The Magical Placebo Effect

[khol]

[eight bits]

Xeno

Quote

Once Walker showed up I gave up on my own thread.

Meh. You got off easy. Another nearby thread is now completely devoted to somebody's inability to work the forum's quote function.

Right now, your thread is tops on S v. S, as far as I'm concerned. Carry on. Otherwise the trolls win.

[XenoFish]

The imaginary friend aspect

I have remarked quite a few times about seeing religion and spirituality as being a form of self-therapy. To put this as best I can, it's a stress reliever. To project your stress, anxiety and worry onto an 'external' entity allows you to release mental tension. Not only does this release stress but it put the mind in motion, looking for a solution without excess worry. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201311/adults-have-imaginary-friends-too

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201604/daring-hear-voices

Consider that from a religious/spiritual perspective it's imaginary friends with benefits. However obsession is always a problem. When your beliefs begin to take over you. This is also why I say temper your beliefs with reason and logic. Keep yourself grounded. 

I can and have chatted up with many gods and goddess's about my life's problems. Then as if something magical I find myself with a subtle flood of ideas that present a solution to the problem at hand. How? Well, I've basically asked myself how to solve a problem. I gave my subconscious a task to perform and it dug through my knowledge till something/s of benefit could be presented. My imaginary friend acted as a more direct link to my subconscious. A witch's familiar is also a product of their imagination. Which works the same way.

The problem is when you become obsessed with the idea of any god. This is apparent when it comes to religious guilt and the fear that god will punish you for anything you do. Another problem is when you think that a spirit/god/demon etc. will make something external happen. Such thinking leads to confirmation bias and magical thinking.

I saw a demon in the mirror

Pareidolia, it's how we see animals in cloud formations and faces in trees. It's our brain making something familiar.  One form of evocation is the use of a mirror. Typically in a dark room, with a pair of lit candles beside it. So as to cast light on your face. The magician focuses deeply on his/her face till they start seeing images. These images are a product of pareidolia and front loading. They expect to see a spirit, angel, or demon. So their brains will make the image in the mirror they see appear as so. 

Not only does this work with a mirror it can also work with smoke. Seeing a demonic face in smoke because you on some unconscious level want to see one.

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

On 11/25/2016 at 5:55 PM, XenoFish said:

What is magick? According to Crowley magick is the art and science of creating change in accordance to will. By this thought any intentional act is one of magick. I like to think of magick as a change in consciousness. I write a lot about how it's a placebo effect. In medical science a placebo is a substance that in inert. It has no actually effect on the person taking it. It's effect comes from their belief in it. Depending on the strength of their belief it may or may not have a solid effect. But what has this to do with magick or even religion. The gods, spirits, demons, and angels are placebo. They are metaphysical placebo's. Let's take for example Astaroth since we had a thread about him earlier this year.

Astaroth is a Duke of hell with the shape of a foul angle riding an infernal dragon with a viper in his hand. He commands 40 legions of demons.

The mind can directly interact with probabilities to have influence over reality.

The reason being is the information gaining ability of the mind (molded by its beliefs, opinions and ideas) allows it to collapse and alter probabilities. You in fact already know this. You know if an event has a 50% chance of happening and you get extra information increasing it to 99% then the event is 99% likely to occur. Perceptions, beliefs, opinions and ideas also limit or enable the types of information making it into our minds.

What most people don't get is they think what is out there is already determined when it isn't. All outcomes to a probability co-exist as a little slice of multiverse until enough information gaining has occurred to leave just one possible outcome. The collapse process can be reversed too using meditation, or willful blindness to information past and present.

Remember, if you don't remember and don't perceive it then that information never existed to begin with.

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

The mind can directly interact with probabilities to have influence over reality.

The reason being is the information gaining ability of the mind (molded by its beliefs, opinions and ideas) allows it to collapse and alter probabilities. You in fact already know this. You know if an event has a 50% chance of happening and you get extra information increasing it to 99% then the event is 99% likely to occur. Perceptions, beliefs, opinions and ideas also limit or enable the types of information making it into our minds.

What most people don't get is they think what is out there is already determined when it isn't. All outcomes to a probability co-exist as a little slice of multiverse until enough information gaining has occurred to leave just one possible outcome. The collapse process can be reversed too using meditation, or willful blindness to information past and present.

