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XenoFish

The Magical Placebo Effect

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Liquid Gardens
6 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

 I own two Rotties right now. When you know their psychology  and how they read body language, they are all exactly the same. Sure they have different personalities,  but they have no way of looking inside themselves and choosing a different option then what they are programmed for.

An Elephant cant choose to go not mourn a lost member. Ect ect

How on earth could you possibly know this though?  If an elephant or dog (or human) does make non-programmed choices, how could you tell?  Are you asserting that all elephants will mourn a lost member, there are no exceptions?  If there are exceptions, how are you differentiating between that nonconformist elephant making a choice not to mourn and that specific elephant being 'programmed' not to mourn?  

I guess I have yet to see any evidence that humans are not programmed also and are really that different in this regard.  If I present you and a dog with two choices, a plate of bacon or a plate of steak, and you can only have one, what is going on in your brain that somehow is not 'programmed'? Sure, you can remember all of your own experiences with bacon and steak, their relative impacts on your health and waistline, etc, which are all things that would not be available to a dog's decision making process.  But a dog can smell things concerning those foods that we have no comprehension of and are inputs missing from our decision making process. What's the diff, what's allowing us to break our programming?

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eight bits

preacherman

I dunno, I think you may be underestimating dogs.

As to animal mourning, I'll speak for this animal, me. I don't choose to mourn, if a loved one is lost, then it hurts. No choice. You might as well say that I choose to feel pain if I touch the wrong part of the stove. No. No choice.

You could say "hard wired," if that's the kind of expression that appeals to you.

But as to other animals, it's very tricky to figure out another animal's interior mental states. We sometimes get our own species' thoughts and feelings wrong. Hell, we even get our very own ones wrong. I'd tread lightly here.

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preacherman76
18 hours ago, eight bits said:

preacherman

I dunno, I think you may be underestimating dogs.

As to animal mourning, I'll speak for this animal, me. I don't choose to mourn, if a loved one is lost, then it hurts. No choice. You might as well say that I choose to feel pain if I touch the wrong part of the stove. No. No choice.

You could say "hard wired," if that's the kind of expression that appeals to you.

But as to other animals, it's very tricky to figure out another animal's interior mental states. We sometimes get our own species' thoughts and feelings wrong. Hell, we even get our very own ones wrong. I'd tread lightly here.

There are a couple responses to my posts on this subject. Instead of responding to all them, I'll just respond here.

To simplify what im saying so maybe folks can better understand what im saying, all im saying is humans are the only creature with the ability to stop, think, and decide to change. We are the only creatures with the ability to look inward. That's all I was trying to say.  

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khol
56 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

There are a couple responses to my posts on this subject. Instead of responding to all them, I'll just respond here.

To simplify what im saying so maybe folks can better understand what im saying, all im saying is humans are the only creature with the ability to stop, think, and decide to change. We are the only creatures with the ability to look inward. That's all I was trying to say.  

http://phys.org/news/2015-06-self-awareness-unique-mankind.html

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khol

And all I'm saying is humans are not as special and unique as you say. Detaching ourselves from the rest, putting other species in an inferior box, claiming the planet as our own has proved to be not only naive but destructive. Look no further then the displacement of species burning our rain forests for agriculture. Selfish and self serving. Polluting our enviorment...yeah humans are special allright. We have unique abilities sure, but so does a cuttlefish. 

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DingoLingo

Good post Xeno.. and very true..

Lets take reiki .. apparently I have healing hands with reiki.. but because I know the right words to say and I am generally warm blooded (Ie hands always warm) those who believe reiki is real find my touch healing..

its not.. but the placebo effect kicks in.. if anything all I am doing is making their mind not feel the pain anymore.. its still there.. but that ignore switch has been tripped in their mind..

as for the astral travel.. I said on another thread I will set up a 'test' when I get home (3 days to go) and start a new thread.

I am going to put something in a draw on my desk.. will even give photo's of my desk.. the room.. and a google map image of where I am to give them a hand..

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XenoFish

I think people don't realize how powerful our minds are. They want to attribute metaphysical success to some external force. What always bothered me was the materialistic approach some system of magick take. Most of the time I see where someone's create a sigil to get laid.:rolleyes:

To me this is a waste. I've used them to motivate myself for personal improvement. With a lot of systems they exercise the mind and awareness to wonderful degrees. Concentration and visualization exercise. When it comes to visualization it's almost as effective as the real thing. I mentioned in another thread that by visualizing yourself 'drawing energy from the earth' will trigger a mild adrenaline rush to perk you up. But such things are down played or completely overlooked. Like having a very stressful day and visualizing the stress as an 'energy' leaving your hands as you hold onto a worry doll.

