Update on Scan Pyramid project Oct 2016

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, mstower said:

Obtusely I overlooked that this is a standard writing of Ḏḥtwy (Thoth):

It may appear in such abbreviated forms as this:

This one is predefined in Serge Rosmudorc’s JSesh (which is what I’m using, obviously).

The strokes here are purely phonetic: no dual.

Here is a version:

M.

Yeah, well duh. I just feel plain stupid. Thanks for the reminder.

Editing to add: Thanks for the reminder about this spelling of Thoth, not the reminder I'm stupid. I already know that. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by kmt_sesh
Clarification

[kmt_sesh]

17 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Thanks Kmt_Sesh. That's probably it (U28) although the sign in the Thoth image seems more squat/bloated. I see it's a logogram for "live long, prosper and be healthy". Any idea as to the root of this sign?

SC

Mstower answered it exactly as I would, so let's go with that. I just can't get on the forum as often as I'd like.

[mstower]

12 hours ago, mstower said:

JSesh has these as G31E and G26C:

M.

Most of the work on extending sign lists has been done in connection with computer encodings and fonts.  Naturally we mourn the passing of the CCER (Centre for Computer-aided Egyptological Research).  Someone has preserved this:

http://hieroglyphes.pagesperso-orange.fr/CCER-Hieroglyphica.htm

The Extended Library (or just the site) would seem to be the source of the version of G31E used by UCL:

Not sure I entirely follow this:

https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/egyptian/standards/signlists.html

About the JSesh Glyphs Library:

http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/glyphs

M.

Edited December 14, 2017 by mstower
to be more positive.

[mstower]

I am at this point pretty much inclined to give up, as the editor keeps playing stupid tricks.

M.

Edited December 14, 2017 by mstower
because the editor is insane.

[mstower]

CCER:

UCL:

Looks like someone just used the GIF as found: the files are identical.

I have sent a query to UCL about the wrong bird being used.

M.

Edited December 14, 2017 by mstower
to add something.

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, mstower said:

I am at this point pretty much inclined to give up, as the editor keeps playing stupid tricks.

M.

So the hieroglyph is confirmed... but not its usage in the name of Thoth, correct?  It could be a hapex legomenom or even a local usage - heaven knows we've seen many scribal mistakes in the past.  But as far as we know, the hieroglyphs in the modern image of Thoth could have come from anywhere.

[mstower]

45 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

So the hieroglyph is confirmed... but not its usage in the name of Thoth, correct?  It could be a hapex legomenom or even a local usage - heaven knows we've seen many scribal mistakes in the past.  But as far as we know, the hieroglyphs in the modern image of Thoth could have come from anywhere.

A hieroglyph G31E is listed:

CCER:

JSesh:

There is no information about usage and certainly no connection with Thoth specified.

Spotted just this moment, both CCER and JSesh show a variant G25A (G25 being crested ibis).

CCER:

JSesh:

This could account in part for the erroneous nome emblem.

What is certainly absent from the extended list (or lists?) is any suggestion of crested ibis on standard.

We know that these are attested:

 

Our artist/designer could have concocted a blend, but this is a busy hypothesis.  Simpler explanation is that our artist had no knowledge of the second and added the crest to the first through thinking that it looked better and perhaps just not knowing the difference.

M.

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by mstower
for reasons of pedantry.

[mstower]

For those who would really wish to get into this, Hieroglyphica is available here:

https://www.academia.edu/4180892/GRIMAL_N._HALLOF_J._VAN_DER_PLAS_D._VAN_DEN_BERG_H._HALLOF_G._Hieroglyphica_second_edition_2000

These are interesting papers:

http://www.egpz.org/docs/AnalysisOfSomeMdCCodedTexts.pdf

http://unicode.org/L2/L2016/16257-n4751-hieroglyphs-new.pdf

M.

[mstower]

The response I have from UCL is to the effect that the Digital Egypt site is now frozen as a 2003 publication (through lack of funds to do anything else with it), but if opportunity arises in future, the sign in question will be amended:

M.

[Kenemet]

As long as we're dropping AE stuff here (we might have a dedicated thread for this sometime), Vygus has updated his dictionary.  There's now over 40,000 words (so I'm told.)

 

...and no Thoth with a crested ibis.  

http://rhbarnhart.net/VYGUS_Dictionary_2018.pdf

[kmt_sesh]

22 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

As long as we're dropping AE stuff here (we might have a dedicated thread for this sometime), Vygus has updated his dictionary.  There's now over 40,000 words (so I'm told.)

 

...and no Thoth with a crested ibis.  

http://rhbarnhart.net/VYGUS_Dictionary_2018.pdf

He forgot about it? Holy crap! Such a boid brain.

This thread has strayed wildly into different areas, so if you think it would be worthwhile, feel free to start a new thread about this subject. As long as it stays updated occasionally, it might be useful to us Egypt nerds.

[Harte]

19 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

He forgot about it? Holy crap! Such a boid brain.

This thread has strayed wildly into different areas, so if you think it would be worthwhile, feel free to start a new thread about this subject. As long as it stays updated occasionally, it might be useful to us Egypt nerds.

