So rape is adultery in the Middle-East ?

[Arbenol]

9 hours ago, Lilly said:

What I find mind boggling is that some of the so called 'feminists' turn around and support the 'cultural rights' of the very groups who advocate this type of treatment for women. Irrespective of ones religion or culture such treatment of women ( rape, genital mutilation, honor killing, slavery) absolutely has to be denounced and never tolerated. There is no such thing as 'moral relativism' in this regard and no one (individual, group, country) should ever back peddle on this. If such actions were being based upon a person's race instead of gender how quickly would people rise up in absolute fury. Yet, such actions towards woman are simply called 'religious practices' or 'cultural differences'. What disgusting hypocrisy.

I've heard things like this frequently. Usually with the label "hypocrisy of the left" attached to it.

I agree it is mind boggling that anyone who considers themselves a feminist could justify misogyny and the abuse of women on the basis of religious practices or cultural differences.

Could you point one out to me. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I've never come across one.

[SHaYap]

This is tribal , not religious ... and all those so called 'honor' killings are punishable in both court of law and sharia ... something many gloss over for the sake of confirmation bias ... most of all this is just another example of demonstrable deplorable male behavior ... not religious or even political ...

~

[Unusual Tournament]

On 18 November 2016 at 9:38 AM, Dark_Grey said:

Because if you didn't rape them, women would go crazy and tempt men with their overt sexuality. Of course, adultery is a sin so she will be stoned to death for her transgressions.

 

...can you believe this is still happening in 2016?! Sorry, forgot the hashtag: #misinterpretingmohammed

 

What i can't believe is that Britain and Europe accept and look the other way to avoid any confrontation with these medieval societies.

[Unusual Tournament]

56 minutes ago, third_eye said:

This is tribal , not religious ... and all those so called 'honor' killings are punishable in both court of law and sharia ... something many gloss over for the sake of confirmation bias ... most of all this is just another example of demonstrable deplorable male behavior ... not religious or even political ...

~

Tribal, religious, nation, society call it what you like the result is the same. 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

I personally think Dubai should change their immigration laws and how they treat foreignors.  It already said it's one possible outcome in these cases in their law for deportation, I think they should make it deportation in every case because it's offensive.

You'd think with all the investment and tourists they attract by portraying themselves as moderate and tolerable society they would have scrapped the extramarital sex law. How hard could that be?  

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, third_eye said:

This is tribal , not religious ... and all those so called 'honor' killings are punishable in both court of law and sharia ... something many gloss over for the sake of confirmation bias ... most of all this is just another example of demonstrable deplorable male behavior ... not religious or even political ...

~

I think its worth pointing out that one of the examples in the original link says that two Englishmen raped a women in Dubai and used the local laws to their advantage to escape jail. So yes there is a fair degree of male behaviour that fuels the rape laws of Dubai.

[Lilly]

3 hours ago, Arbenol said:

 

Could you point one out to me. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I've never come across one.

There are lots of articles about how feminists are basically silent about the abuse of women in radical Islam. Here's one: http://www.city-journal.org/html/why-feminism-awol-islam-12395.html

[Arbenol]

1 hour ago, Lilly said:

There are lots of articles about how feminists are basically silent about the abuse of women in radical Islam. Here's one: http://www.city-journal.org/html/why-feminism-awol-islam-12395.html

Thank you, Lily.

I basically agree that western feminism is largely silent about Islam, and concentrates on issues which appear much more mundane and trivial in comparison. That's not altogether surprising as people tend to be activists about what's happening in their own worlds. So they focus on reproductive rights and pay equality, etc....

But that's not what I asked. I specifically responded to this:

Quote

'feminists' turn around and support the 'cultural rights' of the very groups who advocate this type of treatment for women.

That suggests to me that you feel there are feminists who have specifically supported the abuse of women as a "cultural right" of Muslim males. I was wondering who these feminists are.

[Lilly]

If a woman says she's a feminist but then turns around and supports the right of a religion or culture to have beliefs and/or values that oppress other women,  then I would call her hypocritical. I've known women who do exactly this, it's not uncommon really. 

[Arbenol]

1 minute ago, Lilly said:

If a woman says she's a feminist but then turns around and supports the right of a religion or culture to have beliefs and/or values that oppress other women,  then I would call her hypocritical. I've known women who do exactly this, it's not uncommon really. 

Do you mean that they should reject and criticise all of Islamic religion and culture?

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Silver_Lyre said:

I think its worth pointing out that one of the examples in the original link says that two Englishmen raped a women in Dubai and used the local laws to their advantage to escape jail. So yes there is a fair degree of male behaviour that fuels the rape laws of Dubai.

