The Magical Placebo Effect

[XenoFish]

Just now, Sherry Gibson said:

I hated these words and belief system.

Let the hate flow through you. Because truth hurts.

[+Liquid Gardens]

8 minutes ago, Sherry Gibson said:

I was speaking of psychic phenomena and abilities.  We all have them. 

I'm not so sure about that, although I'm always open to evidence for them, I've always thought they should be the easiest of abilities to actually establish the existence of if they are real.  Unfortunately, if I have any psychic abilities, I haven't been able to differentiate their existence from the scenario where I don't have them.  To be honest I don't think anyone actually has, but again I might just be ignorant of some good evidence for them.

[Sherry Gibson]

1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not so sure about that, although I'm always open to evidence for them, I've always thought they should be the easiest of abilities to actually establish the existence of if they are real.  Unfortunately, if I have any psychic abilities, I haven't been able to differentiate their existence from the scenario where I don't have them.  To be honest I don't think anyone actually has, but again I might just be ignorant of some good evidence for them.

Come and hang out with me for awhile. You may not feel or see but, I'm sure that you would hear spirits when they come around. Blessings to you!

[Sherry Gibson]

Just now, Sherry Gibson said:

Come and hang out with me for awhile. You may not feel or see but, I'm sure that you would hear spirits when they come around. Blessings to you!

We all have a sixth sense. 

[XenoFish]

15 minutes ago, Sherry Gibson said:

Come and hang out with me for awhile. You may not feel or see but, I'm sure that you would hear spirits when they come around. Blessings to you!

All that through the power of suggestion.

[Herr Falukorv]

31 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 Actually, most people do not think like Xeno, most people believe in spirits and supernatural things like that.

Njaaaa no I dont think so.. Not where I come from anyway.
I actually dont know of a single person who believes in anything supernatural or in religious stuff.
Yes sure I have an old friend whos parents go to church at christmas and easter. But thats it.

We have all probably been afraid of ghosts,spirits and monsters when we where kids but then most of us who grew up come to understand that they dont exist.




 

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Welcome to UM Sherry!

I didn't see you mention it on this thread, but what gift/curse do you have?  Actually, most people do not think like Xeno, most people believe in spirits and supernatural things like that, depending on what you are referring to.

Yeah I noticed a mild poke at me there LG. Especially in a section of the forum were skepticism vs spirituality, and in my own thread. I could understand it in a different section but in this one. What are you implying?

On a different note.

Those that "see and hear spirits" are victim to a self-reinforcing feedback loop because of cognitive/confirmation bias. They want to believe so adamantly that what they wish is true that anything that says, "Yes it's paranormal." is accepted as truth. 

 

[preacherman76]

3 hours ago, Sherry Gibson said:

I like you,  Preacherman76!

Well at least someone does, lol Nice to meet you Sherry

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah I noticed a mild poke at me there LG. Especially in a section of the forum were skepticism vs spirituality, and in my own thread. I could understand it in a different section but in this one. What are you implying?

Whoops, zero poke was intended Xeno but I see how it can be read that way.  I didn't mean anything more by 'most people don't think like Xeno' than as a direct rebuttal to what I quoted from Sherry, "most people think like you"; on spirituality subjects, most people do not think like you and I (considering there are 4.8 billion Christians, Muslims, and Hindus in the world), most people seem to think there are gods/spirits.  Some believers in the supernatural, and in my experience especially those believing they have special powers, tend to pose themselves as courageous lone mavericks having to brave a withering deluge of unreasonable skepticism by the rest of the world, when in reality, depending on what we're talking about, their beliefs are not even in the minority.  But yea, my bad on the wording of my response to her, and to be clear I'm definitely not defending the condescension to you that was whipped out right out of the gate; not having any evidence seems to make some unreasonably defensive.

I actually have a lot of appreciation for your 'non-spiritual spiritual outlook' for lack of a better phrase, and can entirely agree with the consciousness tuning aspects of magick and how you've explained its overall practice.  It proposes no violations of natural laws, contains as much metaphorical and personal meaning and depth as religious beliefs, and has the huge advantage of not requiring anyone to ignore or hand-wave away a crater that exists where the evidence should be.  

