Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Scudbuster

Farewell to Faith

1,161 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Grandpa Greenman
17 minutes ago, P.Nomenon said:

Science and faith go hand in hand. It can drive men to do terrible things or propel others to do great things. Like these men and countless others who made clear that we exist in a planned universe which is governed by rules that were created, shaped by a universal intelligence and not by chance. Science needs faith and faith needs science as well. Science distinguishes between "fact" and "value", so past these factual realities we can't/shouldnt draw any further judgments as to say God doesnt exist at all. Consider the possibility that religious truth claims are, indeed, complex, absolute truth claims about the way in which all of reality is ordered. Faith is based on morality and conscience. It is a vehicle for humans to be in relationship with God. Even atheists and agnostics are in relationship with God, just as a child who has cut off all contact with a parent still has a blood tie to that person. I have my reasons for believing and I respect the views of others as long as it motivates you to live a good life, treat others well, and be happy, then it serves its purpose.

Sorry, but Science has one big difference from religion.  Science changes as new information becomes available, religion pretty much stays the same as it was revealed a thousand years ago.  I identify myself as Pagan, I'm in a relationship with the Earth, as in, I am the Earth's child. In my path I use and need science, but science doesn't need my path, nor does it need your's, either. Science is a process for observation, it is not a religion.  

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
back to earth
4 hours ago, markdohle said:

Religious people think for themselves. 

Ooooo !       I have had problems with that one in the past !      I would talk to this Christian guy at work as I wanted to know his take on things, so many times he would come back at me with " I will ask my pastor and get back to you on that ."    But I didnt want to know what his astor thought, I wanted to know what HE thought ... from HIS perspective and HIS life experience .   If I wanted to know that about the Pastor I would go and talk to him. So I told him that.

he said that made him very uncomfortable  and his pastor didnt like that and it appeared I was trying to 'trip him up' by appealing to reason ... so he should not be listening to me . 

I didnt find he thought for himself at all.    I have had more than one interaction like that !     

My 'computer guy'  is full on Christian, but he isnt like that at all , but he is pretty special. We recently had a talk about death , his ideas seemed pretty individual and he didnt quote or sprout anyone else's  'directions' on it .... actually, I was surprised hearing that from him ..... and he was surprised about how casual I was about it ...... actually, if an outsider had heard the conversation, they might have thought that I was the Christian in the conversation . 

4 hours ago, markdohle said:

 

Non believers also have a party line, just like the video, nothing new said, just a rehash.  I was never raised in a fundamentalist religion.  Our secular culture pretty makes people the same.

 

HUH ! ??        You dont see religious cultures doing that  ! ? ! ?   

Image result for Saudi women

 

 

4 hours ago, markdohle said:

  Same clothes, same tech apps, same music etc.  Same arguments about religion, abortion etc.  It is hard for anyone to think for themselves, but atheist tend not to, just the same old statements.   I don't mind atheist, but I do mind atheist who sound like black and white fundamentalist 'anything'.  I would like to see them in 20 years in another video.  There are lots of books out about atheist, who were raised in an atheist family who are now believers.....in God, not just in my particular path.  Today it takes study and thoughtful thinking and sharing to deepen what anyone believes....way too much noise and yes archetypal arguments that can be mind numbing.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish

In a conformist society individuality is a scary thing. Those who are able to really think outside the box are the monsters. Sheep of faith, sheep of government, sheep everywhere.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nuclear Wessel
3 hours ago, simplybill said:

In a nutshell: our spiritual connection to God was broken, but the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus makes it possible for us to reconnect. 

How do you know that a god even exists, much less that we ever had a spiritual connection to him? Also, Jesus' existence is still being debated to this day. Even if Jesus was "resurrected", how do we know that his birth, death, and resurrection is any way related to reconnecting "spiritually" with "God"?

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
59 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Ooooo !       I have had problems with that one in the past !      I would talk to this Christian guy at work as I wanted to know his take on things, so many times he would come back at me with " I will ask my pastor and get back to you on that ."    But I didnt want to know what his astor thought, I wanted to know what HE thought ... from HIS perspective and HIS life experience .   If I wanted to know that about the Pastor I would go and talk to him. So I told him that.

he said that made him very uncomfortable  and his pastor didnt like that and it appeared I was trying to 'trip him up' by appealing to reason ... so he should not be listening to me . 

I didnt find he thought for himself at all.    I have had more than one interaction like that !     