I.e, those who enjoy wrap music.

Harte

[kmt_sesh]

43 minutes ago, Harte said:

I.e, those who enjoy wrap music.

Harte

What's my favorite dish at Thanksgiving?

Dressing, of course.

[Likely Guy]

1 hour ago, kmt_sesh said:

What's my favorite dish at Thanksgiving?

Dressing, of course.

I thought you would have said stuffing.

[mstower]

6 hours ago, Kenemet said:

As long as we're dropping AE stuff here (we might have a dedicated thread for this sometime), Vygus has updated his dictionary.  There's now over 40,000 words (so I'm told.)

 

...and no Thoth with a crested ibis.

It reminds me of this, for some reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brawJsSUtxk

M.

[Scott Creighton]

On 12/14/2017 at 3:17 AM, kmt_sesh said:

Mstower answered it exactly as I would, so let's go with that. I just can't get on the forum as often as I'd like.

Thanks Kmt_sesh.  Any idea what the sign to the right (image below) might represent?

From here.

There isn't an AE dictionary I have that seems to use this sign but it is surely attested somewhere. I presume it's a logogram or determinative.

SC

Edited December 23, 2017 by Scott Creighton

[mstower]

1 hour ago, Scott Creighton said:

Thanks Kmt_sesh.  Any idea what the sign to the right (image below) might represent?

From here.

There isn't an AE dictionary I have that seems to use this sign but it is surely attested somewhere. I presume it's a logogram or determinative.

SC

Trying to turn a pyramid into a granary?  Good luck with that.

CCER version:

Whether or not it’s a logogram or determinative depends on the context of use.  Yes, it is surely attested somewhere.  You need to find out where, and whether any reading you may wish to suggest is plausible in that context.  This paper (already mentioned, in the same post as the Hieroglyphica link):

http://unicode.org/L2/L2016/16257-n4751-hieroglyphs-new.pdf

—treats it as a variant on the theme of grain mound on mud floor, much as you suggested earlier in the context of that Roman-era inscription.  If this is correct, the pointy thing is a mound of grain (and not a pyramid).

A for effort.

M.

[kmt_sesh]

Goodness, mstower beats me to the punch every time. I'm definitely getting old. And slow.

[Scott Creighton]

8 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Goodness, mstower beats me to the punch every time. I'm definitely getting old. And slow.

Kmt_sesh,

A grain mound (unless it is damp) will typically present a rounded peak and NOT a pointed peak like in a pyramid. The sign O250 is simply NOT a typical mound of grain on a mud floor. The AEs actually have a specific sign (M35) for a mound of grain – and yes, it has a rounded top:

Over and above which, the original interpreters of AE texts have clearly classified O250 (along with O51 & its variants) as a BUILDING and NOT as a ‘Tree or Plant – ‘M’.

Typically a grain storage facility in ancient Egypt can have a flat roof or a barrel roof such as this:

From: here.

Hence the O51 signs with flat and barrelled roofs. But there’s a sign there that has also been classified as a BUILDING for grain storage and it has a pointed roof. What do you think such a structure with a pointed roof like this could be?

SC

Edited December 24, 2017 by Scott Creighton

[kmt_sesh]

I'm not sure what more I could add to that topic. I searched my books and can't find an explanation. Hieroglyphs often aren't literal depictions. What matters most is how it's used in context, within an inscription, and especially with other bi/triliterals and phonetic complements. If the pointy glyph is clearly used in the context of the spelling Snwt, then it's definitely representing a granary.

[kmt_sesh]

Here's a new article on the ScanPyramids project:

The great pyramid

• "Ikram explains that the void’s purpose may have been a functional one. “Possibly, the void was used for manipulating blocks, as well as providing a way in and out of the pyramid during its construction,” she says."

I've always liked Salima Ikram. She's honest and highly intelligent. She's also quoted:

• "I doubt that, in this generation, anyone will obtain access to the void, unless there is some way of teleporting into it without damaging the structure,”

So all in all it doesn't tell us much new, but I think more than a few of us are hungry for information.

[Lord Harry]

It is clear what this void represents.  It is nothing less than a network of passages and chambers directly corresponding to those that have been documented and mapped below.  Khufu's antechambers complete with his grave goods likely await discovery inside the hidden antechambers, and perhaps the royal mummy itself remains undisturbed in the true King's Chamber.  I suspect that what has been previously documented was nothing less than a series of decoy passages and chambers, designed to deter tomb robbers.  The granite sarcophagus was likely placed in situ in its current, "damaged" state in order to convince any potential robbers that the pyramid had been looted of its contents.

If you look at the void as it appears in the images which have been released by the project, it corresponds approximately in length and girth to the grand gallery beneath it, which suggests to me that it is at least probable that Egyptology is on the verge of discovering an intact pyramid burial.  How amazing that would be!  The first intact  royal pyramid burial ever discovered!  I know I am probably a lonely voice crying in the wilderness, even among my fellow Egyptologists.  However, I am not of the persuasion that the pyramids could have been looted during the Old Kingdom.  During that period, the central government was strong, and any potential tomb robbers would have been quickly apprehended and brought to justice. 

