Patent for second-generation EmDrive revealed

[UM-Bot]

EmDrive inventor Roger Shawyer has received a new patent for the next version of his 'impossible' engine.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/299939/patent-for-second-generation-emdrive-revealed

[Chortle]

Being entirely ignorent what is the controversy surrounding this engine has it not been field tested yet or his article peer reviewed?

[Nnicolette]

21 minutes ago, Chortle said:

Being entirely ignorent what is the controversy surrounding this engine has it not been field tested yet or his article peer reviewed?

It was first called impossible and a fluke because nobody quite understood how it produced thrust. Its hard for people to understand new concepts when they are a little too set in thinking they already know how everything works. I am so glad to see they got past that line of thinking.

[Grey Area]

18 minutes ago, Chortle said:

Being entirely ignorent what is the controversy surrounding this engine has it not been field tested yet or his article peer reviewed?

It is apparently a device that is able to generate thrust without exhaust, currently understood to be impossible.  Yet, every prototype tested by multiple independent bodies has reported that a very small yet significant force was detected.

My understanding is that this has yet to be tested in a vacuum.  It is an exciting concept if it is viable.

[Chortle]

1 hour ago, Grey Area said:

It is apparently a device that is able to generate thrust without exhaust, currently understood to be impossible.  Yet, every prototype tested by multiple independent bodies has reported that a very small yet significant force was detected.

My understanding is that this has yet to be tested in a vacuum.  It is an exciting concept if it is viable.

Ok so not tested in a vacuum I'd read the various articles first time round and found little detail about testing or peer review. Some detail on how it worked but not a vast amount. Would this be faster than propellant enginges? Or just more cost effective?

[paperdyer]

If this EmDrive really works, we'll have to rewrite the laws of physics, won't we?  Imagine cars, trains, busses, etc., all running on EmDrives.  Of course without proper shielding all of our electronic gear will be useless.

[Grey Area]

2 hours ago, Chortle said:

Ok so not tested in a vacuum I'd read the various articles first time round and found little detail about testing or peer review. Some detail on how it worked but not a vast amount. Would this be faster than propellant enginges? Or just more cost effective?

It's much much more fuel efficient as the drive does not require any propellant simply an electric charge.  

As it stands the amount of thrust is negligible, at the moment the em drive makes an ion drive look like an afterburner.

Wiki page

2 hours ago, paperdyer said:

If this EmDrive really works, we'll have to rewrite the laws of physics, won't we? 

Well as I understand it, I think it is more misunderstood than anything else.  there is an explanation but I can't for the life of me remember what the exact explanation was, it would also appear the subject has moved on significantly, so I think much of the actual data is being withheld to keep potential investors interested.

[Charles2]

NASA reported a successful test in a hard vacuum last year. Here is the link: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2015/04/evaluating-nasas-futuristic-em-drive/

[paperdyer]

33 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

It's much much more fuel efficient as the drive does not require any propellant simply an electric charge.  

As it stands the amount of thrust is negligible, at the moment the em drive makes an ion drive look like an afterburner.

Wiki page

Well as I understand it, I think it is more misunderstood than anything else.  there is an explanation but I can't for the life of me remember what the exact explanation was, it would also appear the subject has moved on significantly, so I think much of the actual data is being withheld to keep potential investors interested.

Withholding information, if I were an investor, would make me think it's a scam and not the real thing.

[paperdyer]

I just looked for the patent.  The newest one I can find is from 1996   The fees were never paid and the patent lapsed quickly.  There is another patent for this company by a George Cohen for an antenna.  The patents fees were kept up but the patent was sold to a bank.

[Sundew]

It might be impractical on Earth, but in space with little or no friction, and no bulky payload of fuel, it could be the way to go if it is scaleable and actually works as stated. 

[paperdyer]

30 minutes ago, Sundew said:

It might be impractical on Earth, but in space with little or no friction, and no bulky payload of fuel, it could be the way to go if it is scaleable and actually works as stated. 

With today's lubricants, the friction from the wheels isn't too great or you wouldn't be able to push a car that's in neutral.  Wind drag may be a issue, though.