Remember, if you don't remember and don't perceive it then that information never existed to begin with.

Have you got anything to back this claim? 

[eight bits]

Xeno

Quote

 I saw a demon in the mirror

Pareidolia, it's how we see animals in cloud formations and faces in trees.

With a mirror, and a negative-unrealistic percept, it's more likely "strange face illusion." Giovanni Caputo and his group are making a name for themselves with this.

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/practical-magic-on-main-street-halloween-1914/

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/practical-magic-for-you-and-a-friend-this-halloween/

Quote

Not only does this work with a mirror it can also work with smoke.

With smoke, that's probably pareidolia (depending on what the smoke is the smoke of ).

The key difference is control. Strange face is a kind of malfunction, and therefore what pops up may be too weird. With pareidolia, that's normal functioning, and so both what comes up is +/- manageable and typically, you can choose to see what's really there if you prefer (the cloud as cloud, or the textured surface as just textured, etc.)... interesting when you think about that, since seeing the animal in the cloud or gay Jesus on the French toast is often spontaneous.

Edited December 11, 2016 by eight bits

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Have you got anything to back this claim? 

If you think about it carefully you'll realize you do it all day long everyday. You have some unknown behaving as a probability to you. You either gain partial information on it narrowing down the probability to a few possible outcomes. Or you gain full information collapsing the probability leaving just one outcome behind. That is all self apparent and logical. 

What I suspect you are asking is can you show that there is a piece of multiverse there hiding behind the abstraction we call a probability which enables all outcomes of that probability to co-exist. So that as information is gained outcomes get eliminated until enough information has been received leaving just one. Is this right?

Its quite easy to prove.

A police officer has a map on his office board where he sticks a pin in to mark where a car theft occurred. On its own a single pin doesn't tell him much so he cannot predict with any accuracy where the car thief lives. As such he knows that in the street the crime occurred there is a small chance (we will call it 0.5%) that he lives in any particular house. As the distance from the car theft increases to nearby streets and then the wider area that chance drops. If the criminal is caught at this stage (due to a tip off) and it gets added to the national crime statistics website then the probability appointed to each house turns out to be accurate. Obviously, this can only be shown and the model proved after 1000's of similar criminals have been caught. The model has been proved by the way, this is one of the tools criminologists use.

Now lets suppose he doesn't get caught after the first theft. Lets pretend another 20 thefts occur over the next 6 months. Each theft is new information which results in a new pin going into that map. Before long a pattern starts to appear showing that the criminal is travelling out from his house in various directions to steal cars from several streets away. From the new information the police officer is able to narrow down where he lives to within 5 houses. The middle house having a 60% chance of him living there. The criminal is then caught due to this intelligence and he gets added to the national crime statistics database. Again, the location where the criminal lived fits the model used for predicting where he lives as tested by 1000's of similar cases.

So what is going on here? The first probability map is correct if we only gain limited information. It is wrong if we gain further information because the probability of where the criminal lives has been narrowed down altering what is possible. We need a new probability map now. One that is different from the first probability map yet also turns out to be correct if we limit ourselves to that further information.

Think about that, because that is crazy - gaining information alters what can come out of a probability. And at each stage the only way the probability can be correct is if its undetermined exactly where the criminal lives. Determination only happens when the completely probability is collapsed leaving an outcome. Until then the criminal can live in any house the continuously narrowed down probability map grants him a chance of living in. And if you think that is wrong then in the first scenario you can find the criminal living in a house its impossible to find him in if you go all the way to the second scenario.

The multiverse is hidden behind the abstraction we call probabilities.

Edited December 11, 2016 by RabidMongoose

[khol]

12 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The imaginary friend aspect

I have remarked quite a few times about seeing religion and spirituality as being a form of self-therapy. To put this as best I can, it's a stress reliever. To project your stress, anxiety and worry onto an 'external' entity allows you to release mental tension. Not only does this release stress but it put the mind in motion, looking for a solution without excess worry. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201311/adults-have-imaginary-friends-too

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201604/daring-hear-voices

Consider that from a religious/spiritual perspective it's imaginary friends with benefits. However obsession is always a problem. When your beliefs begin to take over you. This is also why I say temper your beliefs with reason and logic. Keep yourself grounded. 