This simple act is a great stress reducer. The thing is to not get too caught up in the hocus pocus of it all. 

I could think of even more things that work like an empowered affirmation, such as lighting a candle, writing down a goal or wish, then burning the strip of paper in the flame. This doesn't do anything to the external reality beside create smoke. But to you and how much you believe it can very well change how you see the world and act in it. 

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DebDandelion
8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think people don't realize how powerful our minds are. They want to attribute metaphysical success to some external force. What always bothered me was the materialistic approach some system of magick take. Most of the time I see where someone's create a sigil to get laid.:rolleyes:

To me this is a waste. I've used them to motivate myself for personal improvement. With a lot of systems they exercise the mind and awareness to wonderful degrees. Concentration and visualization exercise. When it comes to visualization it's almost as effective as the real thing. I mentioned in another thread that by visualizing yourself 'drawing energy from the earth' will trigger a mild adrenaline rush to perk you up. But such things are down played or completely overlooked. Like having a very stressful day and visualizing the stress as an 'energy' leaving your hands as you hold onto a worry doll.

This simple act is a great stress reducer. The thing is to not get too caught up in the hocus pocus of it all. 

I could think of even more things that work like an empowered affirmation, such as lighting a candle, writing down a goal or wish, then burning the strip of paper in the flame. This doesn't do anything to the external reality beside create smoke. But to you and how much you believe it can very well change how you see the world and act in it. 

Agreeing on the point that we underestimate our.minds...

 

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

Agreeing on the point that we underestimate our.minds...

 

How many dots can you connect between thinking about something happening and it happening. A coincidence. We make links between things. I can thinking about seeing a black cat, then maybe I'm driving down the road and see one. Did I make the cat appear or did I fine tune my mind into an unconscious awareness so that I will notice the cat?

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DebDandelion
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

How many dots can you connect between thinking about something happening and it happening. A coincidence. We make links between things. I can thinking about seeing a black cat, then maybe I'm driving down the road and see one. Did I make the cat appear or did I fine tune my mind into an unconscious awareness so that I will notice the cat?

Are u asking rhetorical or should I venture an answer?

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XenoFish

You can venture an answer. Last I checked this was a discussion forum.:lol:

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Davros of Skaro

This thread keeps getting better.

Or is it a placebo of my expectations? 

Naw...It's a thought provoking thread.

 

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DebDandelion
23 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You can venture an answer. Last I checked this was a discussion forum.:lol:

Brain being broken and all, I might just put.my.foot in it.

For.me there is.no such thing as coincidence,  all and everything is connected.  that being said me thinking about a.black cat and there it is might.be subconscious.  I mean that I have seen that cat there before, and I wonder about it, I drive by and there.it.is. I wouldn't say it's there because I have thought of it, it is there cause.its part of its route. I tend to wander over its path.

I do believe that we tend NOT to see things that we declare as mundane. so there I agree,  if I am pregnant I all of a sudden notice how.many pregnant women there are. so I tuned me mind without knowing it.

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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

if I am pregnant I all of a sudden notice how.many pregnant women there are. so I tuned me mind without knowing it.

Exactly. Same with the cat. If you're thinking about the cat you'll notice the cat. If you're not then it will be a passive awareness.

I think you only got a toe in instead of the whole foot.:lol:

As for a coincidence. I see it the same way. You might have been thinking about getting a cheeseburger for dinner as you drive home. Then you notice the Fatty McBurger that you've drove past everyday. It's always been there, it's just that this time you were aware of it. A better example (I think) is thinking about a song then turning on the radio and hearing it. It would've played regardless of what you were thinking about at the time. 

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XenoFish
18 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

Or is it a placebo of my expectations? 

It's that witchcraft of words I'm working Davros. Totally is.;)

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Davros of Skaro
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It's that witchcraft of words I'm working Davros. Totally is.;)

You fired a Sigil before writting everything, and this thread is your imagination.

You chose the symbol of the Tardis to wake up from your dream when you see it.

tardis_animated_gif_by_natnie-d632gom.gi

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eight bits

preacherman

Quote

To simplify what im saying so maybe folks can better understand what im saying, all im saying is humans are the only creature with the ability to stop, think, and decide to change. We are the only creatures with the ability to look inward. That's all I was trying to say.

