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Sweetpumper

The Wall

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Golden Duck
1 hour ago, -ZZ- said:

Yes he said that. There are spots on the border that would make a fence more practical. Have you heard the Border Patrol is sending more agents to the Rio Grande Valley from other more northern areas even as we speak?

As far as the geography of the southern border goes, I'm not trying to be wise, but have you ever been there? There are many natural barriers where a fence that was properly patrolled would be sufficient.

I was beginning to wonder whether, or not, Trump's Wall was a brilliant piece of metaphor/metonymy that no one recognised.

Like you allude to - physical barriers are useless without patrols.  

Stopping illegal immigration needs people and information more than bricks and mortar.

Edited by Mangoze
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Thorvir
9 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

American's, at least those of autocratic attitudes (right wing) have a perverse view.  That wall will become a symbol of American evil all around the world -- not just in Latin America, and will make enemies of millions.

OMG you are completely out of touch with reality.  How will a wall that keeps illegals out of a country be representative of a symbol of evil?  You are way too dramatic and uninformed, you know that?  Besides, we don't really give a damn what you think.  You do realize that this country has, does and will accept immigrants from all around the world, right?  Legal ones, that come here honestly and openly wishing to be part of this country.  So stop being so narrow-minded, anti-American and use some of common sense for once in your miserable, hate-filled life.

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Tatetopa

There have gotta be some jobs created building the wall.  Also ICE agents or more Border patrol agents will need to be hired.  In parts of south Texas climbing over a wall would be trivial.  The difficult part is hiking through 20-30 miles of badlands to get to a road.  It is a fact that many people die attempting the crossing.  The coyotes, people smugglers, let them take their chances, they get paid up front. 

On this one, I have had the same thought as Thorvir, why don't we encourage Mexico to improve their internal conditions so people have safety, opportunities and want to stay?  After all, there are few Canadians that want to live in the US. The paranoid part of me says that the monied interests like it this way.  Illegal persons provide very cheap labor for picking fruit, landscaping, dish washing, and cleaning the Walmart stores at night to name a few things.  They can be payed less than minimum wage and even stiffed.  They can't complain. Keeping these people out will cost American  businesses money.  More factories producing cheap goods in Mexico means more competition for American factories. Maybe the status quo is good for many people in power.

Now I would argue that it is not charity we are talking about but self interest to develop Mexico and Central America.  Consider the billions of dollars that China has been investing in Africa.  Now consider a container port on the west coast of Mexico to rival Long Beach with the railroads, highways, and power to support it.  Jobs, factories and prosperity go along with it. Customers as well as products are created.  I think if we take ourselves out of the world game, China will take on that project.  Mexico has a load of natural resources, petroleum, gold, and silver to name 3.  With a good transportation net, they have access to all of Central and South America.

Helping to develop Central America and South America will create jobs and tons of money, and friends, that would make America great again.  I am most afraid that we will pass it up.

Controlling our borders and immigration is great, and we need to do it.  Building a wall that also keeps out trade and money is foolish. Calling everybody on the other side of the wall rapists and murderers is untrue and worse than foolish.  

 

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third_eye

Maybe in some twenty odd thirty years some Mexican El Presidente will speak on International Media Live to a Worldwide audience proclaiming to the POTUS of the day .... *POTUS* tear down this wall ....

Ronnie will be made a monkey in his grave ...

~

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Dumbledore the Awesome

Is no one else on this thread going to say that they thought this was going to be a discussion of Pink Floyd's greatest album? 

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Dumbledore the Awesome
4 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

American's, at least those of autocratic attitudes (right wing) have a perverse view.  That wall will become a symbol of American evil all around the world -- not just in Latin America, and will make enemies of millions.

Why is it evil to want to try to keep the numbers of people trying to enter illegally down as much as you can? I do wish people would try to realise that He's never talked about prohibiting immigration for people of any race, just that it would surely be beneficial to try to make sure that they were doing so legally, and that you could be reasonably confident as far as possible that they didn't have a background of criminal or terrorist-related activitives.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

 

 

Controlling our borders and immigration is great, and we need to do it.  Building a wall that also keeps out trade and money is foolish. Calling everybody on the other side of the wall rapists and murderers is untrue and worse than foolish.  

