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Scudbuster

Farewell to Faith

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Habitat
1 minute ago, davros of skaro said:

You're the one vaguely guessing. Why not fill me in.

You don't understand your own seeming antipathy to organized religion ? I don't think much of it either, but they don't bother me like they apparently bother you. I see far greater problems in the world.

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Davros of Skaro
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You don't understand your own seeming antipathy to organized religion ? I don't think much of it either, but they don't bother me like they apparently bother you. I see far greater problems in the world.

Well I see it as part of the problem. Sorry you cannot see that.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, davros of skaro said:

Well I see it as part of the problem. Sorry you cannot see that.

I am far more apprehensive about drug-affected people than people with religious fervour.

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Davros of Skaro
Just now, Habitat said:

I am far more apprehensive about drug-affected people than people with religious fervour.

Well that's great. Read my "Holy Dopamine Ghost" thread because it's the same neurology.

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

Well that's great. Read my "Holy Dopamine Ghost" thread because it's the same neurology.

It us not the same end result at all, drugs=crime, religious affiliation does not.

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Davros of Skaro
6 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It us not the same end result at all, drugs=crime, religious affiliation does not.

So a TV preacher bilking old people of their savings is not a crime?

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eight bits

Habitat

Quote

It us not the same end result at all, drugs=crime, religious affiliation does not.

Now there's one hell of a straight line. As Bill Maher famously remarked, I don't know if faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers.

However, I take your larger point that chronic neurotoxin abuse is a different matter than possessing a normally functioning, and normally responsive, neural system.

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Habitat
Just now, davros of skaro said:

So a TV preacher bilking old people of their savings is not a crime?

It is not a crime, apparently, or the police would be involved, and the preacher would be in jail. 

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Davros of Skaro
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It is not a crime, apparently, or the police would be involved, and the preacher would be in jail. 

Well...well...well. Looks like I found a way to circumvent a loophole in the law that takes advantage of people.

You go fight drugs, while I fight delusion.

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Habitat
Just now, eight bits said:

Habitat

Now there's one hell of a straight line. As Bill Maher famously remarked, I don't know if faith can move mountains, but I've seen what it can do to skyscrapers.

However, I take your larger point that chronic neurotoxin abuse is a different matter than possessing a normally functioning, and normally responsive, neural system.

I don't think the 9/11 hijackers were what you'd call devout muslims, they drank, gambled, and cavorted with call girls, by some reports.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, davros of skaro said:

Well...well...well. Looks like I found a way to circumvent a loophole in the law that takes advantage of people.

You go fight drugs, while I fight delusion.

You are a crusader against the "evil" of religion, living in a secular society where no-one is under any compulsion to pay any attention to religion ?  I think you are fighting a war that was won long ago. Try again to understand your obsession.

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Davros of Skaro
4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You are a crusader against the "evil" of religion, living in a secular society where no-one is under any compulsion to pay any attention to religion ?  I think you are fighting a war that was won long ago. Try again to understand your obsession.

 

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Habitat

Hallelujah brother !

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XenoFish

Here in 'Merica it's a predominantly Christian society. If you're not christian you're an outsider. I live in the bible belt where there's (typically) a church on every corner. 

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Davros of Skaro
28 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Here in 'Merica it's a predominantly Christian society. If you're not christian you're an outsider. I live in the bible belt where there's (typically) a church on every corner. 

Not often, but often enough I have to bite my lip when people mention "influences of God" in conversation. For example people will tell me that God is going to bless me....The Lotto would be nice.

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Nuclear Wessel
13 hours ago, simplybill said:

In 1977, I drove to Santa Monica, California with a friend who owned a motor home . We arrived there late at night, and being our first time in California, we asked a gas station attendant for directions to the beach. He told us that the beach was just down the street. We parked the motor home and went to sleep. The following morning, we woke up and saw the ocean directly ahead of us, only about two blocks away. The ocean was right there, right in front of us, but we weren't aware of it until it was illuminated by the light of the morning sun.

And that's how it happened with my conversion.

So... forgive me, but why did this event convert you? 