I can and have chatted up with many gods and goddess's about my life's problems. Then as if something magical I find myself with a subtle flood of ideas that present a solution to the problem at hand. How? Well, I've basically asked myself how to solve a problem. I gave my subconscious a task to perform and it dug through my knowledge till something/s of benefit could be presented. My imaginary friend acted as a more direct link to my subconscious. A witch's familiar is also a product of their imagination. Which works the same way.

The problem is when you become obsessed with the idea of any god. This is apparent when it comes to religious guilt and the fear that god will punish you for anything you do. Another problem is when you think that a spirit/god/demon etc. will make something external happen. Such thinking leads to confirmation bias and magical thinking.

I saw a demon in the mirror

Pareidolia, it's how we see animals in cloud formations and faces in trees. It's our brain making something familiar.  One form of evocation is the use of a mirror. Typically in a dark room, with a pair of lit candles beside it. So as to cast light on your face. The magician focuses deeply on his/her face till they start seeing images. These images are a product of pareidolia and front loading. They expect to see a spirit, angel, or demon. So their brains will make the image in the mirror they see appear as so. 

Not only does this work with a mirror it can also work with smoke. Seeing a demonic face in smoke because you on some unconscious level want to see one.

 

 

I believe what you say is true Xenofish. The mind uses religion as a form of self therapy,  a coping mechanism, a survival tool...but heres the deal, where is the reason and logic then? Why haven't our brains developed this. It a far better survival tool then living in OZ. 

https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-believe-in-God-2

over 6 billion?..what advantage are we gaining through a religous perspective? If the mind had developed one faith perhaps but a multitude have resulted in mass confusion, wars, discrimination and death.Its a flaw.They conflict with each other.Eventually conflict needs to end somehow.The cause being how people think differently. Evolution of our survival traits running amuck, branching off with different faiths and belief systems. There is a paradox. The mind creates a stress reliever with the individual but also creates it through conflict.The idea of religion planting the seed of a new system of things, peace on earth and all that could be a mechanism to drive our subconcious towards that goal but its failing miserably in that regard 

 

[David Henson]

My reaction to this was an interesting process. My initial thought was that the material itself wasn't interesting at all, except for possibly it's immediately apparent complexity, and then for it's lack of usefulness. It reminds me of the failed metaphysical experiment of evolution. It isn't really productive except for to make an attempt to explain a random series of events that may or may not have taken place. It doesn't actually measure the success of anything. In this it reminds me of fractional reserve banking. It isn't as useful as, say, giving your old electrical appliance a good swat when it isn't working properly. An emotional response that sometimes seems to produce the desired effect so that's what you do when you don't know what else to do. Sometimes it works, but it never fixes the problem, it never addresses the reality of the situation. Perhaps there's a loose wire or short that the swat eventually temporarily addresses but there's no real solution except for to keep swatting or find out what's really going on and fix it or get a new appliance. 

Then I thought, well, magic is the manipulation of an illusion. 

A placebo, is what? 30% effective. About the same as chemotherapy, but there have been about a dozen scientifically proven methods of curing cancer in the U.S.A. since the 1900's that are 70 to 90% effective, only they can't be patented so they are criminalized. It turns out far more profitable to ineffectively treat cancer than to cure it. 

So what is the practical application of the illusion, not actually producing anything or measuring and adjusting accordingly the reality to benefit the user? 

Obviously it passive aggressively denies the reality much like the cure of cancer by manipulating the illusion, the random results of a meaningless solution that may or may not work. Manipulating the illusion of a logical explanation more profitable to the user than the reality. The real solution.    

[XenoFish]

Ignore the post above it's practically useless. Why do you even bother to post anything? You seem cynical. I don't recall asking for your opinion on the subject either. So far you're not a very constructive member. 

[Sherry Gibson]

On 11/25/2016 at 3:12 PM, preacherman76 said:

The power of the mind is an amazing thing. Ive been learning a lot lately about using the mind to dictate your reality. To continually think about what you want from life, almost as though it already is. Practically beating those thoughts into your head daily till they are accepted by the subconscious mind. Learning that you are part of God, or as some like to call him, the source. You have the power to create your reality, but you have to break free from your programing. Awesome stuff.