[XenoFish]

A lot of these beliefs are like impure metal. They need to be boiled down to get what is pure. Not everyone likes it, but I spent a great deal of my life digging into it. It's not a pretty thing to see what you once believed to be something different altogether.

[XenoFish]

Casting Spell or is it just an Affirmation.

Affirmations are short statements that are meant to affirm something. A change in one's self or perhaps something external. They are statements used to reprogram the subconscious, repeated often enough they may or may not bring about the desired change in oneself. 

Spells are directed externally and are "facts". Depending on the emotional strength of the statement and how confident in it, it will generate a cognitive change equally. (confirmation bias).

The use of ritual in magic is to set the stage for self hypnosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hypnosis

Which is why trance states are so important. Allowing for easier autosuggestion. One thing to note about the use of affirmations is that they may reduce stress and worry. However they may also induce laziness. 

For example well take a claim of demonic harassment. 

If an individual claims a demon is bothering them or causing all their troubles. It is truly them causing it all. The "demons" is an external representation of their loss of control in life, or the feelings of. They focus on the bad and only see the bad. This also works in reverse, if they think that they are blessed by some angels. Then they might act more confidently. At it's most basic prayers are just affirmations with window dressing. 

A word of caution though. Affirmation, spells, prayers, and sigils (more on that in a minute) will only do so much. Intention + Action = Results always.

*sigils* 

Sigils are affirmations in graphic form. Where you take a written affirmation and turn it into a symbol. The more cryptic this symbol is the better and it will have lost all conscious meaning. While your subconscious know. 

Further reading.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/smart-relationships/201403/affirmations-the-why-what-how-and-what-if

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201305/do-self-affirmations-work-revisit

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/16/self-affirmations-boost-performance_n_7079350.html

[ChrLzs]

I'll tell you what I believe in...

We have 5 major senses and many others (up to about 21 depending on how you define a 'sense'), and most folks:

- do not consciously use them to anywhere near their fullest extent
- do not realise when their brains are in fact using them at much higher levels than they are conscious of
- do not have an appreciation for the immense processing power, memory and ability of the brain, especially when to comes to things like sensing danger or concern, of noticing tiny but 'important' details, of pattern matching, of noting coincidence (and ignoring/forgetting the non-coincident), of empathy, of body language and sensing 'strain' or emotion in another's voice or other habits
- do not realise when their brains are combining all those inputs and past experiences and learned wisdom to provide insights

Once you put all that together and then also realise that our memories are quite malleable and often flawed, as are our perceptions, you will get a far better picture of how all this works, and also how some folks not only fool themselves but also others who come along for the ride..

[back to earth]

10 hours ago, Sherry Gibson said:

I hated these words and belief system.

 

 

[back to earth]

7 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Whoops, zero poke was intended Xeno but I see how it can be read that way.  I didn't mean anything more by 'most people don't think like Xeno' than as a direct rebuttal to what I quoted from Sherry, "most people think like you"; on spirituality subjects, most people do not think like you and I (considering there are 4.8 billion Christians, Muslims, and Hindus in the world), most people seem to think there are gods/spirits.  Some believers in the supernatural, and in my experience especially those believing they have special powers, tend to pose themselves as courageous lone mavericks having to brave a withering deluge of unreasonable skepticism by the rest of the world, when in reality, depending on what we're talking about, their beliefs are not even in the minority.  But yea, my bad on the wording of my response to her, and to be clear I'm definitely not defending the condescension to you that was whipped out right out of the gate; not having any evidence seems to make some unreasonably defensive.

Ooooooo   yeah ! 

7 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I actually have a lot of appreciation for your 'non-spiritual spiritual outlook' for lack of a better phrase, and can entirely agree with the consciousness tuning aspects of magick and how you've explained its overall practice.  It proposes no violations of natural laws, contains as much metaphorical and personal meaning and depth as religious beliefs, and has the huge advantage of not requiring anyone to ignore or hand-wave away a crater that exists where the evidence should be.  

