brlesq1 Posted November 28, 2016 #51 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Interesting thread. I believe the mind is truly a powerful thing, and not to be taken for granted and or used lightly. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 28, 2016 Author #52 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Both success and failure are both a thought away. Choices are what makes up our lives. Either conscious or unconscious decisions. The power of thought is apparent when we think about our favorite food. We give it strength, we might get a phantom smell, taste, our mouth may water at the thought of it. Given enough attention we may very well find ourselves going out to get it. Maybe it was a candy bar or a piece of pie. Does the thought of a nice warm cup of hot chocolate make you feel all fuzzy inside? It is through our beliefs that we see the world, once a belief is made/shown to be true it becomes a fact and much easier to believe in. I believe in gravity because I see the effects of it. I know my belief to be true. What you may believe about someone is based on knowledge and experience or rumor. But unless those assumptions are back by facts it's an unproven belief. We have a lot of those beliefs in our lives. You've really got to dig deep inside to find them, once you do you see how they influence how you think, feel, and act. If you want to test the power of belief, just spend a few minutes each morning thinking about your day. All the stuff you have to do/want to do. Approach this with a bit of realistic optimism. Think to yourself that "I will get this done" or something along those lines. Then keep notes on how much you achieve each day. This is just a bit of mental magick. A realistic version of the 'law of attraction'. The most important thing however is to not just think about what you want to achieve or how you want to feel, but to act that way. The only way to prove any of this is through person experiment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 28, 2016 Author #53 Share Posted November 28, 2016 Derren Brown using the Placebo effect. Showing how suggestion and belief can affect us. Plus it's entertaining. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted November 28, 2016 Author #54 Share Posted November 28, 2016 The Divine Placebo, God. More Derren Brown entertainment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted November 29, 2016 #55 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Mr W Quote Training animals does not demonstrate any abilty to think like a human does. Didn't say it did. The issue addressed was the other poster's confidence that non-human species do not and cannot stop and think before exhibiting behavioral change. That's a fairly narrow inquiry compared with whether species A "thinks like" species B (any A; any B). I thought it prudent to establish that I had seen animal behavioral change personally. It seemed unnecessary to add, given the context, that witnessing behavioral change had not inspired in me the same confidence about the absence of stop-and-think as it apparently has in the other poster. Sorry if that was unclear. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khol Posted November 29, 2016 #56 Share Posted November 29, 2016 11 hours ago, Mr Walker said: No, humans are unique, although a few individual animals, and a couple of species, are close behind us on the evolutionary path (without help from humans they will reach our level in perhaps 100000 years but i hope we can help them evolve a bit faster because it would be nice/helpful to have the perspective of other self aware species ) There aren't any other animals with greater than a four year old human's capacity of mind, and most have far less The problem is that human level self aware consciousness requires language capable of abstract thought, symbolic attachments etc., as well as many other skills which few non humans possess. Without human- like " language of the mind" other species CANNOT have many of the qualities which humans have . HOWEVER, this uniqueness gives us a unique responsibility and duty, NOT a right to do as we please We can change the planet and we KNOW we can We can make it a hell hole or a paradise There is no other species which has this duty or responsibility and, in itself, this defines the difference between humans and all other animals Only when a whale carries a placard saying, "save the humans", can we know that whales have human like qualities, and that we are not unique on earth. When another primate holds one of its species accountable for rape, murder, or infanticide, then we can know that they have reached human level self awareness, and we are no longer unique. When another animal writes music, creates art, or is creative in a way which is not simply a evolved form of communication, and which uses symbolic/abstract representations to transfer meaning, THEN we will no longer be unique of course Im not going to walk down to my little pond and see a frog playing the banjo and singing yankee doodle but you also won't see a human doing any of these http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_688_28-real-animal-abilities-you-wont-believe/ https://www.buzzfeed.com/kellyoakes/incredible-animals-with-real-superpowers?utm_term=.xfME2P4Mb#.xb1XxBR2g this was the angle I was coming from and Xenofish great opening post, I enjoyed reading it..my apologies for getting off topic somewhat! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted November 29, 2016 #57 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Khol Quote of course Im not going to walk down to my little pond and see a frog playing the banjo and singing yankee doodle Hasn't Mr W already done that? It's hard to keep track. