Just now, Hanslune said:

Thanks for the explanation is this like in English finding a world such as ergodicity and saying it has something to do with God because the letters g-o-d are in it?

Exactly so—saying that ‘orange’ has something to do with running etc.

M.

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18 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Returning to the Pyramid Texts portion of the discussion...

Firstly, these are not the first sixteen or thirteen completed pyramids (as you claim above.)  There are not sixteen or thirteen pyramid locations in the figure you supplied.  There are 11, and you counted them.  Of the eleven above, three are unfinished (and would have been hidden by sand)... therefore there's only eight.  

Eight (or even eleven) is not the same as sixteen or thirteen.  With eight points, pareidolia is very easy.  Two hundred points is a different matter.

Re "this pyramid"... the texts say "and his work" in at least two cases and it appears as you have noted in only two pyramids.  Not elsewhere.  Furthermore, the pyramids that say "this pyramid is Osiris" are not on your diagram.

In every other instance, "Osiris" refers to the king (and occasionally to his works) by name... and that occurs over a hundred times.  If they meant the building to be "Osiris" they would have said so consistently.  And this is the big weakness - throughout the history of Egypt, the dead king (and later the deceased people) are always referred to as "The Osiris (and their name.)"  On a rare occasion, a beloved animal is also designated an Osiris (Ta-Miaut is the one I know of but I'm prepared to find out that there are others.  The pyramids themselves are named - but none bears a name that includes Osiris.  

Finally, your timeline is inconsistent

You said earlier when we discussed the structure of the passageways and rooms that it took many tries for the Egyptians to get it right and implied that the Great Pyramid was the basic floor plan.  That meant that they knew what they were supposed to do and the GP existed before the Old Kingdom tombs and that in all the finished and unfinished pyramids they were trying to replicate the GP.

BUT...

If the GP is older and was designed as a "recovery vault" then why didn't they know exactly how to build the interior and exterior of these pyramids (the plans are not very complex)?  If they couldn't get in, why would they think it was a "recovery vault"?  If they could get in, why  didn't they scale down these and put them in all the major nome capitals (which would be the place for recovery to start.)  And finally, why would they put "recovery vaults" in cities that were NOT the nome capitals - the places where the bulk of the population and administration lived?  They planned other national recovery efforts.  Why did they suddenly have a huge logistical error in planning "recovery storehouses" for just this one thing?

 

Great stuff Kenemet. One observation. You are trying to have a scientific discussion over a claim that wasn't written to convince scientists that it was valid argument.Instead it was written to appeal to and entertain people who have a biased idea that orthodoxy is all wrong and aren't particularly concerned that it make any rational sense. Like decades ago people believed in Le Plongeon's 'translations' of Mayan writings.

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2 minutes ago, mstower said:

Exactly so—saying that ‘orange’ has something to do with running etc.

M.

We must convince him to write a paper on that. I'm sure all those hide bound 'in the box' linguists would lap it up.

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1 minute ago, Hanslune said:

How many times have you had this same discussion over this argument?

Too many.  One notes that he has quietly dropped the “Ra-ufu” idea.  Some progress has been made.

M.

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5 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Great stuff Kenemet. One observation. You are trying to have a scientific discussion over a claim that wasn't written to convince scientists that it was valid argument.Instead it was written to appeal to and entertain people who have a biased idea that orthodoxy is all wrong and aren't particularly concerned that it make any rational sense. Like decades ago people believed in Le Plongeon's 'translations' of Mayan writings.

You’ll be telling me next that Christ did not speak Mayan on the cross (a level of sublimity which will forever remain beyond the plodding of a Creighton).

M.

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9 minutes ago, mstower said:

Too many.  One notes that he has quietly dropped the “Ra-ufu” idea.  Some progress has been made.

M.

Yes Kenemet had a particularly 'Black hole of Calcutta' like experience with him over that same subject too.

So he just ignores his own bad info and keeps repeating it ala Cladking?

Edited by Hanslune
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6 minutes ago, mstower said:

You’ll be telling me next that Christ did not speak Mayan on the cross (a level of sublimity which will forever remain beyond the plodding of a Creighton).

M.

Well yes, its one of the aspects of fringe I see, three major types; a tiny minority that try to publish stuff using scientific methodology; Schoch is an example, those that try to publish such stuff but its just to incoherent to be printed anywhere but by vanity presses/fringe outlets and finally the majority. Always shouting at the evil orthodoxy but always well aware they are pretending all the outrage for the entertainment of the fringe hordes. I suspect this argument is a combination of 2 & 3.

