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Scudbuster

Farewell to Faith

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Davros of Skaro
9 hours ago, markdohle said:

Religious people think for themselves.

All I see is imagination filtered  (more like anchored) through a fictional character that when shown evidences to this fact they run away.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

Non believers also have a party line, just like the video, nothing new said, just a rehash. 

That's funny. I see you rehashing the same nonsense in a constant spray of weekly posts. You think you are thinking, but it's the same garbage over, and over again to justify mental record skip.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

I was never raised in a fundamentalist religion.

Neither was I, and I could have fallen in the same trap you are in, but I care more for truth instead of getting high off of thoughts.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

  Our secular culture pretty makes people the same.  Same clothes, same tech apps, same music etc.

You sure reap the benefits of this secular culture, and have the friggen nerve in another post that implies Christianity has a monopoly on scientific progress.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

  Same arguments about religion, abortion etc.  It is hard for anyone to think for themselves, but atheist tend not to, just the same old statements.  

Yes. To counteract the same old nonsense espoused by folks like you.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

I don't mind atheist, but I do mind atheist who sound like black and white fundamentalist 'anything'.  I would like to see them in 20 years in another video. 

I would like to see your fiction exposed for what it is in adocumentary on American primetime TV. Then watch your numbers plummet for the next 20 years.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

There are lots of books out about atheist, who were raised in an atheist family who are now believers.....in God, not just in my particular path. 

You should see the growing numbers of Youtube videos of deconversions that grew out of your death cult.

9 hours ago, markdohle said:

Today it takes study and thoughtful thinking and sharing to deepen what anyone believes....way too much noise and yes archetypal arguments that can be mind numbing.

No it doesn't. Maybe to reinforce the confirmation bias, and, or to tunnelvision a specific belief then yes. Just look at the other sections in this forum. You have people believing all sorts of nonsense, and dare I say worse than yours. 

Just picture the proverbial Donkey with the Carrot stick dangling in front of it. That's pretty much our Brains, and you think you have truth? HA!

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Davros of Skaro
7 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

The video comes from The Thinking Atheist, a community promoting a particular worldview (Neo-atheism).

Don't be fooled.

The difference between you, and me is a face in the clouds. You would say it's by design, and I would say it was natural.

d993cf2d1c53d2e188583381928755cc.jpg

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psyche101
3 hours ago, markdohle said:

To generalize is one of the most irrational practices done by humans (yes I do it), yet stereotypes more often than not do not fit. 
 

I just can't see that being right Does the stereotype of a violent Muslim fit all? Does the Stereotype of an Italian man with a hairy chest and big gold medallions apply to all Italian men? Does the stereotype of Irish being slow apply to Irish people? No, we have aspects of these characters in every culture, every walk of life and their polar opposites. 

I do agree people generalise, I do agree people stereotype, we look for patterns in things, not a great personal aspect IMHO, and that is how people have religious faith, personal application of aspects we want to ascribe to feel important or explain things in terms we have been conditions to understand. And that is why these people had this epiphany, that is why science and religion are opposing, not working together. They had the guts to investigate the immense disparities when they tried to verify faith, and admitted to themselves the non answers religion provides just do not cut the mustard when applied to the real world. If we really do want to "know" we need to put personal wants aside, and concentrate on observation, data and equations. And that is where the people in the video saw the vast differences between religion, and the real world. That is where religion falls apart. It can work just fine in ones own head, and always as hindsight. It just makes sense, Humans are fallible, humans can be corrupted, what happens in nature happens, it cannot be swayed and corrupted, It is what it is, like it or lump it. Removing the human error element, and replacing it with something that is not corruptible is how we improve productivity in many aspects, math never says 2+2=5. But a person might. 

These people well illustrate why science and religion do not work together at all. Because they come to different conclusions through different methods. 

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Mr Walker
On 24/11/2016 at 10:15 AM, Podo said:

These three were able to fight their indoctrination. This is good.

In your opinion, is anything a child learns from a parent indoctrination, or only the things you don't agree with?  Teaching children beliefs values ethics and moralities is not indoctrination. It is what parents are supposed to do;.ie teach a child not only the parents values based on experience and wisdoms gained in life, but pass on the values, rules, laws and expectations,of the society in which the child must eventually take its place. 

And the fact many  young adults reject ANY of their parents' beliefs, values, ethics and moralities, while sad, is evidence that tis not indoctrination  Indoctrination would not be so easily thrown off, as a child is exposed to wider opinions, views,and beliefs in the world. 

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psyche101
7 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

The video comes from The Thinking Atheist, a community promoting a particular worldview (Neo-atheism).

Don't be fooled.

Deism isn't  particular world view? I would say it is, and based on redundant ideals. I cannot see how facts are fooling, that is what New Atheism is based upon. Deism is not based upon facts, it is based upon old ideals. 

The clue is the word Thinking in the title there, religion requires a distinct lack of that it works with non answers. Deism is just another form of that. 

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Habitat
2 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

All I see is imagination filtered  (more like anchored) through a fictional character that when shown evidences to this fact they run away.

That's funny. I see you rehashing the same nonsense in a constant spray of weekly posts. You think you are thinking, but it's the same garbage over, and over again to justify mental record skip.