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted December 2, 2016 #58 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) A Fruit Fly has nearly the same basic neurochemical motivators as us. They do not have a thinking Frontal Cortex as us, so a Placebo Effect belief cannot be implanted in them. They can have a chemical Placebo though. "Being love-struck also releases high levels of dopamine, a chemical that “gets the reward system going,” said Olds. Dopamine activates the reward circuit, helping to make love a pleasurable experience similar to the euphoria associated with use of cocaine or alcohol. Scientific evidence for this similarity can be found in many studies, including one conducted at the University of California, San Francisco, and published in 2012 in Science. That study reported that male fruit flies that were sexually rejected drank four times as much alcohol as fruit flies that mated with female fruit flies. “Same reward center,” said Schwartz, “different way to get there.” " http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/love-and-brain I see this Placebo switcharoo all over the place. Edited December 2, 2016 by davros of skaro Forgot link due to HDG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted December 2, 2016 #59 Share Posted December 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, davros of skaro said: That study reported that male fruit flies that were sexually rejected drank four times as much alcohol as fruit flies that mated with female fruit flies. “Same reward center,” said Schwartz, “different way to get there.” " The implication being that this "fact" is transferable to human behavior ? Reductionist madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted December 2, 2016 #60 Share Posted December 2, 2016 8 hours ago, Habitat said: The implication being that this "fact" is transferable to human behavior ? Reductionist madness. I'm using science. You use coincidence as confirmation. You can't get more slow thinking than that. The placebo of a higher power is rooted in the Dopamine Reward System. Just abstain from alcohol for a week, and take a double shot of Whiskey. The same high can be achieved through thought. We are all motivated for this reward just as the Fruit Fly. Deny this, and you deny the transformative powers of the placebo Holy Dopamine Ghost. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted December 2, 2016 Author #61 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, davros of skaro said: powers of the placebo Holy Dopamine Ghost. The angels came to me saying that the Divine Placebo shall send it's Dopamine Spirit unto man, So that Saint Serotonin be upon us. Forever and always, amen. Edited December 2, 2016 by XenoFish 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactic Goatman Posted December 6, 2016 #62 Share Posted December 6, 2016 This reminds me of a quote: "Religion makes people feel good!" "So does heroine, whats your point?" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted December 6, 2016 #63 Share Posted December 6, 2016 On 29/11/2016 at 1:03 PM, eight bits said: Mr W Didn't say it did. The issue addressed was the other poster's confidence that non-human species do not and cannot stop and think before exhibiting behavioral change. That's a fairly narrow inquiry compared with whether species A "thinks like" species B (any A; any B). I thought it prudent to establish that I had seen animal behavioral change personally. It seemed unnecessary to add, given the context, that witnessing behavioral change had not inspired in me the same confidence about the absence of stop-and-think as it apparently has in the other poster. Sorry if that was unclear. Just clarifying what was meant by think. Humans think in linguistic, symbolic, and abstract forms, using tools which other animals do not posses. To equate human with non human thinking can lead a person into many serious errors Yes, to a degree all animals "think" or we could not train them, but not in any way as a human being thinks . That is impossible without a language- equivalent abilty, to process and order, information data and thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted December 6, 2016 #64 Share Posted December 6, 2016 On 29/11/2016 at 1:07 PM, khol said: of course Im not going to walk down to my little pond and see a frog playing the banjo and singing yankee doodle but you also won't see a human doing any of these http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_688_28-real-animal-abilities-you-wont-believe/ https://www.buzzfeed.com/kellyoakes/incredible-animals-with-real-superpowers?utm_term=.xfME2P4Mb#.xb1XxBR2g this was the angle I was coming from and Xenofish great opening post, I enjoyed reading it..my apologies for getting off topic somewhat! Animals behaviour is genetically programmed, with biological drivers allowing them little, if any choice, in how to behave They evolve wonderful ,complex, very powerful, but very specific abilities, which maximise their survival within niches of the environment On the other hand humans are generalists and can live anywhere any other animal can live, even if that requires the abilty to use technology. Even without modern technology our generalist abilities allow us to alter our environment to survive,meaning we do not need specialist adaptations for survival eg we use fire, or make a coat from animal skin, or create a vessel to carry water with us. Without sharp teeth or claws, and only a flint spear or knife, we can bring down most other animals on earth. Creativity and complex language are the two indicators of human like intelligence When you see another animal displaying true creativity or complex language skills to communicate abstract and symbolic ideas, you will see an animal who has reached the evolutionary standard humans reached about 100000 years ago (and possibly more) Examples might be fertility figurines, cave paintings, glyphs or rock carvings, totemic offerings ceremonial burials etc Certainly creative music to entertain, or for spiritual purposes, would fit. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted December 6, 2016 #65 Share Posted December 6, 2016 Mr W Quote Just clarifying what was meant by think. OK, but the subject of my comment was another poster's use of the everyday colloquial phrase "to stop and think." It was clear that he was not laboring the obvious, that the human use of human speech is specific to humans. You and I differ about the depth, richness and effectiveness of animal cognition and, evidently, about the reciprocal character of "training." I can accept those differences, and this isn't the ideal thread topic in which to pursue them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted December 6, 2016 #66 Share Posted December 6, 2016 On 12/2/2016 at 10:36 PM, davros of skaro said: I'm using science. You use coincidence as confirmation. You can't get more slow thinking than that. The placebo of a higher power is rooted in the Dopamine Reward System. Just abstain from alcohol for a week, and take a double shot of Whiskey. The same high can be achieved through thought. We are all motivated for this reward just as the Fruit Fly. Deny this, and you deny the transformative powers of the placebo Holy Dopamine Ghost. Maybe you should adopt "slow thinking", you jump to conclusions, and very likely erroneously, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khol Posted December 6, 2016 #67 Share Posted December 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Mr Walker said: Animals behaviour is genetically programmed, with biological drivers allowing them little, if any choice, in how to behave They evolve wonderful ,complex, very powerful, but very specific abilities, which maximise their survival within niches of the environment On the other hand humans are generalists and can live anywhere any other animal can live, even if that requires the abilty to use technology. Even without modern technology our generalist abilities allow us to alter our environment to survive,meaning we do not need specialist adaptations for survival eg we use fire, or make a coat from animal skin, or create a vessel to carry water with us. Without sharp teeth or claws, and only a flint spear or knife, we can bring down most other animals on earth. Creativity and complex language are the two indicators of human like intelligence When you see another animal displaying true creativity or complex language skills to communicate abstract and symbolic ideas, you will see an animal who has reached the evolutionary standard humans reached about 100000 years ago (and possibly more) Examples might be fertility figurines, cave paintings, glyphs or rock carvings, totemic offerings ceremonial burials etc Certainly creative music to entertain, or for spiritual purposes, would fit. . Originally this was in regards to a comment about animals being purely instinctual creatures. In no way did I infer they had matched or superior cognitive abilities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted December 6, 2016 #68 Share Posted December 6, 2016 6 hours ago, Habitat said: Maybe you should adopt "slow thinking", you jump to conclusions, and very likely erroneously, imo. I'm not the one that makes dietary decisions over litter on the ground thinking it's a paranormal derived sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted December 6, 2016 #69 Share Posted December 6, 2016 11 hours ago, khol said: Originally this was in regards to a comment about animals being purely instinctual creatures. In no way did I infer they had matched or superior cognitive abilities Behaviour is driven by a linear progression of drivers,from something like photo sensitivity in plants, and chemical recognition in insects, through to some capacity to "think' in animals.Some animal species and some specific animals get quite close to human cognition, but none show any more abilty than a very young child (under the age of 4) Basically because they don't have the quality of mind ( a set of quite specific skills, in part related to language) to be able to process and evaluate data in complex patterns, they cannot break from their evolved genetic drivers (although the y can be trained in quite sophisticated,post Pavlovian ways) I am a 95% vegetarian and a strong supporter of several animal welfare groups including Ifaw and wwf But for me humans make a critical error when they consider humans to be ONLY another animal, or that other animals think like humans, and thus can/should be treated like humans. It is not best for the animals, nor for the humans, when humans think of animals as human like beings. We have a responsibility to animals and the environment, which no other animal has for us, or to the environment, for example. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted December 8, 2016 #70 Share Posted December 8, 2016 On 12/6/2016 at 10:54 PM, khol said: Originally this was in regards to a comment about animals being purely instinctual creatures. In no way did I infer they had matched or superior cognitive abilities Once Walker gets hold of your post ... it can be turned into anything ! Then the following argument ... I mean 'discussion' - have fun ! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted December 8, 2016 #71 Share Posted December 8, 2016 95 % vegetarian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted December 9, 2016 Author #72 Share Posted December 9, 2016 17 hours ago, back to earth said: Once Walker gets hold of your post ... it can be turned into anything ! Then the following argument ... I mean 'discussion' - have fun ! Once Walker showed up I gave up on my own thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted December 11, 2016 #73 Share Posted December 11, 2016 On 12/5/2016 at 8:36 PM, AustinHinton said: This reminds me of a quote: "Religion makes people feel good!" "So does heroine, whats your point?" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted December 11, 2016 #74 Share Posted December 11, 2016 On 12/7/2016 at 0:12 AM, davros of skaro said: I'm not the one that makes dietary decisions over litter on the ground thinking it's a paranormal derived sign. Taken in isolation, no, but in total, irresistible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khol Posted December 11, 2016 #75 Share Posted December 11, 2016 On 09/12/2016 at 6:19 AM, XenoFish said: Once Walker showed up I gave up on my own thread. What an incredible mechanism.Your post reminds me of the power of our minds and the influence it can have.I think it was davros who said earlier "thought provoking"...thankyou and dont give up! (: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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