Quote

And just as in the book of Genesis, God said, "Let there be Light" and from that moment I began to see the things that had always been there, right there in front of me, but I had been unable to see because of my darkness.

Or, alternatively... you had what is known as a temporal lobe epileptic seizure which facilitates extreme sense of religiosity.

Quote

Some people will attribute my experience to chemicals, dopamine, and so forth, but even the most powerful of those things are unable to change a person's entire worldview in one brief moment of time.  

I am certainly one of those people. I also disagree with your latter statement in that "the most powerful of those things are unable to change a person's entire worldview in one brief moment of time", because that is exactly what appears happened with you, assuming that you were suddenly converted after having that experience. I also think you had a temporal lobe seizure.

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Grandpa Greenman
14 hours ago, back to earth said:

?    Wot  ?   

 

Pagans dont believe time moves forward  ? ? ?       Wot ?  

I guess we will have to ask the pagans  .....   anyone want to answer that one ? 

 

Technically it is not cyclical, it is viewed as a spiral.    Of course, it all depends on the Pagan path.  Some are closer to Hindu whose cosmology is cyclical.  In a spiral spiritual cosmology the beginning and the end are not the same, thus time moves on...  

time-spiral.jpg

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eight bits

Habitat

Quote

I don't think the 9/11 hijackers were what you'd call devout muslims, they drank, gambled, and cavorted with call girls, by some reports.

Yes, but devout Muslims believe in the "scales," that your Quality of Afterlife is determined by the net balance of good and bad in your earthly record, whether the good "outweighs" the bad. Martyrdom for the cause outweighs a great deal of bad.

For what it's worth, what I recall is that there was an FBI report which said that some of the perps' last nights were spent indecorously. That is, after they had committed themselves to the project of martyrdom, they reckoned (rationally, if the "scales" premise is granted) that they could afford to have some fun, and still earn their full allotment of heavenly virgins.

(Or as davros would say, let some dopamine flow, over and above the dopamine that was already flowing just for thinking that Allah approved of the plan. Versatile stuff that dopamine; whetever happens, dopamine explains it. Insh'amine.)

Edited by eight bits
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Davros of Skaro
15 hours ago, simplybill said:

Some people will attribute my experience to chemicals, dopamine, and so forth, but even the most powerful of those things are unable to change a person's entire worldview in one brief moment of time.  

Yes it can. You were fed dogma, had a dopaminergic release, and imprinted reward learning in your Brain.

Of course I do not expect you to see the light. 

"In a new study, U-M researchers Arif Hamid and Joshua Berke, professor of psychology and biomedical engineering, argue that dopamine levels continuously signal how good or valuable the current situation is regarding obtaining a reward. This message helps people decide how vigorously to work toward a goal, while also allowing themselves to learn from mistakes.

“We provide a new theoretical account for how dopamine affects learning (what to do later) and motivation (getting fired up to go now) simultaneously,” said study lead author Hamid, U-M neuroscience doctoral student.

For many years, researchers have known that dopamine is important for arousal, movement, mood and executing activities with haste and vigor. Aspects of these normal dopamine functions are highlighted in disorders, such as Parkinson’s disease and depression. Drugs that elevate brain dopamine levels, like cocaine or amphetamines, produce euphoric feelings of well-being, in addition to heightened arousal and attention.

Aside from affecting immediate mood and behavior, dopamine also produces changes in the brain that are persistent, sometimes lasting a lifetime.

“This is basically how we stamp in memories of what the smell of cookies or the McDonald’s sign mean: predictors of delicious, calorie rich rewards,” Hamid said.

Abrupt dopamine increases when a person perceives stimuli that predict rewards is a dominant mechanism of reward learning within the brain—a concept similar to Russian physiologist Ivan Pavlov’s dog hearing the bell and salivating at a response to stimuli, he said."

http://neurosciencenews.com/dopamine-learning-reward-3157/

imagination-just-to-make-things-convenie

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Davros of Skaro
9 minutes ago, eight bits said:

(Or as davros would say, let some dopamine flow, over and above the dopamine that was already flowing just for thinking that Allah approved of the plan. Versatile stuff that dopamine; whetever happens, dopamine explains it. Insh'amine.)

