Rlyeh Posted October 30, 2016 #76 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Just now, danielost said: yes, the brain is part of the body. just like a hard drive is part of the computer. and the conscience is the operator. No it's not. The brain functions without a conscience or consciousness, if it didn't you'd be brain dead any time you are unconscious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted October 30, 2016 #77 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rlyeh said: No it's not. The brain functions without a conscience or consciousness, if it didn't you'd be brain dead any time you are unconscious. Arguably we are. It depends how you define being conscious. Most people are unconscious, or unaware, while they are asleep. Conscious actions involve conscience as a part of consciousness. In part so does dreaming. However, due to the nature of sleep, the brain is generally not functioning fully enough to kick in consciousness and conscience. While awake, however, it definitely has to be. Unless maybe in a trance like like or day dreaming state, but then a person is not really, by definition, conscious or aware of what is happening around them. I kinda see what you are saying; that it is mind, not brain, that generates consciousness and conscience, but conversely without consciousness and conscience (and without hope of this being restored) a brain IS clinically dead even while organically it remains alive . This reinforces the concept of separation of mind and body. Many brains and bodies operate for long periods while the mind or self aware consciousness is gone forever. We don't say such people are mind dead, but brain dead. On the other hand, perhaps this is false labelling. The brain is NOT organically dead, but the mind definitely is. Or is the mind only dead because the brain is mostly dead, with no (or minimal ) neurological activity and certainly not enough to support the electro chemical activity required to maintain conscious awareness.?. Edited October 30, 2016 by Mr Walker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted October 30, 2016 #78 Share Posted October 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Rlyeh said: No it's not. The brain functions without a conscience or consciousness, if it didn't you'd be brain dead any time you are unconscious. anda hard drive can be set up to operate with out an operator. what's your point. also with out a hard drive your computer is dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Unicorn Posted October 30, 2016 #79 Share Posted October 30, 2016 10 hours ago, quiXilver said: Or if dementia, alzheimers or parkinsons destroys all your memories... are you still you then? Without our memory, are we still us? Or a meat suit sitting in a chair waiting to be fed and changed and put to bed... what constitutes a self? You gave us something to ponder more the deeper messages in diseases and memories. There would be different kinds of self! Material or conscious self both connect to physical senses and brain's translation of perceptions of the physical senses creates memories. Brain itself creates a perception of the outer material world through body senses and memories. It becomes the I or ego of the body and psychology and survival modes of material life, mostly a brain generated reality that can interact with others in the world. There is also a conscious sentience involved that can go beyond the bodily senses in my opinion and experiences. It is what some call the spiritual side of life, not necessarily a religious view, just that there is a higher type of awareness or level of soul as some call it. It can include the I ego and other types, but is way more because it can use a body or brain as it's own but knows a conscious awareness of senses etc outside of the body itself. Once a physical I ego discovers more awareness it works as a seed and grows to another kind of awareness that encompasses more then the physical self and normal senses used to perceive the reality of the world. I will now talk about my observations of the diseases you mentioned and add to it ALS and other forms of sensory disconnects. Diseases such as dementia or Alzheimer's effect memory and synopsis connections to the brain and body. These people in the end stages appear that they have no self because they cannot communicate or have a sense of time to their memories that is still not destroyed. Their self still has a physical awareness of sentience, IMO. They are alive because their physical bodily functions and metabolism are still working. I discovered even some of those in the end stages can respond positively to their surroundings and people at times. They may be short circuited in the brain because of these diseases but there still is an awareness going on if they are reached out to by an empathetic caregiver. I don't believe they are just meat sitting there without a conscious, but their consciousness has been majorly altered from the norm because of a degenerative disease. Parkinsonisms and ALS forms in a different way than brain memory and learning destruction as in Alzheimer's. There is a path of destruction of motor nerves and the conscious ability to control movements of the body and some forms of sensory loss such as hearing and vision in some cases. Think of Stephen Hawking as the ultimate testiment to an unaffected mind trapped in a body where the signals of communication are cut to the outer world by the brain's misfunction to control the output of certain nerves. Most people facing such a delema still don't have the advantage of using an artificial means to keep the communication going with others. Eventually the brain can't keep preforming the bodily functions that regulate the heart or other major organs and critical biological functions so they die. In the past people at end stages of ALS and other like diseases were thought not to be thinking people any more just because of the inability to interact. We discovered this is not true. I have had several members of my close kin in comas. Several were heart and kidney failure and one was after a stroke and it was a second coma for her during her life and in all the cases, doctors said they were brain dead and if they ever came out they would be vegetables. Both of my cousins and great uncle remained attached to machines for two months before coming out of their comas. My father and grandmother came out of coma in three months. All these people had a strong will to live and do more required in their lives. All of them had OBE type of experiences during the time they were considered brain dead in comas. The religious ones said that they saw God, angels, deceased members of family and the living. My father an Agnostic by proclamation said he saw the light to enter another realm but wandered around watching the living. He was aware of things that happened during coma. His last doctor was a believer in AP awareness and said he discovered it is more common than people think. His work with critical patients led to his belief because it was not explained yet how recovering patients knew so many details of events that occurred while in comas. There is a lot to consciousness and the self for us to discover. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 30, 2016 #80 Share Posted October 30, 2016 44 minutes ago, danielost said: anda hard drive can be set up to operate with out an operator. what's your point. also with out a hard drive your computer is dead. Wrong, many computers will still start without a hard drive making it possible to boot up into BIOS. Your consciousness needs a brain not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted October 30, 2016 #81 Share Posted October 30, 2016 1 minute ago, Rlyeh said: Wrong, many computers will still start without a hard drive making it possible to boot up into BIOS. Your consciousness needs a brain not the other way around. wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted October 30, 2016 #82 Share Posted October 30, 2016 1 minute ago, danielost said: wrong. Yeah, you are. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielost Posted October 30, 2016 #83 Share Posted October 30, 2016 with out an operator the computer justs sits there unless an operator has put software into it to operate automatically. the point is the computer does nothing with out the operator. the body does nothing without the conscience except for automatic operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Unicorn Posted October 30, 2016 #84 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, danielost said: yes, the brain is part of the body. just like a hard drive is part of the computer. and the conscience is the operator. I tend to think the physical brain is kind of like a hard drive to our counsciousness and awareness of the physical world. The spiritual or higher consciousness is like the internet, so if the hard drive fails the self can recover IF it uploaded hard drive self to the Internet or cloud prior to failure, however the self includes other senses and awareness not included in the individual self created by the brain's physical consciousness. Brain or Hard drive controls the individual program of consciousness but even hard drive or RAM can download from a different kind of awareness from the internet which is like a different form of higher consciousness of awareness of self and other selfs. Edited October 30, 2016 by White Unicorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred_mc Posted October 30, 2016 #85 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) I believe that there is a spirit world. I have seen too many psychics giving accurate descriptions, much more accurate than chance, to not believe in a spirit world. I have also seen near-death-experience cases. In a TV documentary, I saw one famous case with a woman who had an operation where she was both blinded and deathed, and still could accurately describe what had happened during the operation (according to her from outside of her body). I don't believe in a God though since I haven't seen any indications of a God existing. When I get to the spirit world, I want to study physics to see what the physics looks like that includes both our material world and the spirit world, and learn how consciousness can exist outside of our body, I'm finding that very interesting. Edited October 30, 2016 by fred_mc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted October 30, 2016 #86 Share Posted October 30, 2016 Mr. Walker postulated about transferring our mind/consciousness into another brain/body, say a drone body. I'm wondering, when both are alive, there would be two people with the same consciousness. What would that be like for that person with the same consciousness awareness in two bodies? Would it be one consciousness controlling two bodies, or two separate but the same consciousness's? I think it would be a confusing experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Unicorn Posted October 30, 2016 #87 Share Posted October 30, 2016 11 minutes ago, fred_mc said: I believe that there is a spirit world. I have seen too many psychics giving accurate descriptions, much more accurate than chance, to not believe in a spirit world. I have also seen near-death-experience cases. In a TV documentary, I saw one famous case with a woman who had an operation where she was both blinded and deathed, and still could accurately describe what had happened during the operation (according to her from outside of her body). I don't believe in a God though since I haven't seen any indications of a God existing. When I get to the spirit world, I want to study physics to see what the physics looks like that includes both our material world and the spirit world, and learn how consciousness can exist outside of our body, I'm finding that very interesting. As I read about the DNA and genetic diseases or alterations caused to DNA and RNA in several Scientific American articles and many NIH research papers. I discovered something in common about the DNA changes in different articles of physicists and genetic researchers. I will make what I noticed in very simple terms. Sometimes a curious layman can see a whole picture that includes a different view about the whole picture then those who delve only into one specialed research. The spiral DNA ladder sometimes has a latent genetic disease which comes about through a change where it goes out of place and activates on the other side of the chain like ladder. What I found truly fascinating about some of these observed changes included the quantum weirdness of physic research at the biological research of geneticists! The same type of thing occurred in some spontaneous healings as well. What happened is the gene or other proteins jumped from one side of the ladder without a path of crossing in between to be