Edited by Hanslune
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Scott may be getting his version of Axt from the ancient Egyptian word for the season of inundation: the season when the Nile would flood the valley. Here is how it's spelled in the glyphs (see the chart of hieroglyphs at top-right). I can't speak for Scott but this is the only thing I can figure.

But this version of Axt is the name of a season of the year, not a geographical event. There are several words for flood—Faulkner lists eight different versions, none of which are Axt. A common one is wAx, which mstower mentioned, and another is mtrw. And in referring to words for flood, a typical determinative is the grouping of three water ripples:

-date10-19-2014time06-24-19.jpg

Thats makes sense, which determinatives are supposed to. Another is the papyrus clump M14 (see here), which also is directly associated with water.

The point is, hieroglyphs usually maintain an internal logic. Otherwise, they wouldn't have functioned as a writing system. You can probably fool those who don't know hieroglyphs, whether or not you know them yourself, but concocting words and interpretations is usually pretty obvious to someone who's been trained. I guess I'd have to challenge Scott to show an inscription in which Axt was used to say "flood." I certainly don't claim to have all inscriptions memorized.

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4 hours ago, mstower said:

Thank you.  I have only a very limited ability to read hieroglyphs (and am better when I spend time reviewing my lessons on it.)

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7 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Scott may be getting his version of Axt from the ancient Egyptian word for the season of inundation: the season when the Nile would flood the valley. Here is how it's spelled in the glyphs (see the chart of hieroglyphs at top-right). I can't speak for Scott but this is the only thing I can figure.

But this version of Axt is the name of a season of the year, not a geographical event. There are several words for flood—Faulkner lists eight different versions, none of which are Axt. A common one is wAx, which mstower mentioned, and another is mtrw. And in referring to words for flood, a typical determinative is the grouping of three water ripples:

-date10-19-2014time06-24-19.jpg

Thats makes sense, which determinatives are supposed to. Another is the papyrus clump M14 (see here), which also is directly associated with water.

The point is, hieroglyphs usually maintain an internal logic. Otherwise, they wouldn't have functioned as a writing system. You can probably fool those who don't know hieroglyphs, whether or not you know them yourself, but concocting words and interpretations is usually pretty obvious to someone who's been trained. I guess I'd have to challenge Scott to show an inscription in which Axt was used to say "flood." I certainly don't claim to have all inscriptions memorized.

Beinf unlettered, I have (at times) enough difficulties grasping the English language. I will leave reading of AE glyphs to those more learned such as yourself or Kenemet. 

 I would point out that the M14 glyph your link shows bears a striking resemblance to the Papaver somniferum plant indicating possible early trade contact with the Sumerians.Maybe the trade road is far older than previous assertions and it could be renamed the "Poppy Parkway". :D

Edited by Jarocal
I sold Vyse the red paint
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8 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

 

Kmt_Sesh: Scott may be getting his version of Axt from the ancient Egyptian word for the season of inundation: the season when the Nile would flood the valley. Here is how it's spelled in the glyphs (see the chart of hieroglyphs at top-right). I can't speak for Scott but this is the only thing I can figure.

But this version of Axt is the name of a season of the year, not a geographical event.

SC: That’s correct, Kmt_Sesh. And I contend that the Crested ibis logogram with phonetic Ax+t (akhet) can also render the word ‘flood’ although this time the ‘Flood of Thoth’. I further contend that this particular reading of these signs is strengthened with the pyramid ‘Recovery Vault’ determinative (because that is why, according to the Coptic-Egyptian texts, the pyramids were built). This is not an unreasonable interpretation / reading of these particular signs.

Kmt_Sesh: There are several words for flood—Faulkner lists eight different versions, none of which are Axt.

SC: Indeed:

fG4q7Lw.jpg

Flood Season

And I contend that substituting the land with crops sign with the crseted ibis to give Ibis+kh+t (akhet) renders another form of flood - the (coming) Flood of Thoth. The pyramid Recovery Vault confirms this reading.

08xiWFp.jpg

Flood of Thoth

Kmt_Sesh: The point is, hieroglyphs usually maintain an internal logic. Otherwise, they wouldn't have functioned as a writing system.

SC: Well, of course. But the “internal logic” of ‘Flood of Thoth’ (with pyramid Recovery Vault determinative) is perfectly plain to understand. Unless, of course, you don’t actually want to understand it?

Kmt_Sesh: You can probably fool those who don't know hieroglyphs, whether or not you know them yourself, but concocting words and interpretations is usually pretty obvious to someone who's been trained. I guess I'd have to challenge Scott to show an inscription in which Axt was used to say "flood."