Yes I agree entirely ... I remember how it was explained to me a long time ago ... the punishment for rape is death ... so it's not a verdict that is taken lightly ... technically the multi levels of interpreting the law begins at 'whether the woman goes to the man or the man accosted the woman' and if its the woman that goes to the man was the woman protected and taken all due course of action to ensure her own safety ?

Then only does the proceedings goes towards 'witnesses' and evidence ...

Anyway its an archaic and old Judaic law that is very hard to reconcile with the times ... the problem actually begins with 'already committed adultery in thy heart ...'

So by the exact words of the law, every time a woman accuses someone of rape she actually wins by default ... its all a hash and its the men that is holding all the cards as it stands

~

[Kismit]

1 hour ago, Arbenol said:

Do you mean that they should reject and criticise all of Islamic religion and culture?

I can't speak for Lilly, but her post says, if the belief opresses the rights of other women. I don't think you can really make that a blanket statement against a complex religion.

[Arbenol]

Just now, Kismit said:

I can't speak for Lilly, but her post says, if the belief opresses the rights of other women. I don't think you can really make that a blanket statement against a complex religion.

I'm just looking for some clarification. What you say above is about the specific beliefs and culture that oppress women. That's what I asked for. An example of a feminist that supports that culture.

[GlitterRose]

This is news? I thought everyone already knew this. 

[MordorOrc]

13 hours ago, Opus Magnus said:

What I wonder though, is why would single women, or even a couple, or anyone, go to one of these countries?  It's common knowledge these are dangerous countries to anyone who is not arab.

Money. Arab countries hire foreign workers, especially from the West, because there are so few locals who have similar education and can fill the roles needed. This was more the case say, 10 or 20 years ago when the oil wealth was resulting in rapid development but it's still the same. People move primarily because the wages on offer (for Westerners anyway) are more than what they'd be earning at home. 

[MordorOrc]

17 hours ago, Lilly said:

What I find mind boggling is that some of the so called 'feminists' turn around and support the 'cultural rights' of the very groups who advocate this type of treatment for women. Irrespective of ones religion or culture such treatment of women ( rape, genital mutilation, honor killing, slavery) absolutely has to be denounced and never tolerated. There is no such thing as 'moral relativism' in this regard and no one (individual, group, country) should ever back peddle on this. If such actions were being based upon a person's race instead of gender how quickly would people rise up in absolute fury. Yet, such actions towards woman are simply called 'religious practices' or 'cultural differences'. What disgusting hypocrisy.

From what I understand about Western feminism (or Third Wave feminism as it's largely interchangeable), is not that they support cultural rights of these kinds of societies but rather because they approach feminism from a very left wing (and somewhat vaguely Marxist) perspective. The idea that Western white feminists are telling women of colour how to be feminists, to them is condescending. In addition, they themselves believe they live in patriarchal and oppressive societies similar to those women in places like the Middle East live in. They see themselves not in positions of privilege but rather as comrades in a global struggle against the "patriarchy" and against "male privilege". The true irony of this is that Western society is permissive enough to allow these kinds of social movements to not only have the ability to organize, protest and have their say on society, but in a number of countries, they even influence government policy. They have more privileges in the West and are afforded more freedoms than women in places like the United Arab Emirates. 

Unfortunately for women of the world, Western feminists tend to lack the kinds of introspection that would make them realize that their positions on society in their own countries and on global feminist movements are out of touch with reality. That is not to say that the West, in general, is perfect when it comes to gender equality but there is a substantial difference in how societies in the West and societies in the Third World treat women. 

[Lilly]

8 hours ago, Arbenol said:

Do you mean that they should reject and criticise all of Islamic religion and culture?

Where did I say reject "all" of a religion or culture? I said the horrific treatment of women in extreme Islam should not be excused/accepted by feminists simply because of religion and culture. I then said to do this would be hypocritical as such violates the basic tenants of feminism.

Be careful about putting words into other people's mouths. I think I made my stance very clear there.

[Arbenol]

7 hours ago, Lilly said:

Where did I say reject "all" of a religion or culture? I said the horrific treatment of women in extreme Islam should not be excused/accepted by feminists simply because of religion and culture. I then said to do this would be hypocritical as such violates the basic tenants of feminism.

Be careful about putting words into other people's mouths. I think I made my stance very clear there.

I didn't put words in your mouth. It was a question as I wanted clarification. I don't really understand what you're saying.

You've said again here that feminists "excuse/accept" the "horrific treatment of women in extreme Islam". That's different from saying they remain largely silent about it.

So, can you provide some examples of feminists doing this?

[Bendy Demon]

There are just some "cultures" that just cannot and should not mix. Especially when you have cultures where grown men claim to not know or understand that boinking little kids is wrong or that throwing acid in the faces of female family members who marry outside their religion/culture/ethnic group is wrong or that punishing someone who was the victim of a crime is totally bassackwards.