I haven't said much so far .....   I leave the  MPE up to Xeno .  BUT   one thing I would note about the above , it  also has similar ritual practices -  I call this and the things you mentioned  ( and some other stuff )  'magical   technology '   (in this respect one could substitute psychological technology) ;   the differences are to do with application  - in religion it is used to develop a member of that religion, in that way.

In magic ( or theurgy ) it is about developing the self as independent  YOU control the technology .

But its all 'magical / psychological '  technology .... even when the religions use it .

In magick .....  looking at the technology itself ..... the acts that lead to different  states are more significant than the teachings that lead from those acts .

Ie. ;

THEOREMS

I. The world progresses by virtue of the appearance of Christs (geniuses).

II. Christs (geniuses) are men with super-consciousness of the highest order.

III. Super-consciousnes of the highest order is obtainable by known methods.

Therefore, by employing the quintessence of known methods we cause the world to progress.

ESSENTIALS OF METHOD

I. Theology is immaterial; for both Buddha and St. Ignatius were Christs.

II. Morality is immaterial; for both Socrates and Mohammed were Christs.

III. Super-consciousness is a natural phenomenon; its conditions are therefore to be sought rather in the acts than the words of those who attain it.

The essential acts are retirement and concentration — as taught by Yoga and Ceremonial Magic

 

https://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/i/ii/eqi02016

[+Hammerclaw]

"It is your Faith that has made you whole."   Jesus Christ

[+Liquid Gardens]

14 hours ago, back to earth said:

I haven't said much so far .....   I leave the  MPE up to Xeno .  BUT   one thing I would note about the above , it  also has similar ritual practices -  I call this and the things you mentioned  ( and some other stuff )  'magical   technology '   (in this respect one could substitute psychological technology) ;   the differences are to do with application  - in religion it is used to develop a member of that religion, in that way.

In magic ( or theurgy ) it is about developing the self as independent  YOU control the technology .

I like the tie-in with the word 'technology' here, interesting way to think about it.  If you take Xeno's OP and strip out all the qualifiers that are along the lines of, 'it doesn't really matter that these beings/concepts aren't actually real', you have a religious text; if you add Xeno's qualifiers to the good parts of the Bible, then you have, well, something improved in my opinion.  

I've only personally encountered a couple extreme Christians, along the lines of 'there were dinosaurs on the ark'..., and in a way I feel bad debating those kind of beliefs just because I think their particular religion won't 'work' unless irrational things like this are believed. Their 'technology' requires that to be believed, reality be damned.  If their beliefs rely on that kind of stuff and seem to make them happy and good, I don't want to be the buzzkill and potentially make them realize something that's going to bum them out and destroy that technology (of course I'm also implicitly condescending to them in a way by not challenging them, it could be viewed that I'm treating them like a child or that they are too weak to handle the truth... good ol' analysis paralysis).  

But add in or instruct that as far as the major religions' teachings that, 'this is potentially beneficial to you regardless of whether these stories are literally true', and you've stripped out the vast majority of what I criticize about them.  The 'right and correct' religion is usually the one you already have in that scenario.  No appeals needed to one's individual conception of what a good god wants or that it is the one real true god unlike all the others, no necessary conflicts with science, no reason for people of different 'religious' beliefs to kill each other.... err, forget that last one, given the 'reasons' why we already kill each other, none of us are that naive.

[back to earth]

"It is your Faith that has made you whole."   Jesus Christ

 

No ... not at at all   , that does not apply to me . 

If I relied on faith to make me whole .......    

( I just scared myself thinking about how I might have turned out !  ) 

 

Here is another path for magick .....  to make one  'whole' .   To explore and develop  (using those 'magical technologies' ) the psyche ... in balance  ( as noted earlier ).

A strong ' 4 square foundation'.  Without a strong foundation , one cannot reach the heights. 

Another concept is one's boundary or  'circle' ; we have many ideas about what we can do (as do others, and they often  try encourage or restrict us )  but we are limited by our range of possibilities.  Thing is they might be greater than we realise.  For others, they may be fantasy and beyond us .  The ancient precept, in this regard was ;  '  Man -  know thyself ! ' 

We should have two views of the self so as not to go too far with our egos, but also, not to restrict the wonderful beings we can be :

" Remember that this earth is but an atom in the universe, and that thou thyself art but an atom thereon, and that even couldst thou become the God of this earth whereon thou crawlest and grovellest, that thou wouldest, even then, be but an atom, and one amongst many.

Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices. "

- there is only one of you ; unique and individual . 

 

There are many paths to make one whole  , for me, faith is the least of them. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by back to earth

[XenoFish]

Mind Mapping

Consider the concept of mind mapping and 'magical' technology. With the use of magical techniques you reinforce a suggestible state of mind, you create a point in your mental map. You could even imagine (literally) a long hallway. The first door is the Conscious the last door the Subconscious. Along this hallways are other doors to the left and right. One might be emotions, memories, habits, etc. By making a mental map of yourself you can then mentally go into those areas. Like trying to remember where you left your car keys, hit up the 'memory' room and just "ask". It's an interesting technique. I can't remember where exactly I read it at.(found it, it's in the second link*.)

One thing that the occult lead me to was an interest in mind hacking. 

http://www.wisebread.com/8-powerful-brain-hacks-you-can-do-in-under-2-minutes

http://www.cracked.com/article_20166_5-brain-hacks-that-give-you-mind-blowing-powers.html *

[back to earth]

19 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I like the tie-in with the word 'technology' here, interesting way to think about it.  If you take Xeno's OP and strip out all the qualifiers that are along the lines of, 'it doesn't really matter that these beings/concepts aren't actually real', you have a religious text; if you add Xeno's qualifiers to the good parts of the Bible, then you have, well, something improved in my opinion.  

I've only personally encountered a couple extreme Christians, along the lines of 'there were dinosaurs on the ark'..., and in a way I feel bad debating those kind of beliefs just because I think their particular religion won't 'work' unless irrational things like this are believed. Their 'technology' requires that to be believed, reality be damned.  If their beliefs rely on that kind of stuff and seem to make them happy and good, I don't want to be the buzzkill and potentially make them realize something that's going to bum them out and destroy that technology (of course I'm also implicitly condescending to them in a way by not challenging them, it could be viewed that I'm treating them like a child or that they are too weak to handle the truth... good ol' analysis paralysis).  

But add in or instruct that as far as the major religions' teachings that, 'this is potentially beneficial to you regardless of whether these stories are literally true', and you've stripped out the vast majority of what I criticize about them.  The 'right and correct' religion is usually the one you already have in that scenario.  No appeals needed to one's individual conception of what a good god wants or that it is the one real true god unlike all the others, no necessary conflicts with science, no reason for people of different 'religious' beliefs to kill each other.... err, forget that last one, given the 'reasons' why we already kill each other, none of us are that naive.

 

Crowley termed the 'Scientific Illuminist' approach ;  the method of science with the aim of religion. 

I am a bit sus on the 'aim of religion' though .  It;s too wide , broad and varied.  In essence, on one level I suppose it fits - when one gets to the stage  where one's will is the same as one's 'God's'  will ..... but that all depends on how one views  'God' . 

[back to earth]

7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Mind Mapping

Consider the concept of mind mapping and 'magical' technology. With the use of magical techniques you reinforce a suggestible state of mind, you create a point in your mental map. You could even imagine (literally) a long hallway. The first door is the Conscious the last door the Subconscious. Along this hallways are other doors to the left and right. One might be emotions, memories, habits, etc. By making a mental map of yourself you can then mentally go into those areas. Like trying to remember where you left your car keys, hit up the 'memory' room and just "ask". It's an interesting technique. I can't remember where exactly I read it at.(found it, it's in the second link*.)

One thing that the occult lead me to was an interest in mind hacking. 

http://www.wisebread.com/8-powerful-brain-hacks-you-can-do-in-under-2-minutes

http://www.cracked.com/article_20166_5-brain-hacks-that-give-you-mind-blowing-powers.html *

 

'Memory theatre '  ? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giulio_Camillo

 

 

[back to earth]

I spent some time trying to map the psyche via ToL 

It is usually depicted as  'the psychic anatomy'

 

 

But , for me this isnt really it ;  I wanted to model the actual psyche , not some type of relational 'anatomy' 

I came up with a better schema  that uses a variant tree  ( as for this ,' Mars'  should not be  'up there'   ....  if its lower 'the fall of man '   the Tree rearranges and seems to work; using the astrological model and the modern psychological terms and divisions ;  ego, Id superego personna etc . 