Xen, you asked a question in another thread the other day. You asked whats so special about humans, that we are really just another animal. Not so. What separates us from basically any other being on this planet is our ability to look inward. Other creatures rely completely on instinct. What ever their natural reaction to something is, is the only way they can react. People on the other hand have the ability to chose several paths to any given situation. And have the ability to create a desired outcome. We can choose to no longer be a victim of circumstance, by understanding that circumstance has little to nothing to do with it. Understanding that what you choose to believe is your reality. The laws of attraction do not have a moral code. Its simply obedient. Any person anywhere can change their situation, simply by changing the way they choose to perceive

I like you,  Preacherman76!

[Sherry Gibson]

On 12/25/2016 at 10:04 AM, XenoFish said:

Ignore the post above it's practically useless. Why do you even bother to post anything? You seem cynical. I don't recall asking for your opinion on the subject either. So far you're not a very constructive member. 

Dearest XenoFish,  you are a pessimist who doesn't even believe people when they have actually had spiritual metaphysical experiences. I do not hallucinate,  nor am I delusional! Your scientific point of view is useless but, well written.  You're obviously highly educated but, I feel sorry for you. I don't even know why you are on this site! I wish you nothing but,  blessings dear Lost.

[XenoFish]

All you've got to do is show me factual evidence to change my mind. 

[Sherry Gibson]

Just now, Sherry Gibson said:

Dearest XenoFish,  you are a pessimist who doesn't even believe people when they have actually had spiritual metaphysical experiences. I do not hallucinate,  nor am I delusional! Your scientific point of view is useless but, well written.  You're obviously highly educated but, I feel sorry for you. I don't even know why you are on this site! I wish you nothing but,  blessings dear Lost.

Also, I didn't ask for this gift that often feels like a curse. I didn't believe either,  until these things started happening in my young life. Why would I want this, when most people think like you. There is no placebo effect here.I'm not insane dear.

[Sherry Gibson]

3 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

All you've got to do is show me factual evidence to change my mind. 

How can I show you what I see when you're too closed minded to believe anyone. As I already stated,  I feel and hear spirits. You're obviously not at all sensitive, and I couldn't begin to explain to someone who is so closed minded. I'm speaking of spiritual metaphysical experiences. You've already said that they are placebo effects. I assure you that they couldn't be more real.

[XenoFish]

Mental illness doesn't mean insanity. It just means some of your mental wiring is off. There are various levels. Most people will hallucinate from time to time. This often depends on their state of mind, such as fatigue. 

[Sherry Gibson]

Just now, Sherry Gibson said:

How can I show you what I see when you're too closed minded to believe anyone. As I already stated,  I feel and hear spirits. You're obviously not at all sensitive, and I couldn't begin to explain to someone who is so closed minded. I'm speaking of spiritual metaphysical experiences. You've already said that they are placebo effects. I assure you that they couldn't be more real.

I could never change your mind. You weren't there. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 minutes ago, Sherry Gibson said:

Also, I didn't ask for this gift that often feels like a curse. I didn't believe either,  until these things started happening in my young life. Why would I want this, when most people think like you. There is no placebo effect here.I'm not insane dear.

Welcome to UM Sherry!

I didn't see you mention it on this thread, but what gift/curse do you have?  Actually, most people do not think like Xeno, most people believe in spirits and supernatural things like that, depending on what you are referring to.

[Sherry Gibson]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Mental illness doesn't mean insanity. It just means some of your mental wiring is off. There are various levels. Most people will hallucinate from time to time. This often depends on their state of mind, such as fatigue. 

I'mnot mentally ill! If that were so; then often other's with me would be sharing the same hallucinations! I suggest that you find a much more suitable site to exercise your factual proven thinking.  Apparently you think that we're all mad here. 

[Sherry Gibson]

3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Welcome to UM Sherry!

I didn't see you mention it on this thread, but what gift/curse do you have?  Actually, most people do not think like Xeno, most people believe in spirits and supernatural things like that, depending on what you are referring to.

 

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Sherry Gibson said:

I'mnot mentally ill! If that were so; then often other's with me would be sharing the same hallucinations! I suggest that you find a much more suitable site to exercise your factual proven thinking.  Apparently you think that we're all mad here. 