OK, maybe an example, then? I see other animals, wild and domesticated, change their behavior all the time, in large ways and small. (Over the years, I've trained animals, been a "training breaker" for other trainers... that is, influence the animal not to do what they've been trained to do, and been trained myself by one or two animals, too :) ).Whence comes your confidence that behavioral change wasn't preceded by stop and think? That the very ability to do that is missing?

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XenoFish
55 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

You chose the symbol of the Tardis to wake up from your dream when you see it.

It's my totem. This tread is a thread within a thread. 

Threadception.:lol:

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Mr Walker
On 26/11/2016 at 6:42 AM, preacherman76 said:

The power of the mind is an amazing thing. Ive been learning a lot lately about using the mind to dictate your reality. To continually think about what you want from life, almost as though it already is. Practically beating those thoughts into your head daily till they are accepted by the subconscious mind. Learning that you are part of God, or as some like to call him, the source. You have the power to create your reality, but you have to break free from your programing. Awesome stuff.

Xen, you asked a question in another thread the other day. You asked whats so special about humans, that we are really just another animal. Not so. What separates us from basically any other being on this planet is our ability to look inward. Other creatures rely completely on instinct. What ever their natural reaction to something is, is the only way they can react. People on the other hand have the ability to chose several paths to any given situation. And have the ability to create a desired outcome. We can choose to no longer be a victim of circumstance, by understanding that circumstance has little to nothing to do with it. Understanding that what you choose to believe is your reality. The laws of attraction do not have a moral code. Its simply obedient. Any person anywhere can change their situation, simply by changing the way they choose to perceive

Oh, if only more people would realise this simple and powerful truth.

In general, as xeno points out in his well written OP,  belief/ faith has two powerful effects

First it actually alters our psychological and thus physical being. It can even reduce pain and cause wounds to heal faster This occurs because,in  humans nothing is simple; pain, healing etc are not just physical but mental processes.  We can cause/reduce pain and affect our rate of healing by how we perceive things.  This is why placebos are so effective in humans

Secondly as xeno also correctly points out, faith and belief are so deeply held in our conscious that they motivate humans more strongly than  facts /knowledge or other aspects of the mind  This motivation then ALSO has a effect on our psychological and physical well being.

State of mind is ALL for a human being, rather than the actual physical environment we find ourselves in, or even the physical condition of our body.

Because we construct our feelings and perception of self, and can learn to do this consciously,  we can basically choose any state of mind we desire, and then construct it, and fix it, in our mind as reality.  It takes a little skill and understanding, ie techniques of the mind and how to use them ,   and a bit more than a little practice and discipline, but even young children can be taught this skill/abilty.

To take command of their mind,  and learn to feel and respond to best effect, no matter what their circumstances , in order to create the best outcomes for themselves.  

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Mr Walker
On 27/11/2016 at 11:51 PM, khol said:

And all I'm saying is humans are not as special and unique as you say. Detaching ourselves from the rest, putting other species in an inferior box, claiming the planet as our own has proved to be not only naive but destructive. Look no further then the displacement of species burning our rain forests for agriculture. Selfish and self serving. Polluting our enviorment...yeah humans are special allright. We have unique abilities sure, but so does a cuttlefish. 

No, humans are unique, although a few individual animals, and a couple of species, are close behind us on the evolutionary path (without help from humans  they will reach our level in perhaps 100000 years but i hope we can help them evolve a bit faster because it would be nice/helpful to have the perspective of other self aware species )  There aren't any other  animals with greater than a four year old human's capacity of mind, and most have far less  

The problem is that human level self aware consciousness requires language capable of abstract thought, symbolic attachments etc., as well as many other skills which few non humans possess. Without human- like " language of the mind" other species CANNOT have many of the qualities which humans have .  

 

HOWEVER,  this uniqueness gives us a unique responsibility and duty, NOT a right to do as we please   We can change the planet and we KNOW we can  We can make it a hell hole or a paradise  There is no other species which has this duty or responsibility and, in itself, this defines the difference between humans and all other animals  

Only when a whale carries a placard saying, "save the humans", can we know that whales have human like qualities, and that we are not unique on earth. When another primate holds one of its species accountable for rape, murder, or infanticide, then we can know that they have reached human  level self awareness, and we are no longer unique. When another animal writes music, creates art, or is creative in a way which is not simply a evolved form of communication, and  which uses symbolic/abstract representations to transfer meaning,  THEN  we will no longer be unique  

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XenoFish

I'm going to correct you on something Walker. Facts are provable beliefs. 