In a similar vein, I find it unlikely that the Giza Pyramids were looted during the First Intermediate Period.  If you doubt this, consider my logic here.  Egyptian royalty continued to be buried in pyramids throughout the Middle Kingdom and First Intermediate Period.  If the Old Kingdom pyramids had been previously looted, the Egyptian rulers would have undoubtedly been aware of this.  Why then, would the kings have continued to commission pyramids for their burials if that particular type of tomb had failed to protect the royal remains and grave goods from robbers?  And the pyramids of the Middle Kingdom were of an inferior design no less, and would have been much easier to break into than the giant pyramids of the Fourth Dynasty! 

It was only with the New Kingdom, that Egyptian pharaohs began to commission an alternative form of tomb to protect their mortal remains.  However, this may have had to do with the geographical layout of the Theban Valley of the Kings, rather than any inherent design flaws within the pyramid structures themselves.  The Valley of the Kings was in fact shaped like a massive pyramid.  A pyramid which could contain dozens of royal burials rather than just one.  Thus it fulfilled the theological requirements of Egyptian mortuary mythology.

[Jarocal]

2 hours ago, Lord Harry said:

It is clear what this void represents.  It is nothing less than a network of passages and chambers directly corresponding to those that have been documented and mapped below.  Khufu's antechambers complete with his grave goods likely await discovery inside the hidden antechambers, and perhaps the royal mummy itself remains undisturbed in the true King's Chamber.  I suspect that what has been previously documented was nothing less than a series of decoy passages and chambers, designed to deter tomb robbers.  The granite sarcophagus was likely placed in situ in its current, "damaged" state in order to convince any potential robbers that the pyramid had been looted of its contents.

If you look at the void as it appears in the images which have been released by the project, it corresponds approximately in length and girth to the grand gallery beneath it, which suggests to me that it is at least probable that Egyptology is on the verge of discovering an intact pyramid burial.  How amazing that would be!  The first intact  royal pyramid burial ever discovered!  I know I am probably a lonely voice crying in the wilderness, even among my fellow Egyptologists.  However, I am not of the persuasion that the pyramids could have been looted during the Old Kingdom.  During that period, the central government was strong, and any potential tomb robbers would have been quickly apprehended and brought to justice. 

In a similar vein, I find it unlikely that the Giza Pyramids were looted during the First Intermediate Period.  If you doubt this, consider my logic here.  Egyptian royalty continued to be buried in pyramids throughout the Middle Kingdom and First Intermediate Period.  If the Old Kingdom pyramids had been previously looted, the Egyptian rulers would have undoubtedly been aware of this.  Why then, would the kings have continued to commission pyramids for their burials if that particular type of tomb had failed to protect the royal remains and grave goods from robbers?  And the pyramids of the Middle Kingdom were of an inferior design no less, and would have been much easier to break into than the giant pyramids of the Fourth Dynasty! 

It was only with the New Kingdom, that Egyptian pharaohs began to commission an alternative form of tomb to protect their mortal remains.  However, this may have had to do with the geographical layout of the Theban Valley of the Kings, rather than any inherent design flaws within the pyramid structures themselves.  The Valley of the Kings was in fact shaped like a massive pyramid.  A pyramid which could contain dozens of royal burials rather than just one.  Thus it fulfilled the theological requirements of Egyptian mortuary mythology.

Paragraphs 1&2- Pure conjecture on your part and the Cabal is not pleased...

As punishment you must debate Kmt Sesh on Hancock's "Ancient Lost civilization built the Giza complex and Khufu merely repaired/altered existing structures to suit his purpose". You will of course be arguing in favor of Hancock's unevidenced and baseless conjectures out of the box assertions, and Kmt will be arguing from the reasonably evidenced Egyptological standpoint.

 

[Lord Harry]

Just now, Jarocal said:

Paragraphs 1&2- Pure conjecture on your part and the Cabal is not pleased...

As punishment you must debate Kmt Sesh on Hancock's "Ancient Lost civilization built the Giza complex and Khufu merely repaired/altered existing structures to suit his purpose". You will of course be arguing in favor of Hancock's unevidenced and baseless conjectures out of the box assertions, and Kmt will be arguing from the reasonably evidenced Egyptological standpoint.

 

Lol! Well, it is Christmas Eve and I had a few beers. Like I told a friend if mine a while back, anything I post while buzzed can't be held against me later.

With that being said, while I agree my above is largely conjectural, I also believe it to be a plausible hypothesis that should be looked into. Prepare for a relevant article which I will post shortly.

[Jarocal]

7 minutes ago, Lord Harry said:

Lol! Well, it is Christmas Eve and I had a few beers. Like I told a friend if mine a while back, anything I post while buzzed can't be held against me later.

With that being said, while I agree my above is largely conjectural, I also believe it to be a plausible hypothesis that should be looked into. Prepare for a relevant article which I will post shortly.

Coincidentally so have I.

 Certainly alcohol is an appropriate preparatory solution for some of the assertions you will read here. Banjo and dulcimer (mountain or hammered) instrumental music is also very helpful.