Neither was I, and I could have fallen in the same trap you are in, but I care more for truth instead of getting high off of thoughts.

You sure reap the benefits of this secular culture, and have the friggen nerve in another post that implies Christianity has a monopoly on scientific progress.

Yes. To counteract the same old nonsense espoused by folks like you.

I would like to see your fiction exposed for what it is in adocumentary on American primetime TV. Then watch your numbers plummet for the next 20 years.

You should see the growing numbers of Youtube videos of deconversions that grew out of your death cult.

No it doesn't. Maybe to reinforce the confirmation bias, and, or to tunnelvision a specific belief then yes. Just look at the other sections in this forum. You have people believing all sorts of nonsense, and dare I say worse than yours. 

Just picture the proverbial Donkey with the Carrot stick dangling in front of it. That's pretty much our Brains, and you think you have truth? HA!

Ahem ! methinks the old nagging doubts are biting again. You are too heavily invested in such diatribe, not to be internally conflicted.

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psyche101
8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

In your opinion, is anything a child learns from a parent indoctrination, or only the things you don't agree with?  Teaching children beliefs values ethics and moralities is not indoctrination. It is what parents are supposed to do;.ie teach a child not only the parents values based on experience and wisdoms gained in life, but pass on the values, rules, laws and expectations,of the society in which the child must eventually take its place. 

And the fact many  young adults reject ANY of their parents' beliefs, values, ethics and moralities, while sad, is evidence that tis not indoctrination  Indoctrination would not be so easily thrown off, as a child is exposed to wider opinions, views,and beliefs in the world. 

That is an old world view, and fraught with error. When you stated this last time, I showed you a 12 year old boy who stood up to Ten Thousand people marching against the gay community. LINK - See 12-year-old boy stand up against anti-gay protesters in Mexico

You said the boy should be reprimanded.

That shows how you are supporting intolerance through old values that fail us. We need to give children the opportunity to think in order to make this a better world. Those old values will not. You would stifle this boy from progressing, and shaming ten thousand adults who are less tolerant than a 12 year old boy. They should be ashamed of themselves. He should not be reprimanded, he should receive a medal. 

This world of Walkers you say would be a better place simply would not be so. 

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simplybill
2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

 No such force no matter how minute has ever been detected in the history of every controlled experiment ever performed, yet we do detect very weak forces.

A personal journey is just that - personal. It has no bearing on what is happening on the real world. One may choose that preference for their own personal satisfaction, but it has no bearing on others, or the real world. 

Regarding the first bolded sentence:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to believe that no proof = no God, whereas I'm confident that the proof that you're looking for doesn't exist.  We're saying much the same thing, though from different perspectives: It is impossible to prove spiritual matters using material tools. 

Regarding the second bolded sentence:

Judeo/Christian ethics are a very real part of the real world. They have withstood the test of time. When held accountable to its own principles, Judeo/Christian ideology is still the ideology that is most likely to lead to the greatest amount of justice and freedom for the greatest number of people.

Regarding my personal journey, it also is important in the sense that relating my personal conversion experience has given some people an opportunity to view their circumstances from a different perspective. And like C.S. Lewis, I don't try to convert those who feel that the preponderance of evidence weighs against Christianity. I try not to be a pest. 

 

       

 

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crookedspiral
2 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

The difference between you, and me is a face in the clouds. You would say it's by design, and I would say it was natural.

d993cf2d1c53d2e188583381928755cc.jpg

Nope, I'd say it's pareidolia. ;)

9ibegw.jpg

Edited by TruthSeeker_

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crookedspiral
46 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Deism isn't  particular world view? I would say it is, and based on redundant ideals. I cannot see how facts are fooling, that is what New Atheism is based upon. Deism is not based upon facts, it is based upon old ideals. 

The clue is the word Thinking in the title there, religion requires a distinct lack of that it works with non answers. Deism is just another form of that. 

So you agree that there is an agenda behind this video?

 

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Habitat

Oh for the glorious days of the "Old" atheism, you could respect it day in and day out, mainly because the "believers" were simply not interested in promoting it, up hill and down dale, like some of the dorks around here. They disliked preachers, and they did not fall into the trap of becoming what they disliked.

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psyche101
1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Regarding the first bolded sentence:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to believe that no proof = no God, whereas I'm confident that the proof that you're looking for doesn't exist.  We're saying much the same thing, though from different perspectives: It is impossible to prove spiritual matters using material tools. 

Yes, that is wrong.

Not "no proof" but beter proof that shows this is a natural Universe. There is simply no reason to think God exists at all. It was an ancient stab at trying to understand the world, and then as our knowledge grew - the Universe. It was wrong. 

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Regarding the second bolded sentence:

Judeo/Christian ethics are a very real part of the real world. They have withstood the test of time. When held accountable to its own principles, Judeo/Christian ideology is still the ideology that is most likely to lead to the greatest amount of justice and freedom for the greatest number of people.

Nope, Christianity is considered to have superseded Judaism, science has well and truly superseded religion. Religion is a redundant ancient ideal that we used as a benchmark to gain actual knowledge from initial guesses.  