Just like driving when drunk makes sense, so does just about anything else makes sense through the grace of the HDG. :)

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jmccr8

To me god doesn't"belong" to a religion, man pigeon holes him into a faith. When I quite going to church it wasn't because I found fault with that there is a god it was because of how people expressed their beliefs and rejected anyone who was not a part of their system. Holy wars have been going on for thousands of years and I suspect that many who have been involved were not there because of their faith but rather that those guys killed my family and have been doing so for as long as their families can remember. More like the Hatfeilds and MacCoys  a feud that nobody actually remembers how it started. I don't think that we are given the abilities that we have so that they can be stifled by doctrine which is why I don't have a problem with having a concept of god and science to me it is a natural progression of the gifts that we are given by god.

 I generally don't involve myself in religious discussion as for the most part it is a futile endeavor but things have been kind of slow it the areas of the forum that hold the most interest for me so rather than let my interest in this forum fade I have been interacting in these threads for some mental stimulation and a few laughs. For the most part I am an impartial observer but there are a couple of posters that are clearly in the alternative on both ends of the spectrum so I have been butting in every now and again because I find it odd that such fire can burn without having any logs in it.:lol:

there are some very good rebuttals made and I suppose that is why I keep reading.Well that and I am still trying to learn how to type faster with two fingers.:lol:

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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crookedspiral
8 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

Now how do you differentiate between a universe derived naturally,  between a designed universe?

Fine-tuned Universe

Edited by TruthSeeker_

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simplybill

Regarding seizures and dopamine:  I've been a Christian for nearly 45 years. I doubt that a seizure and a dose of dopamine could have such long-lasting effects. I'm not doubting that seizures and dopamine exist; I'm doubting your belief that their influence is permanent.

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Davros of Skaro
20 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

"The premise of the fine-tuned cloud with a face assertion is that a small change in several of the water vapor fundamental physical constants would make the cloud with a face radically different. As Stephen Hawking has noted, "The laws of science, as we know them at present, contain many fundamental numbers, like the size of the water vapor of the condensation and the ratio of the evaporation of the water molecules and the outside temperature. ... The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of cloud with a face." "

Edited by davros of skaro

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oldrover
18 hours ago, markdohle said:

OK I regret getting involved in this discussion.  I tend to stay away from them because pretty much the same thing is stated over and over again, the arguments have almost become alive, the paths of the talking at each other or so worn out. 

It seems that people want simple black and white sides to take, sort of like the political climate here in the United States and perhaps elsewhere.  Both sides fear the other, stereotype each other too death and then wonder why the country is so split.  

The argument about science and religion is no different.  Do  what I do when the need arises.  I find out for myself.  If people want to make statements about the opposing side that is based on black and white thinking, well and good,.  However I believe if more actually went and read the other side from moderate authors, much of what goes on here would not be needed.  To understand the position of an atheist or a believer does not mean you have to change in anyway, but it does broaden ones understanding of others.  A moderate is not someone who has a weak faith, or belief in science, they just try to moderate how they respond and try to understand the other side. 

I go to a site that is a Christian forum, some of the posters make my head explode with their attitudes of those who believe and think other than they do.  Yet others tend to want to see both sides in order to be fair.  So in order to be just, look into the relationship between science and Christianity, but go to sites that don't back you up.  There are good honest people on both sides of the divide.  Not all Christian are Westboro Baptist Christians.  The easiest trap to fall into is to judge another group by their worst and not by their best. 

Like I said, I can't believe I stepped into this ;-).

Peace
mark

Thanks, I have to say though that I don't get involved in this sort of debate as a rule either. I consider myself to be a moderate atheist. And to be sympathetic to, but largely disinterested in, the beliefs of others.

My only question was why you thought that the first scientists were Christian, when science, the gathering and consolidation of knowledge through observation and experimentation was going on well before the birth of Christ. And in societies which we now think of as being pagan.   

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