 

except he never has. It's sorry to see that even a reasoned argument like this falls back on that worn-out old piece of propaganda. 

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Tatetopa
11 minutes ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

except he never has. It's sorry to see that even a reasoned argument like this falls back on that worn-out old piece of propaganda. 

Good point, "worn-out old piece of propaganda" i.e. a remark from this year. Why do you call it propaganda it was a televised speech. But enough of that.. I don't think I quoted Mr. Trump.  Did it seem like something Mr. Trump, a canny businessman,  would say?  Of course not.  Yet, like a good story teller, he paints a sparse picture and lets his listeners fill in the rest from their imaginations. I think he did say, "Some of them, I assume, are good people."  No doubt that reassured everybody listening and set their minds on the right track. I am sure that The Central and South American republics will be wise enough to dismiss any overly enthusiastic Trump supporters and their penchant for extremism.  However, my concern remains.  Will America step out onto the global stage or fade away and let China and Russia supplant us?

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Dumbledore the Awesome
Just now, Tatetopa said:

Good point, "worn-out old piece of propaganda" i.e. a remark from this year. Why do you call it propaganda it was a televised speech. But enough of that.. I don't think I quoted Mr. Trump.  Did it seem like something Mr. Trump, a canny businessman,  would say?  Of course not.  Yet, like a good story teller, he paints a sparse picture and lets his listeners fill in the rest from their imaginations. I think he did say, "Some of them, I assume, are good people."  No doubt that reassured everybody listening and set their minds on the right track. I am sure that The Central and South American republics will be wise enough to dismiss any overly enthusiastic Trump supporters and their penchant for extremism.  However, my concern remains.  Will America step out onto the global stage or fade away and let China and Russia supplant us?

What he said was, or to the effect of, "They're sending their bad people, their rapists and murderers, here". It's quite a difference from saying that "they're rapists", which is what the Media immediately assumed he said. 

 

Quote

Will America step out onto the global stage or fade away and let China and Russia supplant us?

Do you mean interfering in every other country's affairs and overthrowing the governments of any country that doesn't do what you tell them to? The Russkies have to be prevented from doing that, so America needs to be the global policeman to make sure they don't? Certainly America has never ever imagined doing anything remotely like that, has it. 

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Lilly
4 hours ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

 

 

Do you mean interfering in every other country's affairs and overthrowing the governments of any country that doesn't do what you tell them to? The Russkies have to be prevented from doing that, so America needs to be the global policeman to make sure they don't? Certainly America has never ever imagined doing anything remotely like that, has it. 

I'm not sure if you noticed but it was Mrs Clinton as Secretary of State who was all for interfering in other countries affairs. Mr Trump has not been involved in the government so we've yet to know if this will his mode of operation or not. BTW, there are treaties and pacts (like NATO) where if one nation is attacked the other nations in the pact are supposed to act on behalf of the others. Also, deals will have to made (yes, even with the Russians). Let's face it, no country exists in a vacuum so diplomacy and 'deals' will still be made. Let's just hope Mr Trump really is a genius in the 'art of the deal'.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
1 hour ago, Lilly said:

I'm not sure if you noticed but it was Mrs Clinton as Secretary of State who was all for interfering in other countries affairs. Mr Trump has not been involved in the government so we've yet to know if this will his mode of operation or not. BTW, there are treaties and pacts (like NATO) where if one nation is attacked the other nations in the pact are supposed to act on behalf of the others. Also, deals will have to made (yes, even with the Russians). Let's face it, no country exists in a vacuum so diplomacy and 'deals' will still be made. Let's just hope Mr Trump really is a genius in the 'art of the deal'.

I know, that's what I was saying. If Mr. T does nothing else but does scale back on that policy it'd be something to be grateful for. 

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Astra.

I understand the need for division - for keeping undesirables out.

But what does Trump exactly mean by 'THE WALL' that he intends to build ?