It is one thing for a country to try to be inclusive, to some degree, but quite another to deliberately allows its laws to be violated and snubbed repeatedly because some atavistic culture refuses to acknowledge that raping, assaulting and beating others, especially kids is not the hallmark of a civilized culture.

I am looking at what is happening to Europe, for example. It looks like it is done for unless Frau Merkel (Mrs. Merkel) is unthroned and someone put in place that will take the trouble-makers and ship them right back to where they came from.

I don't think western laws are all that odd that they can't be respected and complied with; if you cannot figure out that adults should not be boinking kids then maybe you should stay in your own country until you can learn to respect people and take "No" as an answer that means "No!".

P.S: It is not my aim or meaning to come off as rude or confrontational and I am not out to offend anyone but at some point the countries that take in these supposed refugees need to make it clear that there are laws in place that state, pretty clearly, that civilized behavior is demanded and required. If you cannot control yourself and keep your mitts to yourself then maybe you need to find a country that suits you better.

[Lilly]

1 hour ago, Arbenol said:

 

So, can you provide some examples of feminists doing this?

I can't provide you a link, but I work part time at a public library and have heard several women (who do indeed call themselves 'feminists') pull out the moral relativism card and excuse and/or accept the terrible treatment of women in extreme Islam. I've heard these comments: "Well, after all this is what their religion believes" or "This treatment is just part of their culture so who are we to judge". Those two statements were said in my presence from two different women. Now, you can argue that such attitudes make these women anything but feminists...but they would disagree with you. I know this because I questioned one of them and she was very adamant on the issue.

[alibongo]

1 hour ago, Lilly said:

I can't provide you a link, but I work part time at a public library and have heard several women (who do indeed call themselves 'feminists') pull out the moral relativism card and excuse and/or accept the terrible treatment of women in extreme Islam. I've heard these comments: "Well, after all this is what their religion believes" or "This treatment is just part of their culture so who are we to judge". Those two statements were said in my presence from two different women. Now, you can argue that such attitudes make these women anything but feminists...but they would disagree with you. I know this because I questioned one of them and she was very adamant on the issue.

Well of course it is our place to judge, tell them, because we are more intelligent and enlightened.

[danielost]

1 hour ago, alibongo said:

Well of course it is our place to judge, tell them, because we are more intelligent and enlightened.

are we.  our women have to pierce their ears and wear high heals.

[Arbenol]

2 hours ago, Lilly said:

I can't provide you a link, but I work part time at a public library and have heard several women (who do indeed call themselves 'feminists') pull out the moral relativism card and excuse and/or accept the terrible treatment of women in extreme Islam. I've heard these comments: "Well, after all this is what their religion believes" or "This treatment is just part of their culture so who are we to judge". Those two statements were said in my presence from two different women. Now, you can argue that such attitudes make these women anything but feminists...but they would disagree with you. I know this because I questioned one of them and she was very adamant on the issue.

I guess you'll meet all sorts if you work in a library. 

But a couple of idiots don't really make a generalisation. Myself, I've never heard such stupidity. I read a fair bit, a lot of conservative driven material and a lot more of what you might consider a "leftist" agenda. 

Websites such a FtB and Skepchick are rammed full of liberal feminists ranting on about everything you could imagine. I've never read anything close to what you're saying. And that's why you can't provide a link. I have, however, read no end of scathing criticism and condemnation of this kind of culturally driven oppression. In this age of the Internet there are also countless contributions from women who are actually living these experiences. Believe me, they are anything but silent on the matter. Often putting themselves at great risk.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Arbenol

[Lilly]

Perhaps you need to come to my area in the USA full of extremely liberal, inclusive, non-judgmental, culturally sensitive, middle class women who support the concept of moral relativism...but still fancy themselves 'feminists'? We have quite a few of them around here.

[danielost]

58 minutes ago, Arbenol said:

I guess you'll meet all sorts if you work in a library. 

But a couple of idiots don't really make a generalisation. Myself, I've never heard such stupidity. I read a fair bit, a lot of conservative driven material and a lot more of what you might consider a "leftist" agenda. 

Websites such a FtB and Skepchick are rammed full of liberal feminists ranting on about everything you could imagine. I've never read anything close to what you're saying. And that's why you can't provide a link. I have, however, read no end of scathing criticism and condemnation of this kind of culturally driven oppression. In this age of the Internet there are also countless contributions from women who are actually living these experiences. Believe me, they are anything but silent on the matter. Often putting themselves at great risk.

then i guess you hadn't heard that when she was first lady, hillary tried to stop american women from going to a womens conference in china.