Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[atalante]

Two actual birds, each of which had acquired a religious significance among early dynastic Egyptians, very likely disappeared in Egypt in centuries near the end of the Old Kingdom.  Egyptians had named those two birds the migratory bird Akh, and NON-migratory bird Ba.

 

from UCLA, about the Akh concept: https://escholarship.org/content/qt7255p86v/qt7255p86v.pdf

 

From the scholar himself (Jiri Janak), about the Akh concept and the Akh bird (= northern bald ibis): https://www.academia.edu/894641/Spotting_the_Akh._The_Presence_of_the_Northern_Bald_Ibis_in_Ancient_Egypt_and_Its_Early_Decline

 

From the scholar himself about a potential religious impact on ancient Egypt, when the actual Akh and Ba birds stopped appearing inside Egypt:  https://www.academia.edu/5811778/Extinction_of_Gods_Impact_of_Climatic_Change_on_Religious_Concepts

 

 

Edited December 9, 2017 by atalante

[cormac mac airt]

26 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

 

No, 1 and 10 WERE NOT transposed as that still puts the unfinished pyramid of Nebka SOUTH of Khaba, whereas it is actually NORTH of Khaba. 

cormac

[stereologist]

8 hours ago, Harte said:

 

mstower, you force me to read Scott's posts when you quote them.

Scott, what do you expect? You posted a piece of modern décor as a source for your claims.

Why wouldn't we think maybe you posted other similarly meaningless things on wiki?

Using your methodology, I could claim that this is evidence of ancient electric stovetops from the Canary Islands and therefore Atlantean:

Harte

That's actually the prophesy for the failed Russian ICBM launch over the White Sea about 8 years back.

[Harte]

No, actually it's what remains of a giant's thumbprint on the stone.

Harte

[mstower]

3 hours ago, mstower said:

Looking through the Vygus Dictionary, I find this combination (sans standard) as “the two Akh spirits (Nekhbet & Buto)” (= Nekhbet & Wadjet).

M.

Consulting Gardiner, this is a usage found in the Pyramid Texts.  Gardiner suggests that the strokes replaced human figures “deemed to be magically dangerous” and the translation he offers is “the two glorious ones”.

So becoming very specific as to source.

M.

[Scott Creighton]

3 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

No, 1 and 10 WERE NOT transposed as that still puts the unfinished pyramid of Nebka SOUTH of Khaba, whereas it is actually NORTH of Khaba. 

cormac

Thanks for pointing that out. Now sorted.

SC

[mstower]

No comment on this making sense and having an identifiable source, Scott?

M.

[cormac mac airt]

48 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

Thanks for pointing that out. Now sorted.

SC

So, first you were wrong. Then you were wrong with your correction. Now you're not even relevant to the layout as given in the original Osiris image:

I think the actual image is conclusive that you suffer from extreme pareidolia at this point. 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

And here's what one actually sees of the layout from the Bent Pyramid northward. There's no way to fit this into the Osiris layout and match:

cormac

[Kenemet]

4 hours ago, mstower said:

Looking through the Vygus Dictionary, I find this combination (sans standard) as “the two Akh spirits (Nekhbet & Buto)” (= Nekhbet & Wadjet).

M.

Questionable Budge Dictionary has the double akh+"t" + "//" (sans standard) as "pair of divine spirits" and "Isis and Nepthys."  I would be moderately confident in this translation.

[cormac mac airt]

An actual overlay image just to see how badly Creighton's image matches the pyramids on the ground:

cormac

Edited December 10, 2017 by cormac mac airt

[mstower]

20 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Questionable Budge Dictionary has the double akh+"t" + "//" (sans standard) as "pair of divine spirits" and "Isis and Nepthys."  I would be moderately confident in this translation.

If in Budge, a better chance of its having been seen.

M.

[kmt_sesh]

6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

One thing you may not have noticed, but there are two "/" signs under the bird on the standard (which you call the perch.)  That's the sign for plural... so you bad modern example which has made a hash of the signs is not even the sign for akh.

It is the same bird, but the ones in the real hieroglyphs are the singular form "Akh" (hence "akhet").  The fake "bird on a standard" actually is "multiple birds on a standard".  We have "akheru" (multiple akhs) on a standard... or maybe one akh on multiple standards.

...

Mstower already pointed this out but I want to clarify this point. The two slanted strokes usually indicate the dual case, with the suffix ending -wy. Three vertical strokes (or three of the same glyphs, often in older inscriptions) would indicate plurality.

The hieroglyphs on the touristy wall plaque Scott found are all genuine, but are just arranged higgledy-piggledy to look pretty, but very little of it says anything. It would be like throwing a bunch of English letters together randomly (hrusxwpzgh) for someone to see letters, but not to read anything,

Anyway, we can kinda-sorta read that snippet of glyphs with the dual marker. It's not Thoth because it's G25 instead of G26, so we have the crested ibis (which shouldn't be on a standard), bread loaf, and dual. It would spell the word Axtwy, "the pair of souls."

[kmt_sesh]

12 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

The image below (left) shows a number of 'crested ibis' used in the name 'Akhet Khufu'. The examples are from Chris Tedder's article here..

The example on the right is from the modern panel composition (Note: I inverted it to allow easier comparison with the other birds in the image).

Can you explain to me why the bird on the far right "is not crested"? Setting the 'standard perch' aside, why do you think this is not the same bird as those used in the 'Akhet Khufu' name on the left?

