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The Wall


Sweetpumper
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On 2/3/2017 at 1:25 PM, and then said:

Bouncing Betty's, ahh a blast from the past.  Those crazy Germans really could build a good terror weapon, couldn't they?  G.I.s were scared spitless over those little purveyors of pain and death.  They didn't worry as much about dying from them as they worried about being neutered by them!  

As to the WALL... it seems to me that it should be created in some form but should be a secondary measure to stop the die-hards that might come for mischief or terror plots.  The flow of illegals could be cut to a trickle with two actions.  My guess is that 90+ % of the uninvited guests from our south come for better lives.  I think the majority of those seek the higher pay and opportunities in the U.S.  That's a perfectly rational instinct for any person.  They aren't some invading horde of evil-doers.  Most of the guys I've seen in my community on the gulf coast of Alabama are really hard-working individuals who are trying to build a life for their families.  My biggest beef with them is that most of them won't take the time to even try to learn the language.  That's annoying, but it isn't something I'd use to deny them a life here.

The two steps to solve or at least scale down the economic and potential security damage is this -  First, create laws that severely penalize (heavy fines or even jail time for repeat offenders) any employer that knowingly hires an illegal and pays them a pittance.  Such employers are the real problem.  They want to game the system and become wealthy at the nation's expense.  I'm not sure what the true economic impact of such a move would be, but I suspect Americans would be shocked at the increased costs of everything from salad vegetables to having their house painted or built.  Nothing is free.  We are either serious about this problem or we aren't, time to man up.  Second, we could, overnight, have bi-partisan agreement on the issue if a law was passed that used current biometric technology to totally stop voting fraud in the 50 states.  It is undeniable that the second main incentive for unhindered flow of illegals is the desire by one political party to create a solid, reliable voter base from their ranks.  If the Federal government required the several states to begin using equivalent, if not identical voting systems that used biometrics, fraud would become so difficult that it would remove that incentive.  The political party that most benefited from such fraud would be the one that screamed NO! the loudest.  Have the voter registration process include a thumbprint.  When an individual shows up to vote they would need no ID.  They would mark a paper ballot to be kept as a record and when the ballot was to be scanned by machine, the thumbprint scan would activate the scanner.  Once that print was used, if it was used again, anywhere else within driving distance of the polling place, BOTH votes would be invalidated and a warning given.  The person could file a provisional paper ballot in case a mistake had been made.  If that print was used a third time, the individual would be arrested for attempting voter fraud.  There is nothing unreasonable in such a proposal.  It would cost the nation a few billions of dollars but it would be an ironclad guarantee of removing major fraud from the vote.

If the folks from the south cannot be used for the financial or electoral gain of Americans, those creating this problem would quickly lose interest.

Well, I would agree with you on a certain level. Those who have hired them, saving money and such, are the ones that started this, and should penalized and discouraged. I'll have to reflect more on what your suggesting to see if it sounds healthy enough. The other thing that I see a problem, is the jobs that the illegals do take, ( that the employers hire ) that are really not desired from us here in this country. If the problem of not hiring the illegals is gone, who will take their place here? It's these jobs that tend to be looked down upon and discouraged. I wonder even, if some employers had no choice but to hire illegals, because they couldn't get them filled before. 

I think it's more in than just understanding that we need to take stock in how things are made, how expensive it will be (for businesses as well), but how the jobs themselves are looked upon ( or looked down upon for that matter ) I feel, this needs a whole new outlook, I do agree in. 

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2 hours ago, Gromdor said:

So I was reading my Facebook the other day and one of my friends posted a novel idea for the wall.  If we are going to do it we might as well line it with solar panels and make it into a giant greenhouse.  Basically the idea was to turn it into a thousand mile long factory or farm.  That way it produced something with the added side effect of being a "barrier", could even put a high speed train on top to deter people from trying to ladder over it.