My 'computer guy'  is full on Christian, but he isnt like that at all , but he is pretty special. We recently had a talk about death , his ideas seemed pretty individual and he didnt quote or sprout anyone else's  'directions' on it .... actually, I was surprised hearing that from him ..... and he was surprised about how casual I was about it ...... actually, if an outsider had heard the conversation, they might have thought that I was the Christian in the conversation . 

 

HUH ! ??        You dont see religious cultures doing that  ! ? ! ?   

Image result for Saudi women

 

 

 

 

To generalize is one of the most irrational practices done by humans (yes I do it), yet stereotypes more often than not do not fit.  Yet like politics (look at what is going on in the United States over the vote) religion is very emotional and brings out the worst when too opposing groups met and don't want to listen to the other.  So politics and religion are problems, yet can we do without them?  Fanatics no matter who they are or what they believe are pretty much the same.

About the picture.  Secular governments do the same thing, it is called control.  When religion and politics marry you are asking for a double dose of trouble ;-). 

 

I am glad you have your friend but he is not that special, he is not a fundamentalist that is all.  Being Catholic I am well aware of how politics and power corrupts religion.  All groups have boundaries and to cross over them make you outside.  That goes for all groups, so nothing wrong with having certain beliefs, it is when we want to scream, fight and even kill over them that we have a real issue.......this will probably in the end push us back into a more primitive age after we have one last great big powerful angry in you fact war to end all wars.



 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

In a conformist society individuality is a scary thing. Those who are able to really think outside the box are the monsters. Sheep of faith, sheep of government, sheep everywhere.

I agree, it is getting worse today I believe.

peace
mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
1 hour ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Sorry, but Science has one big difference from religion.  Science changes as new information becomes available, religion pretty much stays the same as it was revealed a thousand years ago.  I identify myself as Pagan, I'm in a relationship with the Earth, as in, I am the Earth's child. In my path I use and need science, but science doesn't need my path, nor does it need your's, either. Science is a process for observation, it is not a religion.  

No, science and religion do go hand in hand.  The war is a superficial one.  The first men of science where christian not pagans.  Pagans believe in cycles not in time that moves forward.......yet the pagan path has something to tell us I believe, to get back in touch with our correctness to the world around us, it all about balance.  Also science as you already know does not deal with the questions that religion does, when they fight they miss out on what each other has to say.  Many men of science or believers, many or not.......it can go either way.

 

Peace
mark

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
oldrover
5 minutes ago, markdohle said:

The first men of science where christian not pagans

No they really weren't. What are you basing that statement on? 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish

The first men of science were consider heretics and were often killed because of it.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
28 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

The first men of science were consider heretics and were often killed because of it.

That is not true, study your history.  Even with Galileo it was a contest between two powerful personalities. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
P.Nomenon
1 hour ago, Grandpa Greenman said:

Sorry, but Science has one big difference from religion.  Science changes as new information becomes available, religion pretty much stays the same as it was revealed a thousand years ago.  I identify myself as Pagan, I'm in a relationship with the Earth, as in, I am the Earth's child. In my path I use and need science, but science doesn't need my path, nor does it need your's, either. Science is a process for observation, it is not a religion.  

Thats right but they still go hand in hand. Science is a fundamental tool in understanding aspects of reality.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
back to earth
1 hour ago, markdohle said:

To generalize is one of the most irrational practices done by humans (yes I do it), yet stereotypes more often than not do not fit.  Yet like politics (look at what is going on in the United States over the vote) religion is very emotional and brings out the worst when too opposing groups met and don't want to listen to the other.  So politics and religion are problems, yet can we do without them?  Fanatics no matter who they are or what they believe are pretty much the same.

About the picture.  Secular governments do the same thing, it is called control.  When religion and politics marry you are asking for a double dose of trouble ;-). 

 

I am glad you have your friend but he is not that special, he is not a fundamentalist that is all.  Being Catholic I am well aware of how politics and power corrupts religion.  All groups have boundaries and to cross over them make you outside.  That goes for all groups, so nothing wrong with having certain beliefs, it is when we want to scream, fight and even kill over them that we have a real issue.......this will probably in the end push us back into a more primitive age after we have one last great big powerful angry in you fact war to end all wars.



 

Soooooo    ... you do  see religious cultures   doing that then ... not just  secular ones .    