[psyche101]

15 hours ago, paperdyer said:

If this EmDrive really works, we'll have to rewrite the laws of physics, won't we?  Imagine cars, trains, busses, etc., all running on EmDrives.  Of course without proper shielding all of our electronic gear will be useless.

Apparently not.

From the link:

“People think it’s black magic or something, but it’s not. Any physicist worth his salt should understand how it works, or if they don’t, they should change their profession.”

[+DieChecker]

Cheaper can only be better. We may have the interstellar ability to visit that newly found planet at Alpha Centari sooner then we thought.

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Apparently not.

From the link:

“People think it’s black magic or something, but it’s not. Any physicist worth his salt should understand how it works, or if they don’t, they should change their profession.”

I cannot for the life of me find, or remember the proffered explanation that solves the Third Law issue, it was something about internal reactions.  Anyway I cannot see anything at the moment, so I think scepticism is healthy, and criticism at the tests currently done is spot on, the thrusts were so low, a butterfly farting 1000 miles away could have been mistaken for the reported thrust. 

Still an exciting project to keep an eye on.

[psyche101]

18 hours ago, Grey Area said:

I cannot for the life of me find, or remember the proffered explanation that solves the Third Law issue, it was something about internal reactions.  Anyway I cannot see anything at the moment, so I think scepticism is healthy, and criticism at the tests currently done is spot on, the thrusts were so low, a butterfly farting 1000 miles away could have been mistaken for the reported thrust. 

Still an exciting project to keep an eye on.

According to the researchers, the exhaust being blasted out is actually light, or more specifically, photons that have become paired up with another out-of-phase photon in order to shoot out of the metal cavity and produce thrust. 

So if that's the case, why hasn't anyone detected it before?

The researchers predict that's because photons need to become paired up in order to escape the fuel cavity, so that the two photons in those pairs are out of phase, which means they completely cancel each other out and have no net electromagnetic field. If you think of it like waves of water, if the crest of one wave occurs at the exact same time as the trough of another, they'll cancel each other out and produce a flat patch of water - despite the fact that two waves are still passing through it. 

That's what's happening with the photons, so, in other words, the exhaust photons become invisible from an electromagnetic point of view because they're being masked by their out-of-sync partner.

"The EM drive operates by the same principle, for example, as a jet engine, where the high speed exhaust gases backwards (opposite reaction) push the airplane forwards," one of the researchers Arto Annila, told ScienceAlert over email.  

"Light at microwave lengths is the fuel that's being fed into the cavity ... and the EM drive exhausts backwards paired photons," he says. "When two photons travel together, but having opposite phases, then the pair has no net electromagnetic field, and hence it will not reflect back from the metal walls, but goes through."

And those escaping photons are the equal and opposite reaction that's producing the EM drive's thrust.

To be clear, this is just a hypothesis based on theoretical calculations. But it's not the first time photons have been used to propel spacecraft forward - it's also the idea that Bill Nye's solar sail is based on.

 

LINK

 

 

[+DieChecker]

8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

According to the researchers, the exhaust being blasted out is actually light, or more specifically, photons that have become paired up with another out-of-phase photon in order to shoot out of the metal cavity and produce thrust. 

So if that's the case, why hasn't anyone detected it before?

The researchers predict that's because photons need to become paired up in order to escape the fuel cavity, so that the two photons in those pairs are out of phase, which means they completely cancel each other out and have no net electromagnetic field. If you think of it like waves of water, if the crest of one wave occurs at the exact same time as the trough of another, they'll cancel each other out and produce a flat patch of water - despite the fact that two waves are still passing through it. 

That's what's happening with the photons, so, in other words, the exhaust photons become invisible from an electromagnetic point of view because they're being masked by their out-of-sync partner.

"The EM drive operates by the same principle, for example, as a jet engine, where the high speed exhaust gases backwards (opposite reaction) push the airplane forwards," one of the researchers Arto Annila, told ScienceAlert over email.  

"Light at microwave lengths is the fuel that's being fed into the cavity ... and the EM drive exhausts backwards paired photons," he says. "When two photons travel together, but having opposite phases, then the pair has no net electromagnetic field, and hence it will not reflect back from the metal walls, but goes through."