I think that's nice, but I still have a funny feeling about a country having a wall. It's me think of a couple of countries, and their walls, and what good it did their's. ;) 

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18 hours ago, Gromdor said:

So I was reading my Facebook the other day and one of my friends posted a novel idea for the wall.  If we are going to do it we might as well line it with solar panels and make it into a giant greenhouse.  Basically the idea was to turn it into a thousand mile long factory or farm.  That way it produced something with the added side effect of being a "barrier", could even put a high speed train on top to deter people from trying to ladder over it.

You know...you can build a thousand-mile long farm without a giant wall...

More to the point, how long do you think it will be that people start complaining about how many Mexicans are working on the border farm?  And about how many American farmers already on the verge of bankruptcy are being put out of work by this massive farm?

The point is that, if something is useless, putting something useful next to it doesn't make it less useless.  It just makes it more expensive.

Edited by aquatus1
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On 2/4/2017 at 4:29 AM, Farmer77 said:

Not a good couple of days for the Trumpster 

Hill Republicans revolt over Trump's plans to build border wall 

A growing number of congressional Republicans are objecting to the cost and viability of a proposal that was a rallying cry for the billionaire businessman during his insurgent campaign. Interviews with more than a dozen GOP lawmakers across the ideological spectrum suggest Trump could have a difficult time getting funding for his plan approved by Congress.
Many bluntly told CNN they'd likely vote against any Trump plan that is not fully offset with spending cuts, while others questioned whether Trump's vision would adequately resolve the problems at the border.
"If you're going to spend that kind of money, you're going to have to show me where you're going to get that money," said Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski, a key swing vote who has already broken with Trump over his nominee for secretary of education.

 

OHHHHHHHH.... Now the Republicans are concerned with budget cuts???? What the hell happened to the Republican Congress that had Obama requesting Trillions and they handed it out?

This is a lot of sabre rattling that's not going to amount to much. When it comes time to line up and vote, I'll bet most Republicans will vote with Donald, rather then be lumped in with the new Party of No.

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4 hours ago, aquatus1 said:

You know...you can build a thousand-mile long farm without a giant wall...

More to the point, how long do you think it will be that people start complaining about how many Mexicans are working on the border farm?  And about how many American farmers already on the verge of bankruptcy are being put out of work by this massive farm?

The point is that, if something is useless, putting something useful next to it doesn't make it less useless.  It just makes it more expensive.

I guess the whole point of their post was to try and make something that would be expensive and useless into something expensive and useful.

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11 hours ago, Claire. said:

Some interesting photos on what the US-Mexican border looked like about 80 years ago: The Washington Post

The biggest threat was then was plant quarantining.

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"If we had a truly free-market economy, the illegal immigrants would not be the scapegoat.  They'd be welcome to stay."  - Ron Paul

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16 minutes ago, Yamato said:

"If we had a truly free-market economy, the illegal immigrants would not be the scapegoat.  They'd be welcome to stay."  - Ron Paul

But........ like RP says..... we don't have a free market economy.

Until we do and GOV protects the rights of each individual accordingly enforcing the non aggression principle to all including ALL special interest it will never be reality.

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34 minutes ago, acidhead said:

But........ like RP says..... we don't have a free market economy.

Until we do and GOV protects the rights of each individual accordingly enforcing the non aggression principle to all including ALL special interest it will never be reality.

If we can't take it all the way to the end of the rainbow, let's move it step by step in the right direction.   Free markets have free flow of goods, services, resources, capital.  If your unique floor designs were really popular in Mexico you could make a lot of money.   What would you care about the Mexican ganja bags then?   There's not an emotional story about a Mexican rapist in the way is there?  

Walls and price fixers is the last thing we need.   Total screw job for the markets and "we don't have free markets now" is a really poor excuse for it.   You could have used that excuse any time in history you want and it'd have been a bad excuse for more statist control then too.

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6 minutes ago, Yamato said:

If we can't take it all the way to the end of the rainbow, let's move it step by step in the right direction.   Free markets have free flow of goods, services, resources, capital.  If your unique floor designs were really popular in Mexico you could make a lot of money.   What would you care about the Mexican ganja bags then?   There's not an emotional story about a Mexican rapist in the way is there?  