Who will build 'this wall' ?

How do people imagine what 'this wall' will look like ?...

What will be the overall expense of 'this wall' ?

Will 'this wall' encroach on other peoples properties / land ?

Will 'this wall' affect the surrounding environment?

How much labour will be required to build 'this wall" ?

Who will be there to safe guard 'this wall' 24 hours a day ?

What will 'this wall' be built of ?....concrete ? steel ? wood ? 

How long will it take for 'this wall' to be built ?

How tall will "this wall" be ?

What is the cost of keeping "this wall' maintained ?

Is 'this wall' number 1....on Trumps priority list ( of things to do, that he has promised) ?

 

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Dumbledore the Awesome
Just now, Astra. said:

But what does Trump exactly mean by 'THE WALL' that he intends to build ?

They're now saying parts of it might be a fence. :angry: If it isn't yuuge and beautiful as promised, I won't be happy.

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South Alabam
12 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

American's, at least those of autocratic attitudes (right wing) have a perverse view.  That wall will become a symbol of American evil all around the world -- not just in Latin America, and will make enemies of millions.

We have legal immigration in this country to vet potential immigrants before granting them citizenship. This country has around 13 million illegal Mexican immigrants that we have no idea who they are, or what they did, before coming here. Granted, most are probably decent people, no doubt. But you can rest assured there are some bad ones too. I have see this first hand, here and there, in the news of an illegal killing, or raping a woman.Trump has said later down the road after the wall is built he would look at the situation again, meaning, at least to me, he would allow the good ones amnesty, and incarcerating or deporting the bad ones.

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Astra.
9 minutes ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

They're now saying parts of it might be a fence. 

Really ? I get that a fence is to keep certain privacy...and to keep ones dog in the backyard...but this guy has promised "The Wall" from the get go of the election. 

 

9 minutes ago, Grand Moff Tarkin said:

:angry: If it isn't yuuge and beautiful as promised, I won't be happy.

People from all around the globe are aware of "this wall" that this guy (president elect) has been croaking on about for ages.

But it's not ok to make constant knee jerk promise's to the masses - without some detail of how he is going to go about it.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
Just now, Astra. said:

Really ? I get that a fence is to keep certain privacy...and to keep ones dog in the backyard...but this guy has promised "The Wall" from the get go of the election. 

 

People from all around the globe are aware of "this wall" that this guy (president elect) has been croaking on about for ages.

But it's not ok to make constant knee jerk promise's to the masses - without some detail of how he is going to go about it.

I've always said it may be more of a metaphorical wall. Perhaps a philosophical one, a wall of the mind kind of thing. 

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Dumbledore the Awesome

Of course, there may be minefields as well :unsure2: 

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Astra.
21 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Trump has said later down the road after the wall is built he would look at the situation again, meaning, at least to me, he would allow the good ones amnesty, and incarcerating or deporting the bad ones.

Hi SA...how long do you think that this 'promised wall' may take to build.....before allowing amnesty or deporting the bad ones (as you put it) ?

Surely it would take a lot of time to build the type of wall that Mr Trump has impressed upon ? 

Would he have time to organise such a massive task within his four years of bring president...since he has many other important issues on his agenda to address...whilst being commander and chief ?

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Dark_Grey

They started building the wall back in 2006. For those who may be unaware:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

Quote

The Secure Fence Act of 2006’s goal is to help secure America’s borders to decrease illegal entry, drug trafficking, and security threats by building 700 miles (1,100 km) of physical barriers along the Mexico-United States border. Additionally, the law authorizes more vehicle barriers, checkpoints, and lighting as well as authorizes the Department of Homeland Security to increase the use of advanced technology like cameras, satellites, and unmanned aerial vehicles to reinforce infrastructure at the border.[1] Congress approved $1.2 billion in a separate homeland security spending bill to bankroll the fence, though critics say this is $4.8 billion less than what’s likely needed to get it built.