And those escaping photons are the equal and opposite reaction that's producing the EM drive's thrust.

To be clear, this is just a hypothesis based on theoretical calculations. But it's not the first time photons have been used to propel spacecraft forward - it's also the idea that Bill Nye's solar sail is based on.

 

LINK

 

 

Interesting...

But, you'd think that could still test that by placing a light absorbing material in the thrust path and see if they gain energy from that vector. The photons aren't destroyed, but are paired, so they should still act like photons and be absorbed by certain materials.

[psyche101]

On 10/21/2016 at 10:35 PM, DieChecker said:

Interesting...

But, you'd think that could still test that by placing a light absorbing material in the thrust path and see if they gain energy from that vector. The photons aren't destroyed, but are paired, so they should still act like photons and be absorbed by certain materials.

It would probably slow it down wouldn't it? 

When the photons are absorbed, they will be converted to heat, which will just escape into space wont it? It would be best to funnel them for thrust I would think? 

[ChrLzs]

Just a word or three of caution.  Patent does not mean "we've tested it and it works".  Many, many patented things never get built because they simply do not work.

While I was initially enthusiastic about the EM drive, I'm getting a bit tired of hearing about 'Eagleworks' (a very tiny (and extremely underfunded) division of NASA) promises that their results are/ will be fully peer reviewed and replicated.  They have made serious errors in their approach before, and rightly, those who might peer review and thence replicate their new claims/results are rather thin on the ground.  To date only one small-ish publication has accepted it (and I see no trace of the peer review process yet) and certainly zero replication..  Nor do I see any attempt to explain how it violates 'the Law'..

 

I'll now wait to see a published paper and the reviews from high ranking experts in this field, where they properly address everything (it's not just the vacuum issue) that could account for the vanishingly tiny amount of thrust that is alleged to be produced.  I'm afraid I am going to pessimistically bet that this is another example of what might be called the Cold-Fusion/Faster-Than-Light Syndrome.

 

Sorry, and yes I'm a stick in the mud.  

[ChrLzs]

Oh, and just to make this interesting and put my money where my mouth is...  I'll even have a stab at what I think the error will centre around - it will be some kind of 'resonance/feedback' issue, and I'll donate $50 to our local Mater Hospital charity if I'm wrong...  

[psyche101]

18 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

Oh, and just to make this interesting and put my money where my mouth is...  I'll even have a stab at what I think the error will centre around - it will be some kind of 'resonance/feedback' issue, and I'll donate $50 to our local Mater Hospital charity if I'm wrong...  

Just to fulfil your prophecy .......  

I heard that there was a claim made that Lasers were fired into the Em Chamber, and they managed to attain 300,000 km's - Faster than Light! Not by much, but all the same......

These claims that violate Physics just make me dubious, as many of us were with the neutrino claim. 

[Codenwarra]

As a former patent examiner

1. A published patent application is not repeat not a patent. Neither the original post or the Inquisitr articles gives an application or patent number.  

2.  Patent examiners in the USA, UK, the EPO  and Australia are SPECIFICALLY FORBIDDEN BY LAW to give an opinion on whether an invention works or not. They can report on whether the description supports the claims and whether the ideas is new enough.   

[+DieChecker]

On 10/23/2016 at 10:06 PM, psyche101 said:

It would probably slow it down wouldn't it? 

When the photons are absorbed, they will be converted to heat, which will just escape into space wont it? It would be best to funnel them for thrust I would think? 

I was meaning just to collect the heat to prove that the masked photons are even being propelled from the device.

[+DieChecker]

If it fails to seem to produce thrust in numerous trials, there is only one thing to do.... Sell it to Alternative Energy sham companys who will then sell it to the idiots who believe in perpetual motion and free energy from magnets. 

I do really hope it turns out to be real, but I suspect it is going to fall into the same bin with the E-Cat cold fusion device.

[psyche101]

10 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I was meaning just to collect the heat to prove that the masked photons are even being propelled from the device.

I see where you are going now I would be surprised if they had not done something like that already though.