Your first day and already you're making enemies. This'll be fun.

[Sherry Gibson]

Just now, Sherry Gibson said:

 

First of all I thank you Liquid gardens for your kind words. I was speaking of psychic phenomena and abilities.  We all have them. They are simply much more pronounced in some of us. I used to try to deny mine but, as they grew I couldn't help but,  go with the flow. Spirits are attracted to me because I'm a Sensitive. My original question was are Mimics demonic. 

[Sherry Gibson]

4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Your first day and already you're making enemies. This'll be fun.

I am who I am.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Sherry Gibson said:

I am who I am.

Yeah and you're going to get to know me real soon. Been awhile since I got to let loose. 

[Sherry Gibson]

On 11/25/2016 at 0:55 PM, XenoFish said:

What is magick? According to Crowley magick is the art and science of creating change in accordance to will. By this thought any intentional act is one of magick. I like to think of magick as a change in consciousness. I write a lot about how it's a placebo effect. In medical science a placebo is a substance that in inert. It has no actually effect on the person taking it. It's effect comes from their belief in it. Depending on the strength of their belief it may or may not have a solid effect. But what has this to do with magick or even religion. The gods, spirits, demons, and angels are placebo. They are metaphysical placebo's. Let's take for example Astaroth since we had a thread about him earlier this year.

Astaroth is a Duke of hell with the shape of a foul angle riding an infernal dragon with a viper in his hand. He commands 40 legions of demons.

As you can see right there we know what 'he' looks like. So if you do an evocation you've already gotten a preconceived notion as to what you'll be seeing. This is how pareodlia works in magick. You conscious and subconsciously know what you might see. 

As to what he can do. it is said that he can teach math, science, handicraft. Make men invisible, help them find hidden treasure, and give them command over serpents.

So how do these effects work. They establish beliefs. To put it as basic as I can. Astaroth is a placebo that allows an intention or desire to anchor itself into your deep mind. If you ask him for skill in math, what you've done is to basically set up a subprogram in your mind that will aid you in developing math skills. The better your skills become this reinforces your belief. Even in the case of finding 'lost treasure' this can be related to finding something that you've lost. By using Astaroth (the placebo) to tap into subconscious memory, you may remember exactly where you left your car keys.

This not only works for Astaroth but for God as well. Basically asking God for something is a way of taking your conscious off what you desire. Letting the subconscious work on the wish till it brings about a cognitive and/or behavioral change. Asking god for forgiveness is a means of releasing subconscious guilt. This doesn't mean you'll actually change, it means you've eased a mental burden. 

Sympathetic magick

Based on the law of similarity sympathetic magick is where a mental link is made between one thing and another. A good example of this is a voodoo doll. If you create a poppet (voodoo doll) and use someone hair as a part of it, you might think that by doing whatever you wish to the doll (like stabbing it) will affect the target individual. This set you up for a lot of confirmation bias. It tunes your conscious awareness to an expected results and will make you aware to anything similar to what you desire. Such as cursing the doll and seeing the target go through a personal hell. The problem is that you've done nothing but tune your awareness into that expectation.

 

Summoning and binding demons.

Demons like angels can be seen as little bundles of intention and emotion within our psyche. A demon of gluttony is a part of our own desire, it is us. Same with the demon of depression. If you give power to these mental demons they will have power over you. Sometimes they can be useful. By channeling anger into a work out you vent that emotion instead of building it up, creating a demon of rage. So on a human level both self control and stress relief are very important. So what has this to do with magick? Stress relief. Let's say that your a young teenage girl who just broke up with her boyfriend. You've got a lot of emotional pain and the psychological link between you and your ex are still strong. Lets say you decide to turn to a magick ritual to assist you. You take all the stuff he gave you and get rid of it. Then you find a wooded place to be a lone and build a small camp fire. You light it up and toss his picture in it, asking the goddess to break the link and ease your soul. So what have you done in reality? You've let go. This frees you from the 'demon of grief'. Same thing goes of a ritual for a more malicious purpose. You're focusing your emotions into a defined direction and once the ritual is over. The cognitive and behavior changes within you take place and whatever results you see are produced through confirmation bias.