Walls and price fixers is the last thing we need.   Total screw job for the markets and "we don't have free markets now" is a really poor excuse for it.   You could have used that excuse any time in history you want and it'd have been a bad excuse for more statist control then too.

Well I suppose as long as we're allowed to vote we're going to vote in statists as a whole.   But I'm optimistic through the use of tech and speed of communication eventually individuals will see the light and harness the power of the market.  See through the hurdles of beauracracy and a more efficient society emerge.

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20 minutes ago, acidhead said:

Well I suppose as long as we're allowed to vote we're going to vote in statists as a whole.   But I'm optimistic through the use of tech and speed of communication eventually individuals will see the light and harness the power of the market.  See through the hurdles of beauracracy and a more efficient society emerge.

Doug Stanhope's views on immigration and nationalism will work best in the meantime.  Isolationism, paranoia, price fixing and almost-useless inanimate objects serving as symbols of hate aren't what we need.

If nothing else, at least there won't be a wall on the US Canadian border so if he pulls a fast one on marijuana at least the British Columbian weed will still get through.

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8 minutes ago, Yamato said:

Doug Stanhope's views on immigration and nationalism will work best in the meantime.  Isolationism, paranoia, price fixing and almost-useless inanimate objects serving as symbols of hate aren't what we need.

If nothing else, at least there won't be a wall on the US Canadian border so if he pulls a fast one on marijuana at least the British Columbian weed will still get through.

I dont smoke pot anymore but it's.... only weed....... you can only get sooo high... and its a cheap resourse... no wonder it became such a political issue... like RP said about heroin... if tomorrow the GOV said it was legal to use opiates would we see a mad rush to use the drug? 

Edited by acidhead
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26 minutes ago, acidhead said:

I dont smoke pot anymore but it's.... only weed....... you can only get sooo high... and its a cheap resourse... no wonder it became such a political issue... like RP said about heroin... if tomorrow the GOV said it was legal to use opiates would we see a mad rush to use the drug? 

Not if they call it heroin.  Call it Lortab or Oxycontin and see a mad rush to prescribe it.  The difference is perception.   If people were growing poppies across America instead of Afghanistan we wouldn't need as many pain killers and it'd be a cheap resource too.

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3 hours ago, acidhead said:

Well I suppose as long as we're allowed to vote we're going to vote in statists as a whole.   But I'm optimistic through the use of tech and speed of communication eventually individuals will see the light and harness the power of the market.  See through the hurdles of beauracracy and a more efficient society emerge.

I don't know, man.  Capitalism likes efficiency only as far as it benefits the one making the money.  By it's nature, the purpose of the market is to funnel money in one direction, and bureaucracy exists pretty much for the sole purpose of removing the simplest solution, i.e. beating someone over the head and taking their cash.

My hope for technology is not that it harnesses the power of the market, but rather that it removes it entirely.

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2 hours ago, aquatus1 said:

I don't know, man.  Capitalism likes efficiency only as far as it benefits the one making the money.  By it's nature, the purpose of the market is to funnel money in one direction, and bureaucracy exists pretty much for the sole purpose of removing the simplest solution, i.e. beating someone over the head and taking their cash.

My hope for technology is not that it harnesses the power of the market, but rather that it removes it entirely.

What, removes the market entirely? So a sort of techno-socialist utopia would be your preferred system?

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5 hours ago, Yamato said:

Doug Stanhope's views on immigration and nationalism will work best in the meantime.  Isolationism, paranoia, price fixing and almost-useless inanimate objects serving as symbols of hate aren't what we need.

If nothing else, at least there won't be a wall on the US Canadian border so if he pulls a fast one on marijuana at least the British Columbian weed will still get through.

We are not an isolationist country, we just can not vet  all these refugees and besides who wants to chance that? Why not build them a safe zone in the middle east? look at Europe ! Look at it ! We will not allow that to spread globally.