SC

EDIT: I should have added. Given that the drawings of 'Akhet Khufu' (above left) are clearly modern renditions, do you consider that these images are not "authentic inscriptions? Just because the location of the modern composition (the one on the right) has not been identified should not mean it does not actually exist - however much that may offend you.

The line drawings look perfectly acceptable. They're well done. The ibis at far right is from your wall plaque and is not accurate. So, yes, the ibises in the line drawing are G25, Ax, and form part of the word Axt-xwfw. They have nothing to do with Thoth. The ibis in the decorative plaque at right is incorrect because it's G25 and perched on a standard, and the standard indicates divinity. The G25 glyph is not used with divinity. It's generally used for the biliteral Ax. Remove the crest and the glyph becomes G26, and it is then a rebus for Thoth. But that specific arrangement of glyphs in the plaque doesn't say "DHwty," it says "Axtwy."

I know this must seem overly fussy, but such a thing is critical in hieroglyphs. Two similar-looking glyphs can produce entirely different meanings. Here on Gardiner's list, the swallow (G35) is often used for concepts of something great while the sparrow (G36) is often used for concepts of bad or weak. G35 is the biliteral wr and G36 is the triliteral bin. They might look pretty easily distinguishable here, but that's mainly because they're neat computer fonts. When you look at actual inscriptions, one of the only ways you can tell them apart is the swallow's tail feathers are indented at the tip whereas the sparrow's are flatter. The differences between G25 and G26 are more evident, but just the same, they're used for specific things and mean different things.

[kmt_sesh]

39 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Questionable Budge Dictionary has the double akh+"t" + "//" (sans standard) as "pair of divine spirits" and "Isis and Nepthys."  I would be moderately confident in this translation.

LOL You already arrived at the same outcome before I posted about it. Budge is definitely a questionable source in most matters but he did publish really nice hieroglyphs. And in this instance I'd say he's right. 

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Mstower already pointed this out but I want to clarify this point. The two slanted strokes usually indicate the dual case, with the suffix ending -wy. Three vertical strokes (or three of the same glyphs, often in older inscriptions) would indicate plurality.

The hieroglyphs on the touristy wall plaque Scott found are all genuine, but are just arranged higgledy-piggledy to look pretty, but very little of it says anything. It would be like throwing a bunch of English letters together randomly (hrusxwpzgh) for someone to see letters, but not to read anything,

Anyway, we can kinda-sorta read that snippet of glyphs with the dual marker. It's not Thoth because it's G25 instead of G26, so we have the crested ibis (which shouldn't be on a standard), bread loaf, and dual. It would spell the word Axtwy, "the pair of souls."

Thanks to you and Mstower.  I still can't find my Collier & Manley, but other sources (which are good enough for a casual course in hieroglyphs but not nearly enough to do freehand translation) confirm what you have said.   I'm redownloading Allen's Middle Egyptian (sigh.)  

You really do have to keep up with a foreign language - otherwise it vanishes from your memory.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Kenemet

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

LOL You already arrived at the same outcome before I posted about it. Budge is definitely a questionable source in most matters but he did publish really nice hieroglyphs. And in this instance I'd say he's right. 

However, in the lines after that one, he goes off into some sort of reading that I'm rather suspicious of... and there's an awful lot of things that he thinks are names of deities that seem a bit off.  Of course, granted the number of deities and local guardian spirits they had....

[kmt_sesh]

54 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

However, in the lines after that one, he goes off into some sort of reading that I'm rather suspicious of... and there's an awful lot of things that he thinks are names of deities that seem a bit off.  Of course, granted the number of deities and local guardian spirits they had....

I haven't thought about that in a very long time, but I remember the first time I looked through Budge's two-volume dictionary (I still have the set), it seemed to me everything he didn't know how to translate, he figured to be deities. 

[Kenemet]

So anyway... how 'bout them voids?

[kmt_sesh]

Voids? What voids? I actually tried to get us back on to that subject several pages back...and it didn't survive beyond my post.

[Kenemet]

1 minute ago, kmt_sesh said:

Voids? What voids? I actually tried to get us back on to that subject several pages back...and it didn't survive beyond my post.

Y'see, darlin', this buncha yahoos is from the northeast an' they thought ya done said "boids."  So they been talkin' about them there flappy-thangs.

An bassets.  Ah distinctly remember bassets.

[kmt_sesh]

1 minute ago, Kenemet said:

Y'see, darlin', this buncha yahoos is from the northeast an' they thought ya done said "boids."  So they been talkin' about them there flappy-thangs.

An bassets.  Ah distinctly remember bassets.

Boid brains.

[ShadowSot]

 

[mstower]

Da boid is on da wing.

M.

[mstower]

10 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Mstower already pointed this out but I want to clarify this point. The two slanted strokes usually indicate the dual case, with the suffix ending -wy. Three vertical strokes (or three of the same glyphs, often in older inscriptions) would indicate plurality.

The hieroglyphs on the touristy wall plaque Scott found are all genuine, but are just arranged higgledy-piggledy to look pretty, but very little of it says anything. It would be like throwing a bunch of English letters together randomly (hrusxwpzgh) for someone to see letters, but not to read anything,

Anyway, we can kinda-sorta read that snippet of glyphs with the dual marker. It's not Thoth because it's G25 instead of G26, so we have the crested ibis (which shouldn't be on a standard), bread loaf, and dual. It would spell the word Axtwy, "the pair of souls."

A little boid tells me -ty for the feminine, so 3ḫty (as Vygus and Gardiner).

M.