SC: See my interpretation above.  I showed in an earlier post how the term ‘Akhet Khufu’ is related to a pool (of water) with the rectangular sign below the loaf sign:

9OAhNvY.jpg

You can clearly see the double ellipse sign (the ‘two lands’) on both sides of the inscription. As you can see, this is clearly differentiated from the rectangle sign having rounded edges as opposed to straight edges. We see this in other renderings of this inscription:

uJKu0O5.jpg

(Note: I have inverted the top image for easier comparison with the image below it). The above two images appear to have been rendered by two different cylinder seals - some of the signs have been rendered different as is the spatial distances between signs.. As you can see, the rectangle sign in both impressions, has been rendered with straight edges and the ellipses all with rounded edges. Note also that the pyramid also sits atop a rectangle sign i.e. the pyramid rises out of water. There can be little doubt that the rectangle sign in this inscription is the logogram for ‘pool’ of water (Gardiner’s N37). I think the meaning here is perfectly clear – these signs are describing another form of the word ‘flood’ i.e.  the Great Inundation of Thoth witht he pyramid (as Recovery Vault) a valid determinative in this context.

SC

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8 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Scott may be getting his version of Axt from the ancient Egyptian word for the season of inundation: the season when the Nile would flood the valley. Here is how it's spelled in the glyphs (see the chart of hieroglyphs at top-right). I can't speak for Scott but this is the only thing I can figure.

Possibly he has this in mind (and we see he has), but the source he’s been citing on GHMB (the Dickson Dictionary) gives just ‘Inundation season’ for this, with no mention of ‘flood’ and no suggestion of its extension being floods in general.

M.

Edited by mstower
to take account.
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44 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

fG4q7Lw.jpg

08xiWFp.jpg

Were it not already clear that he is perpetrating the fallacy illustrated . . .

On this “reasoning”, Creighton is weighty.

M.

Edited by mstower
to simplify.
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Chris Tedder gave some attention to use of N18 versus use of N27:

https://sites.google.com/site/okadct/khufu'sakhet

N18 is preponderant, suggesting at once that the apparent use of N27 is variant or erroneous.  This cylinder seal (contra Creighton, most likely just the one) is, as already noted, dubiously of Old Kingdom date.

M.

Edited by mstower
to clarify.
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7 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Thank you.  I have only a very limited ability to read hieroglyphs (and am better when I spend time reviewing my lessons on it.)

Don’t let on, but mine is limited also.  Some things became need-to-know.

I find it hard not to see that hieroglyph as a hot cross bun.

M.

Edited by mstower
to add something.
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Ah so more, 'I am changing the reading/meaning of a hieroglyph to fit my agenda and I feel I must obligate you to except it or I'll repeat it'.

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On 12/5/2017 at 11:07 AM, Scott Creighton said:

fG4q7Lw.jpg

08xiWFp.jpg

We may note that Creighton has (as usual) failed to specify his source.  These are not from the Dickson Dictionary, the source he was using on GHMB, so presumably he found them somewhere else, or knocked them up in some program.  We would wish to know, to fully understand his sequence of equivocations.

According to Gardiner, the lotus pool (M8) and the crested ibis (G25) are both of them ideograms or semi-ideograms.  M8 does not by itself have phonetic value 3ḫ or 3ḫt, wheres G25 does have value 3ḫ.  (This gets complicated very quickly.)  The sequences presented above differ in both the (semi-)ideogram and the determinative.  All they have in common is the phonetic sequence ḫt.  Creighton imagines that this transmits the meaning ‘flood’ (dubiously present in the first) to the second.  This is simply wrong.  The one thing which could suggest this meaning is gone, and ḫt just by itself has other meanings, none of them ‘flood’.

The absence of N18/N27 will be noted, and how a flood becomes a pyramid is surely something of a mystery.

M.

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On 12/5/2017 at 11:07 AM, Scott Creighton said:

... I showed in an earlier post how the term ‘Akhet Khufu’ is related to a pool (of water) with the rectangular sign below the loaf sign:

9OAhNvY.jpg

 

The link from the UCL site, (originally posted by mstower), holder of that cylinder seal (image shown here), says (as I stated in a previous post) that the seal is "perhaps modern."

I'm therefore unable to see how it is possible to use that cylinder seal as valid supporting evidence for your hypothesis when its true age and provenance are in doubt.

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38 minutes ago, mstower said:

Also the wrong ibis: the ibis connected with ḏḥwty (Thoth) is not the crested ibis.

M.

Imagine that. :lol:

cormac

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5 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Imagine that. :lol:

cormac

I can't, usually SC material is greatly superior to all other worldly evidence. It uses absolutely authentic up to date research, linked with explanation of where it came from allied with a clear indication of his expertise in the subject manner. and cites where his material has been confirmed and agreed with by noted experts in the various fields..................................................................................................................:rofl:

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