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really "Isolationism" is a quite misleading term; even when non-intervention was the preferred policy in the 1930 (rightly or wrongly), the US hardly cut itself off from the rest of the world. It wasn't as if people were discouraged from visiting, it just meant non-intervention militarilily. 

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57 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

What, removes the market entirely? So a sort of techno-socialist utopia would be your preferred system?

Not preferred, so much as inevitable.  I'm not a fan of politics, except so far as they relate to behavioralism.

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On 2/4/2017 at 4:09 PM, Gromdor said:

So I was reading my Facebook the other day and one of my friends posted a novel idea for the wall.  If we are going to do it we might as well line it with solar panels and make it into a giant greenhouse.  Basically the idea was to turn it into a thousand mile long factory or farm.  That way it produced something with the added side effect of being a "barrier", could even put a high speed train on top to deter people from trying to ladder over it.

from what i've learned about human behavior in over 40 years, i'd say that wall will be vandalized 24\7.

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Well, that's always the way. No one has any respect for other people's property. Look at the Berlin Wall, and that wasn't even West Berlin's property. :angry: 

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34 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Well, that's always the way. No one has any respect for other people's property. Look at the Berlin Wall, and that wasn't even West Berlin's property. :angry: 

it had graffiti all over it, not much else you can do to a concrete wall, solar panel wall however, a lot to vandalize, i can see them shooting if not real guns, than bb\pellet, or slingshots at the panels.  

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Here is a very potent article written by a legal Mexican immigrant who basically explains why illegal immigration is such a issue and why it is dangerous to our way of life. Sometimes I guess it takes a Mexican to teach an liberal American why it is a good idea to stem the tide or even completely halt illegal immigration into United States. It has nothing to do with racism, more along with sovereign issues and the dangers of illegal immigration to citizens, mostly the legal immigrants who came here to escape the dangers of their old life.
 

Quote

 

Back in June when President Trump pointed out that Judge Gonzalo Curiel may be biased against him given his Mexican heritage, everyone collectively shrieked RACIST. When asked what my opinion was, as a Mexican myself, I asked people to put themselves in the judge’s position.

Imagine him at a family gathering, looking into the eyes of all those who have been convinced by a rather effective leftist media that Trump (aka Orange Hitler) hates them, and wants them dead. Now imagine him telling his family and friends that they’re all wrong, which is why he didn’t “get him” while he had the chance, because his job is to uphold the law. They feel betrayed. His relationships might never be the same again.

It’s easy to say you’re above all of this. It’s easy to say you’d always do the right thing. It’s easy to say that you would never succumb to any sort of bias, that as the Judge you would always rule objectively, and as his family, you would respect that he was simply upholding the law. But you’re only human, and I don’t believe you.


For More, Click Here!

 

 

Edited by Uncle Sam
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In the same way that some do not understand the fear of a ban intended for Muslim terrorists becoming a ban on all Muslims, so do they not understand how a wall intended for illegal immigrants can so easily become a wall for all immigrants.

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On 2/4/2017 at 6:24 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Well, I would agree with you on a certain level. Those who have hired them, saving money and such, are the ones that started this, and should penalized and discouraged. I'll have to reflect more on what your suggesting to see if it sounds healthy enough. The other thing that I see a problem, is the jobs that the illegals do take, ( that the employers hire ) that are really not desired from us here in this country. If the problem of not hiring the illegals is gone, who will take their place here? It's these jobs that tend to be looked down upon and discouraged. I wonder even, if some employers had no choice but to hire illegals, because they couldn't get them filled before. 

I think it's more in than just understanding that we need to take stock in how things are made, how expensive it will be (for businesses as well), but how the jobs themselves are looked upon ( or looked down upon for that matter ) I feel, this needs a whole new outlook, I do agree in. 

I can't tell you  how many times have I heard it said  before from people that they would do anything, even sell their own bodies to feed their children & keep a roof over them so that false narrative that Americans fear work is not true.  Not everyone mows their own grass because they can't or because they don't want to but certainly there will always be an American citizen that is willing to work...

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