The American people tend to have a short memory. Trump is simply expanding on a Congress approved border. The Mexican drug cartel's have all but taken over Mexico, committing much the same violence against innocent people that we see in terrorist groups like ISIS. This is not speculation or xenophobia, this is fact. What is also fact is that illegal migrants are just as illegal under Obama as much as they are under Trump. The difference being only one President has decided to enforce the law. I say build the wall as long as it's built by Americans paid fair wages with good ol' greenbacks.

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ellapenella
2 hours ago, Astra. said:

I understand the need for division - for keeping undesirables out.

But what does Trump exactly mean by 'THE WALL' that he intends to build ?

Who will build 'this wall' ?

How do people imagine what 'this wall' will look like ?...

What will be the overall expense of 'this wall' ?

Will 'this wall' encroach on other peoples properties / land ?

Will 'this wall' affect the surrounding environment?

How much labour will be required to build 'this wall" ?

Who will be there to safe guard 'this wall' 24 hours a day ?

What will 'this wall' be built of ?....concrete ? steel ? wood ? 

How long will it take for 'this wall' to be built ?

How tall will "this wall" be ?

What is the cost of keeping "this wall' maintained ?

Is 'this wall' number 1....on Trumps priority list ( of things to do, that he has promised) ?

 

Contractors will be building the Great & beautiful wall.  Securing our Borders is top priority and getting criminals out of our country that don't belong here as well.

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ellapenella
1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

They started building the wall back in 2006. For those who may be unaware:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Fence_Act_of_2006

The American people tend to have a short memory. Trump is simply expanding on a Congress approved border. The Mexican drug cartel's have all but taken over Mexico, committing much the same violence against innocent people that we see in terrorist groups like ISIS. This is not speculation or xenophobia, this is fact. What is also fact is that illegal migrants are just as illegal under Obama as much as they are under Trump. The difference being only one President has decided to enforce the law. I say build the wall as long as it's built by Americans paid fair wages with good ol' greenbacks.

I remember hearing relatives complain that they wanted their Wall built when "W" was in office...Where's my wall they would always say and at the time i thought what wall??? I didn't know anything about it...I thought they were being sarcastic or something...but they weren't...It was promised or talked about after some deal that Reagan made think with amnesty.... but no one had ever yet  delivered on that promise .

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Hawken

When the Berlin Wall was in existence between 1961-89, Around 5000 East Germans escaped to West Germany.

The Wall had razor wire and machine gun emplacements. Is Trump's Wall gonna do any better keeping people out?

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South Alabam
2 hours ago, Astra. said:

Hi SA...how long do you think that this 'promised wall' may take to build.....before allowing amnesty or deporting the bad ones (as you put it) ?

Surely it would take a lot of time to build the type of wall that Mr Trump has impressed upon ? 

Would he have time to organise such a massive task within his four years of bring president...since he has many other important issues on his agenda to address...whilst being commander and chief ?

Hi Astra. In the video I saw, he said it would be partial wall, partial fence, because in some places it wouldn't be practical to have a wall.  Even if it was a 2000 mile chain link fence, I could see that taking years. Here is the video : http://theduran.com/donald-trump-talks-the-wall-during-60-minutes-interview-its-called-construction-its-what-i-do-video/

I was wrong above however, in my above post. He wants to get the bad ones out now, then make a determination as to the rest after the border is secured. I will take that as amnesty.

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Golden Duck
7 hours ago, Astra. said:

Really ? I get that a fence is to keep certain privacy...and to keep ones dog in the backyard...but this guy has promised "The Wall" from the get go of the election. 

People from all around the globe are aware of "this wall" that this guy (president elect) has been croaking on about for ages.

But it's not ok to make constant knee jerk promise's to the masses - without some detail of how he is going to go about it.

It wasn't that long ago that Border Control was called Barrier Control.

A physical - bricks & mortar or steel - barrier (wall/fence) will, by itself,  add little value; they never have.

Boosting resources to the appropriate agencies will fulfill the election promise.

Robust processes, information gathering, analysis and people will be the foundations of Trump's Wall.

If citizens are encouraged to report, then 'The Wall' could span the entire nation.

Edited by Mangoze
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