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Mr Walker
20 hours ago, eight bits said:

preacherman

OK, maybe an example, then? I see other animals, wild and domesticated, change their behavior all the time, in large ways and small. (Over the years, I've trained animals, been a "training breaker" for other trainers... that is, influence the animal not to do what they've been trained to do, and been trained myself by one or two animals, too :) ).Whence comes your confidence that behavioral change wasn't preceded by stop and think? That the very ability to do that is missing?

Training animals does not demonstrate any abilty to think like a human does.  Human thinking is language based, and without language and the awareness which goes with it an animal cant think like a human does. Our dogs cannot love us as we love them. They dont have have the abilty to construct an abstract ide like love  However we think the y love us because we impute our form of love on the responses they give us, which are  actually evolved and conditioned responses to environment  not a demonstration of love or affection. Given that they can't even understand terms like love or affection , it is impossible for them to construct, hold, and feel these  unique human emotions.  We train and condition non human  animals, but we teach humans   until a human child will stop doing something because it has an intellectual understanding that what it is doing is wrong or unacceptable. and probably even why This always gives humans much greater choices than other animals because they can see into the future and see consequences and how others will view their behaviours then act accordingly based on personal priorities, values, ethics or beliefs.  Not even the smartest non human animal acts on that basis. .  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm going to correct you on something Walker. Facts are provable beliefs. 

No.  A fact is knowledge and can be proven to be right or wrong.  A belief cannot be proven right or wrong without it then converting to knowledge,  where it is no longer belief.  

if you truly think as you do, then no wonder we have trouble communicating .

I am not sure why you inserted this post where you did, or what it applied to.

Some philosophers have long argued that knowldge is "demonstrably/justifiable, true belief"  But actually justifiable/demonstrably true belief  is only knowledge to a person once it is no longer  just a belief  ( The fact that something you believe  happens to be right and you believe it, does not make it knowledge. To have knowledge you MUST have personal evidences of its truth or validity. Otherwise, justifiable or not, true or not; for you it is belief, even if it is knowledge to another, because they DO have  personal evidences or experience of its truth/validity)

Suppose you grow up knowing nothing about snow, and someone tells you it melts and becomes water  when warmed up.  You believe this  is true. It IS a justifiable true belief,  BUT  for you it is not knowledge,  but belief, because, as yet , you have no evidences  for its truth and have taken its validity on faith.  Once you observe the fact yourself, THEN you have knowledge   

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Mr Walker
49 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm going to correct you on something Walker. Facts are provable beliefs. 

Maybe this is a more appropriate response.

A child will respond more powerfully to the idea of a loving parent than to the existence of a real one.  Make a child believe that an absent/non existent  parent expects a  certain behaviour, and once they believe, they will follow that belief more strongly than a child who actually has parents present telling them how to behave, and trying to enforce the  behaviour.

They will behave from their own heart and head, and will discipline themselves according to their belief .  .Internalised belief motivates and drives, much more strongly than reality, facts or knowledge  

An adult will respond more powerfully to the belief in a powerful god, than the presence of a real one.

a person who believes in the law will follow it more carefully than one who understands it but does not have faith in it . 

  The greatest discipline and motivation comes from within, not from without. 

I think i was responding particularly to this comment of yours

 

 Fire a sigil for weight loss and find yourself eating better or less while also working out. I know someone on this forum who did just that. Say a prayer to fix your life, then you find your life getting better, because you've changed. That's the point. If you change yourself the world changes around you. Not in the literal sense. 

Ie you achieve a positive real physical change via BELIEF This gives motivation to alter eating habits which in turn causes you to lose weight gaining the effect you "prayed" for.

Without the belief you would not have made or sustained  the effort. You would not have lost the weight.  Thus the belief actually caused the weight loss. In my experience you DO actually change yourself, and the world around you, via belief,  because belief motivates actions which cause change, and the changes would not  occur without the original pre existing belief. . It is the BELIEF which makes the difference in the two future outcomes.  The world WILL respond differently to the you which is fitter and weighs less (and is probably, thus, both more capable and more confident in their life) Thus you also change the world  

Edited by Mr Walker
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