1 hour ago, simplybill said:

Regarding my personal journey, it also is important in the sense that relating my personal conversion experience has given some people an opportunity to view their circumstances from a different perspective. And like C.S. Lewis, I don't try to convert those who feel that the preponderance of evidence weighs against Christianity. I try not to be a pest. 

Exactly, it is personal, and cannot apply to the world as a whole, it is your interpretation which goes against the grain of gathered knowledge. As such, it is a story, like any other, and tells something about you, it does not apply to anything else on earth but yourself, unless people wish to adopt it for their own personal reasons. Thing is, the view of a creator can be bettered by real world knowledge, which can be shared with others and demonstrated upon demand. Thats gives it both precedence and credibility. 

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psyche101
1 hour ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

So you agree that there is an agenda behind this video?

 

Of course there is, to share real world knowledge where others are promoting fantasy. It is also a right and responsibility IMHO. 

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back to earth
6 hours ago, markdohle said:
6 hours ago, markdohle said:

Well the closer you look, the more you see that it is not true.  In secular culture is it much different? 

 

But I am not looking closer .... I was looking at  what religions say groups of people should do as individuals to distinguish themselves as that religion by forming a group.

I dont know what the fact that individuals in a group being all different when you look close has to do with that.  But yes, any group of ... anythings.... you look at , the more close you look the more differences you see in the individual members of a like group.  

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back to earth
7 hours ago, markdohle said:

They are in touch with nature, the season, that is what reincarnation is all about.

Ummmm .... no , reincarnation isnt about being in touch with nature the seasons .   Maybe nowadays it has become that in some New Age meaning ..... they just seem to make them up as they go along .  

Quote

  Much of paganism is healthy, they are not trapped in their head, but seek to develop more intuitive ways of dealing with reality.  Wish we had more of that if truth be told.

I like Starhawk, I read her, of course don't always agree, but she is a good speaker for the pagan path:

https://www.onfaith.co/onfaith/2007/10/12/a-pagan-view-of-death/5132

http://starhawk.org/writing/books/the-pagan-book-of-living-and-dying-excerpt/

Of course modern paganism is varied like any other movement.  However I really like her writings

yeah ... thats great ... whatever ... now, back to what I was asking, and you quoted me on and responded (for some reason ) with the above ...... that is  the stuff about time !  Remember ?    You claimed pagans did not ' believe in time that moves  forward '  and that they believe 'in cycles'   instead . 

Quote

Peace
Mark

yeah ... okay  ..... but this time thing  ??? 

Edited by back to earth
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Davros of Skaro
5 hours ago, Habitat said:

Ahem ! methinks the old nagging doubts are biting again. You are too heavily invested in such diatribe, not to be internally conflicted.

So, you see begging Jesus Christ to receive his mercy, or following the revelations of Allah handed down to his Prophet as a necessary lifestyle choice?

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Davros of Skaro
5 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Nope, I'd say it's pareidolia. ;)

9ibegw.jpg

Excellent! 

Now how do you differentiate between a universe derived naturally,  between a designed universe?

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Habitat
Just now, davros of skaro said:

So, you see begging Jesus Christ to receive his mercy, or following the revelations of Allah handed down to his Prophet as a necessary lifestyle choice?

No, I don't have any such inclinations. 

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Davros of Skaro
Just now, Habitat said:

No, I don't have any such inclinations. 

Neither do I, and I will fight back those that do. You are no different with your slow thinking remarks.

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Habitat
8 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

Neither do I, and I will fight back those that do. You are no different with your slow thinking remarks.

You keep fighting the fight, though mostly it is battle within you. Such is how it goes in a secular society, you can ignore religions with impunity, but the inner man is another matter.

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Davros of Skaro
7 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You keep fighting the fight, though mostly it is battle within you. Such is how it goes in a secular society, you can ignore religions with impunity, but the inner man is another matter.

I'm pushing back those that would say that your personal experiences was caused by Demons, or Jinn. 

You are pushing back those that would say you're delusional, and, or a liar.

I said neither to you. 

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Habitat
1 minute ago, davros of skaro said:

I'm pushing back those that would say that your personal experiences was caused by Demons, or Jinn. 

You are pushing back those that would say you're delusional, and, or a liar.

I said neither to you. 

 

Huh ? I suppose what interests me most about discussions around here is the psychology that underlays peoples stated views, not so much whether those views represent an external, objective reality, which in many cases we cannot know, the information is not available.

 

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Davros of Skaro
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

 

Huh ? I suppose what interests me most about discussions around here is the psychology that underlays peoples stated views, not so much whether those views represent an external, objective reality, which in many cases we cannot know, the information is not available.

 

Neither is your guessing about my psychology can you know.

Irony.....

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Habitat
1 minute ago, davros of skaro said:

Neither is your guessing about my psychology can you know.

Irony.....

If you think I mistake your motives, perhaps you can give a more accurate report ? I am more than happy to be corrected.

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Davros of Skaro
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

If you think I mistake your motives, perhaps you can give a more accurate report ? I am more than happy to be corrected.

You're the one vaguely guessing. Why not fill me in.

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