observed. My speculation on this observation is that on an atomic level we all have the ability for quantum weirdness effects whether or not under our conscious control. This just might be one of the scientific links to bring science to a better understanding of the the out of body type of experiences in the future. It is the so called presence of the god within, a cause of movement of the life force itself to another place in the time dimension in a way. Just giving you food for thought in how the things considered as paranormal or God may actually be answered by the force behind the quantum weirdness of jumps and connections not seen in between the jumps. The presence of quantum weirdness not only is in physics without but also is contained in our biology within. They just might be able to connect with one another at that level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted October 30, 2016 #88 Share Posted October 30, 2016 13 hours ago, and then said: Wot, indeed. I think you misunderstand. Nope , but you clearly did , as you are still doing it ! 13 hours ago, and then said: If a clear prediction such as an overnight annihilation of a specific city were to happen and people who denied the possibility of it being prophetic BEFORE it happened, STILL deny it AFTER it clearly happens, what would you call them? I would call them figments of your imagination that never happened that you are trying to use to prove some non-existent point 13 hours ago, and then said: The point is that anyone can deny a thing forever but that does not mean it isn't real. Your choice, your responsibility. The point is, you cant give the example you are imagining and are imagining it happened and imagining a certain type of person and imagining you made some type of valid point . 13 hours ago, and then said: The thing about prophecy in the Bible is that it is placed there as a marker for believers. Not everyone believes and that's okay for me. I certainly don't claim to understand the secrets of the universe. Nor am I attempting to proselytize. Just as others here adamantly insist on their view of the world, so do I. The old saw about self-fulfilling prophecies sounds clear and cogent but I'm not sure it can be proven. For example, how is it that my belief in prophecy will cause it to come about? Thats Xeno's trip not mine . My trip is; you spoke about Biblical prophecy being true, yet all you can offer as an example is some imagined scenario that people didnt believe then ask what sort of people they would be . 13 hours ago, and then said: I have no wealth or power. Millions upon millions of other believers are the same. How do we cause a real world event like Damascus being destroyed overnight and becoming uninhabitable? The answer is that we can't. And my answer is , it did not happen , so what exactly IS your point ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted October 30, 2016 #89 Share Posted October 30, 2016 5 hours ago, danielost said: with out an operator the computer justs sits there unless an operator has put software into it to operate automatically. the point is the computer does nothing with out the operator. the body does nothing without the conscience except for automatic operations. Does nothing ...... except Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted October 30, 2016 #90 Share Posted October 30, 2016 4 hours ago, StarMountainKid said: Mr. Walker postulated about transferring our mind/consciousness into another brain/body, say a drone body. I'm wondering, when both are alive, there would be two people with the same consciousness. What would that be like for that person with the same consciousness awareness in two bodies? Would it be one consciousness controlling two bodies, or two separate but the same consciousness's? I think it would be a confusing experience. NOOOOooooooooo ....... please ... dont start him on that one ! Get ready for the Star Trek - beam me up - Walker rave - about fake science and some 'law' about non existence of two Walkers at the same time . We can only hope that this one is true ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted October 30, 2016 Author #91 Share Posted October 30, 2016 8 hours ago, StarMountainKid said: Mr. Walker postulated about transferring our mind/consciousness into another brain/body, say a drone body. I'm wondering, when both are alive, there would be two people with the same consciousness. What would that be like for that person with the same consciousness awareness in two bodies? Would it be one consciousness controlling two bodies, or two separate but the same consciousness's? I think it would be a confusing experience. There an interesting subject for a sci-fi book. Maybe it would spread consciousness thinner. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted October 31, 2016 #92 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Consciousness is a result of brain activity. brain activity = conscious. impaired brain activity = impaired consciousness. no brain activity = no consciousness. There isn't any separate discreet substance for consciousness. It is an effect of a functioning brain. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted October 31, 2016 #93 Share Posted October 31, 2016 17 minutes ago, Horta said: Consciousness is a result of brain activity. brain activity = conscious. impaired brain activity = impaired consciousness. no brain activity = no consciousness. There isn't any separate discreet substance for consciousness. It is an effect of a functioning brain. I agree with your succinct analysis. It's interesting that consciousness is independent of other aspects of brain function. I would think everyone with normal brain function has the same consciousness. Those with varying IQ, talents, personalities, etc. all have the same sort of consciousness. It's like a field within which events happen, but at the same time is independent of events. In this sense it is a universal, though confined to individual brains. Remove all the unique personal aspects of individuality, pure consciousness will be identical to everyone. I think this is why some believe consciousness to be some universal entity separate from brain function. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horta Posted October 31, 2016 #94 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said: I agree with your succinct analysis. It's interesting that consciousness is independent of other aspects of brain function. I would think everyone with normal brain function has the same consciousness. Those with varying IQ, talents, personalities, etc. all have the same sort of consciousness. It's like a field within which events happen, but at the same time is independent of events. In this sense it is a universal, though confined to individual brains. Remove all the unique personal aspects of individuality, pure consciousness will be identical to everyone. I think this is why some believe consciousness to be some universal entity separate from brain function. There are some interesting aspects to this. In certain experiences (consistent with heightened temporal lobe activity, epilepsy and so on) it seems almost as if the normal functioning processes of the brain and the resulting psychology, is absent. Like people are experiencing consciousness itself and nothing else. I have experienced this also. Whole fields of philosophy/religion are devoted to..."the illuminated mind". Though I think the mystics have it wrong. I read a piece once by an astronomer regarding how the universe might appear to a photon. It's a thought experiment, not strictly based on science though, as I don't think there is an appropriate reference or senses for a photon to observe anything , but it is fascinating. For a photon travelling at the speed of light (obviously) there is no time, nor any distance. Such experiences are usually associated, initially at least, with some amazing form of light. Also a feeling that there is no separateness, no "self" to identify with, and an utter and profound stillness (if there were no distance that could make sense). As well as the feeling of time not existing. One of the reasons I find such experiences fascinating is because it is less likely (but still possible) for the imagination to be creating this type of experience as some sort of fantasy. It's entirely devoid of anything resembling normal thought processes or emotion. Could this be a hint that consciousness is based in electromagnetism underneath it all? It does look (to me at least) that the underlying consciousness itself is the same where it occurs in nature especially in mammals (no way to really know this though). The philosophers going on endlessly about "qualia" and so on seems to complicate something more simple than that. Consciousness is the ability to be aware (IMO), it's the complexity of the brain/nervous system and what it is capable of that makes the difference. Or it could all amount to some weird effect associated with a brain malfunction and nothing more. Edited October 31, 2016 by Horta 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted October 31, 2016 #95 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I also have experienced moments of no self or identity or individuality, only consciousness itself. I think this is a potential we all share, but of course our conditioning gets in the way and prevents some to even allow for this possibility. As you say, this state includes the absence of one's awareness of time. This is one reason I think time as we experience it is a construct of the brain. Psychological time varies in duration depending on personal circumstances. So, I think consciousness is more complex and more simple and more profound than we usually consider it to be. We mainly take it for granted. Our thoughts, motives, emotions, memories, etc. supersede the importance for us of our conscious awareness itself. The importance and imperative significance of our consciousness cannot be overstated, though we usually pay little attention to it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted November 1, 2016 #96 Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) On 30 octobre 2016 at 10:04 AM, Rlyeh said: Wrong, many computers will still start without a hard drive making it possible to boot up into BIOS. Your consciousness needs a brain not the other way around. Does anyone still seriously believe that we are biological robots living in a meaningless Universe? Old-fashioned materialism has been debunked for quite some time now. Edited November 1, 2016 by TruthSeeker_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted November 1, 2016 #97 Share Posted November 1, 2016 2 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said: Rlyeh: Humans are biological robots living in a meaningless Universe. Yea yeah we've heard it all before from the materialists. You know, insulting responses like that are counterproductive -- they just show you as a closed-minded rather stupid sort. I don't see where inserting God makes something meaningful that would not be otherwise. What gives him meaning? What gives anything meaning? It occurs to me that there might exist forces (say a "sentience" force) that propagates itself from life to life (this is in fact the Buddhist idea) kinda automatically, based on an automatically ethical system called karma, and there is no need for any God in the whole thing. Of course we presume someday sentient robots will exist. Then we can transfer our sentience into them and have a neat little after-life with much enhanced capabilities and smarts and much lengthened existence (perhaps even until the universe's heat-death). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted November 1, 2016 #98 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I must have missed where TS "inserted" God ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only_ Posted November 1, 2016 #99 Share Posted November 1, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Frank Merton said: Of course we presume someday sentient robots will exist. Then we can transfer our sentience into them and have a neat little after-life with much enhanced capabilities and smarts and much lengthened existence (perhaps even until the universe's heat-death). Rlyeh's old-school materialism is mind = brain. Period. There is nothing more to it. Hence you might be able 'replicate' consciousness into some other medium. But for those who believe that consciousness is fundamental, it's never really going to be you. Only an approximate copy. Edited November 1, 2016 by TruthSeeker_ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted November 1, 2016 #100 Share Posted November 1, 2016 ~ ~ remember to check if the power is on ... ~ ~ good luck ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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