I dont get the fundamentalist bit ; neither  of those Christians  ( the Christian that did want to talk about his own beliefs and the one that didnt ) were not fundamentalists .  

Some religions have  social codes; diets, dress, behavior, etc  .     I think that sorta says that people of that religion should be 'the same'.  

Edited by back to earth
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
back to earth
1 hour ago, markdohle said:

No, science and religion do go hand in hand.  The war is a superficial one.  The first men of science where christian not pagans.

?    Wot  ?   

 

1 hour ago, markdohle said:

  Pagans believe in cycles not in time that moves forward.......

Pagans dont believe time moves forward  ? ? ?       Wot ?  

I guess we will have to ask the pagans  .....   anyone want to answer that one ? 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
simplybill
1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

How do you know that a god even exists, much less that we ever had a spiritual connection to him? Also, Jesus' existence is still being debated to this day. Even if Jesus was "resurrected", how do we know that his birth, death, and resurrection is any way related to reconnecting "spiritually" with "God"?

 

First,  I have to repeat:  it's impossible to prove spiritual matters with material tools.

Second,  I can only offer a testimonial type of explanation as to my confidence in the existence of a benevolent God:

In 1977, I drove to Santa Monica, California with a friend who owned a motor home . We arrived there late at night, and being our first time in California, we asked a gas station attendant for directions to the beach. He told us that the beach was just down the street. We parked the motor home and went to sleep. The following morning, we woke up and saw the ocean directly ahead of us, only about two blocks away. The ocean was right there, right in front of us, but we weren't aware of it until it was illuminated by the light of the morning sun.

And that's how it happened with my conversion. A couple of my high school friends had become Jesus Freaks, and they pestered me to no end, "You gotta try Jesus!" Finally one night I said, "God, if it's true what they're saying, then I want to know."  My friend came to my house just before midnight. He explained a few things to me, and asked if I wanted to pray. 

And just as in the book of Genesis, God said, "Let there be Light" and from that moment I began to see the things that had always been there, right there in front of me, but I had been unable to see because of my darkness.

Some people will attribute my experience to chemicals, dopamine, and so forth, but even the most powerful of those things are unable to change a person's entire worldview in one brief moment of time.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish
15 minutes ago, simplybill said:

Some people will attribute my experience to chemicals, dopamine, and so forth, but even the most powerful of those things are unable to change a person's entire worldview in one brief moment of time.  

So it was just an emotionally charged belief that set your subconscious ablaze? 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
33 minutes ago, oldrover said:

No they really weren't. What are you basing that statement on? 

OK I regret getting involved in this discussion.  I tend to stay away from them because pretty much the same thing is stated over and over again, the arguments have almost become alive, the paths of the talking at each other or so worn out. 

It seems that people want simple black and white sides to take, sort of like the political climate here in the United States and perhaps elsewhere.  Both sides fear the other, stereotype each other too death and then wonder why the country is so split.  

The argument about science and religion is no different.  Do  what I do when the need arises.  I find out for myself.  If people want to make statements about the opposing side that is based on black and white thinking, well and good,.  However I believe if more actually went and read the other side from moderate authors, much of what goes on here would not be needed.  To understand the position of an atheist or a believer does not mean you have to change in anyway, but it does broaden ones understanding of others.  A moderate is not someone who has a weak faith, or belief in science, they just try to moderate how they respond and try to understand the other side. 

I go to a site that is a Christian forum, some of the posters make my head explode with their attitudes of those who believe and think other than they do.  Yet others tend to want to see both sides in order to be fair.  So in order to be just, look into the relationship between science and Christianity, but go to sites that don't back you up.  There are good honest people on both sides of the divide.  Not all Christian are Westboro Baptist Christians.  The easiest trap to fall into is to judge another group by their worst and not by their best. 

Like I said, I can't believe I stepped into this ;-).

Peace
mark

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
39 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Soooooo    ... you do  see religious cultures   doing that then ... not just  secular ones .    

I dont get the fundamentalist bit ; neither  of those Christians  ( the Christian that did want to talk about his own beliefs and the one that didnt ) were not fundamentalists .  

Some religions have  social codes; diets, dress, behavior, etc  .     I think that sorta says that people of that religion should be 'the same'.  

Well the closer you look, the more you see that it is not true.  In secular culture is it much different? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
simplybill
Just now, XenoFish said:

So it was just an emotionally charged belief that set your subconscious ablaze? 