One of the biggest pitfall to this type of personal expression is obsession. A love spell might change how you act around your crush, or it might very well make you a creep. That depends on the individual and how much emotional strength is behind that desire.

 

Your belief my belief and how our beliefs affect each other.

Your belief not only influence your behavior, but also those around you. Our belief shape our perception of reality and how we act toward it. Let's say that you've prayed that everything will be okay in a bad situation. This might make you more confident and this confidence will affect the choices you make, those choices will create a butterfly effect in your life. Bring about a larger change that may or may not go the way you expect. Does this only affect the religious or metaphysical practitioner? No. We create new beliefs each day. Sometimes we truthfully or falsely build them up. If you go into a job interview believing that you'll get the job you may or may not get it. The reason I say that it could go either way is because optimistic and pessimistic thoughts affect people differently. Someone who really wants the job might think they want get it but they will act in a matter that says to the interview "I want this job!"

 

Psychosomatic effects

Our beliefs also affect our health. Stress relief such as prayer, a spell, or meditation ease the mind and body. This is how thoughts affect us. It can also be a tricky problem. Let's say that you're going to a haunted location. You've already got this unconscious belief about what you are to expect. You go inside, time starts to pass, you get a bit creeped out. Then you feel a hand on your shoulder. It's a ghost you think. Then more and more paranormal events happen. You hear talking when no one is there, then you see the specter. You leave. So was it a real ghost or was it just your imagination? Trick question to answer really. Good chance it was your imagination. Since our thoughts affect our body it can be assumed that the phantom hand you felt was a product of your mind. The same applies with 'channeling energy'. You visualize the energy see it and 'feel' it. But what are you feeling? The actually energy? No, you're mentally creating the sensation based on the information that you have. Doing an elemental accumulation of fire will lead to a mind-body response that generates the sensation of heat. 

One thing I ask people to do in order to experience this is The Yawn. Imagine yourself yawning, the sounds, feelings, sensations, everything. Imagine yourself yawning. Repeat this mental imagery till you actually yawn. When you succeed you've consciously done what a lot of people unconsciously do.

 

Magical Thinking

Here's the part that a lot of people don't like. Just because you think about a song you haven't heard in a long time, then turn on the radio doesn't mean your thoughts have manifested. It's a coincidence. One of the biggest issues I have with various branches of the occult is magical thinking. Just because you prayed for someone doesn't mean it will affect them. Similarly just because you set a demon on someone doesn't mean that you actually did.

 

Good magick

I'm going to express my personal belief on good magick. No this isn't about light or dark magick. It's about results. In an objective based practice you must back up your intentions with actions. Just because you've fired a sigil, cast a spell, or said a prayer doesn't me that the cosmos is going to give you the golden ticket. You cast a spell for money don't spend all that you have. Good magick works through an internal change first then external. The external aspect requires action. You make it happen. If your don't take action you're just wishful thinking. 

 

Test, test, test, and repeat. 

Exaggerated claims. We've all read a ton of them. To keep your sanity you must be skeptical and test your results. This is the reason for the magicians journal. In fact if you are religious I say keep a prayer journal. This way you can take now to how the results come. Which will allow you to look back and see the step it took to get there. 

 

Believe nothing unless it can be proven.

Like before there are a lot of legit explanations for results in the spiritual realm. Confirmation bias, cognitive bias, self-fulfilling actions, magical thinking, wishful thinking, self delusion, visual, auditory, and tactile hallucinations. Even cases of hypnagogic and hypnopompic experiences. 

 

If it isn't real what's the point?

Change. That's the point. Magick like prayer is a form of self-help and self-development. Just because it doesn't give you super powers doesn't make it useless. Fire a sigil for weightloss and find yourself eating better or less while also working out. I know someone on this forum who did just that. Say a prayer to fix your life, then you find your life getting better, because you've changed. That's the point. If you change yourself the world changes around you. Not in the literal sense. 

 

Thank you for reading. I've been meaning to condense my perspective down to a single thread now. Also I'd like to thank Davros for pushing me to do this.

 

I'm sure I've forgotten a few thing and perhaps incorrect in a few spots. I'll update when new information is presented.

 

 

I hated these words and belief system.