[XenoFish]

Even the 'chakra' system can be seen as a mind map of the self, with each level being a focus for self mastery. Rather than a literal thing. 

[back to earth]

Especially since how many  'chakras'  we have  and their different locations vary throughout traditions ;   Daoism  has 3 'chakras' .

[Wes4747]

On 4/11/2017 at 7:03 PM, XenoFish said:

Casting Spell or is it just an Affirmation.

Affirmations are short statements that are meant to affirm something. A change in one's self or perhaps something external. They are statements used to reprogram the subconscious, repeated often enough they may or may not bring about the desired change in oneself. 

Spells are directed externally and are "facts". Depending on the emotional strength of the statement and how confident in it, it will generate a cognitive change equally. (confirmation bias).

The use of ritual in magic is to set the stage for self hypnosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hypnosis

Which is why trance states are so important. Allowing for easier autosuggestion. One thing to note about the use of affirmations is that they may reduce stress and worry. However they may also induce laziness. 

For example well take a claim of demonic harassment. 

If an individual claims a demon is bothering them or causing all their troubles. It is truly them causing it all. The "demons" is an external representation of their loss of control in life, or the feelings of. They focus on the bad and only see the bad. This also works in reverse, if they think that they are blessed by some angels. Then they might act more confidently. At it's most basic prayers are just affirmations with window dressing. 

A word of caution though. Affirmation, spells, prayers, and sigils (more on that in a minute) will only do so much. Intention + Action = Results always.

*sigils* 

Sigils are affirmations in graphic form. Where you take a written affirmation and turn it into a symbol. The more cryptic this symbol is the better and it will have lost all conscious meaning. While your subconscious know. 

Further reading.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/smart-relationships/201403/affirmations-the-why-what-how-and-what-if

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201305/do-self-affirmations-work-revisit

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/16/self-affirmations-boost-performance_n_7079350.html

Love your equation, intent plus action equals results..

Shall we zoom in a bit for clarification?

On a psychological level, i know it works... My intent on a mental level coupled with any bizarre action seems to achieve the desired results..

Oddly enough, i have failed with the intention i might fail at the very same task i have succeeded with the intent i would succeed, using the same words and tools in both scenarios.

How do you think intent actually seems to manifest results independent of any traceable real world variance in action from a previous outcome?

Hope i my question and angle comes across as intended..

 

[XenoFish]

13 minutes ago, Wes4747 said:

Love your equation, intent plus action equals results..

Shall we zoom in a bit for clarification?

On a psychological level, i know it works... My intent on a mental level coupled with any bizarre action seems to achieve the desired results..

Oddly enough, i have failed with the intention i might fail at the very same task i have succeeded with the intent i would succeed, using the same words and tools in both scenarios.

How do you think intent actually seems to manifest results independent of any traceable real world variance in action from a previous outcome?

Hope i my question and angle comes across as intended..

 

Imagine for a moment that you want to affirm a simple think. Like beauty. You may feel unattractive and you want to affirm that you have positive qualities. While this is good on paper it's going to take something more tangible than just affirmaitons, which is intention + action. You can tell yourself that you're beautify 24/7 and convince yourself so thoroughly that it's true. But it's fragile. If you affirm this while doing such things as eating right, exercising, and personal grooming. You're making it real. The internal motivation manifest externally. 

Now if you're affirming something purely external (like most L.O.A. users) this is purely psychological. Dealing with confirmation bias and cognitive bias.

Imagine it this way. You conscious want something but you have no subconscious desire. Now imagine that you found a way to take a conscious desire and package it in a way that it becomes a subconscious drive. It's the difference between wanting and doing. It's a lot like making a sandwich, you intend to make it, give it some thought, and find yourself in the kitchen. Intention without action is inert. Action without intent is directionless. Hand in hand they are success.

Edited April 13, 2017 by XenoFish