I'm not a very emotional person, which has been an asset in navigating the minefield of false teachers within the Christian community. One has to be very analytical in this business!  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
33 minutes ago, back to earth said:

?    Wot  ?   

 

Pagans dont believe time moves forward  ? ? ?       Wot ?  

I guess we will have to ask the pagans  .....   anyone want to answer that one ? 

 

They are in touch with nature, the season, that is what reincarnation is all about.  Much of paganism is healthy, they are not trapped in their head, but seek to develop more intuitive ways of dealing with reality.  Wish we had more of that if truth be told.

I like Starhawk, I read her, of course don't always agree, but she is a good speaker for the pagan path:

https://www.onfaith.co/onfaith/2007/10/12/a-pagan-view-of-death/5132

http://starhawk.org/writing/books/the-pagan-book-of-living-and-dying-excerpt/

Of course modern paganism is varied like any other movement.  However I really like her writings
 

Peace
Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
Quote

HUH ! ??        You dont see religious cultures doing that  ! ? ! ?  

 

 

Of course I do. 

Peace
Mark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
1 hour ago, markdohle said:

Well the closer you look, the more you see that it is not true.  In secular culture is it much different? 

 

Yes a secular culture is vastly different. Because one does not feel they much conform to the wishes of a creator, we make our own meaning count, and as each person sees things differently the differences abound. Tech does not make people conform, it is a creature comfort that makes life easier, and that is what everyone wants. Tech can appeal to a gamer, a surfer,  Muslim a Christian, it is universal to all aspects of culture and allows people to communicate and share ideas. Multiculturalism is a secular aspect that brings out the best in all cultures and shares them. In a secular environment cultures can display wares, arts and aspects of said culture for others so enjoy, but if you go to a religious centre like Jerusalem, these cultures are hellbent on killing each other over faith. 

Edited by psyche101
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
7 hours ago, simplybill said:

It's impossible to prove spiritual matters with material tools, other than the "9th planet" metaphor, whereby something unseen is influencing the world we live in. 

Then how is it religion states that God manifests himself to man in the Bible? 

According to what it says, the supernatural does manifest in the material realm, and often appears such as a whirlwind or fire accompanied by a disembodied voice. We can explain natural events well, we know why the wind blows, we know why fire starts, we know why rain falls. We can tell if something is happening that should not be, and can as such detect this alleged supernatural force, which logically has to be present if there really is an afterlife like religion professes and God really is everywhere such as is described. No such force no matter how minute has ever been detected in the history of every controlled experiment ever performed, yet we do detect very weak forces.

7 hours ago, simplybill said:

Regarding the video: my conversion has been the opposite, leaving agnosticism for belief. Being "born again" brought an awareness of the spiritual component of life, and eventually a better understanding of God, and people, and life in general. 

A personal journey is just that - personal. It has no bearing on what is happening on the real world. One may choose that preference for their own personal satisfaction, but it has no bearing on others, or the real world. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
2 hours ago, P.Nomenon said:

Thats right but they still go hand in hand. Science is a fundamental tool in understanding aspects of reality.

They do not go hand in hand at all. They come to vastly different conclusions. Science is not really a tool, it is an understanding, more a process, science builds models to help us reach conclusion and make discoveries. And that understanding erodes religion with each new discovery made. As such, with one slowly dissolving the other, I cannot see how you figure they go hand in hand. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
On 11/24/2016 at 9:10 AM, Scudbuster said:

Can't agree more -

Me too. Circular arguments, huge contradictions, non answers to fill gaps in knowledge, and plain silly explanations for the real world.

When one applies science to religion, it erodes religion. If there was a level playing ground without indoctrination, I just can't see how religion is a viable alternative to real world knowledge, even considering it provides personal comforts to some. The comparisons to Santa and the Easter bunny not only become apparent, but take on proper meaning when we do apply real world knowledge to the religious fables which are supposed to explain the universe and everything in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101
20 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

3 people brought up in fundamentalist churches, where the Bible is taken literally. I feel bad for them. Glad they realized it's nonsense. I hope somebody told them that believing in a creator god without religion is absolutely possible (see Deism).

The stated that the arguments of divine creations are circular and the logic does not hold up. The best sort of atheist - a rational one utilising reason and real world knowledge to come to a real world conclusion based on real world facts. Does not matter who told them such, non answers do not compare to real world ones. 

And Davros is right, Deism is just another non answer. 

Edited by psyche101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.