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XenoFish

The Magical Placebo Effect

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brlesq1

Interesting thread. I believe the mind is truly a powerful thing, and not to be taken for granted and or used lightly. 

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XenoFish

Both success and failure are both a thought away. Choices are what makes up our lives. Either conscious or unconscious decisions. The power of thought is apparent when we think about our favorite food. We give it strength, we might get a phantom smell, taste, our mouth may water at the thought of it. Given enough attention we may very well find ourselves going out to get it. Maybe it was a candy bar or a piece of pie. Does the thought of a nice warm cup of hot chocolate make you feel all fuzzy inside? 

It is through our beliefs that we see the world, once a belief is made/shown to be true it becomes a fact and much easier to believe in. I believe in gravity because I see the effects of it. I know my belief to be true. What you may believe about someone is based on knowledge and experience or rumor. But unless those assumptions are back by facts it's an unproven belief. We have a lot of those beliefs in our lives. You've really got to dig deep inside to find them, once you do you see how they influence how you think, feel, and act. 

If you want to test the power of belief, just spend a few minutes each morning thinking about your day. All the stuff you have to do/want to do. Approach this with a bit of realistic optimism. Think to yourself that "I will get this done" or something along those lines. Then keep notes on how much you achieve each day. This is just a bit of mental magick. A realistic version of the 'law of attraction'. The most important thing however is to not just think about what you want to achieve or how you want to feel, but to act that way. 

The only way to prove any of this is through person experiment. 

 

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XenoFish

Derren Brown using the Placebo effect. Showing how suggestion and belief can affect us. Plus it's entertaining.

 

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XenoFish

The Divine Placebo, God. More Derren Brown entertainment.

 

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eight bits

Mr W

Quote

Training animals does not demonstrate any abilty to think like a human does.

Didn't say it did. The issue addressed was the other poster's confidence that non-human species do not and cannot stop and think before exhibiting behavioral change. That's a fairly narrow inquiry compared with whether species A "thinks like" species B (any A; any B).

I thought it prudent to establish that I had seen animal behavioral change personally. It seemed unnecessary to add, given the context, that witnessing behavioral change had not inspired in me the same confidence about the absence of stop-and-think as it apparently has in the other poster.

Sorry if that was unclear.

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khol
11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No, humans are unique, although a few individual animals, and a couple of species, are close behind us on the evolutionary path (without help from humans  they will reach our level in perhaps 100000 years but i hope we can help them evolve a bit faster because it would be nice/helpful to have the perspective of other self aware species )  There aren't any other  animals with greater than a four year old human's capacity of mind, and most have far less  

The problem is that human level self aware consciousness requires language capable of abstract thought, symbolic attachments etc., as well as many other skills which few non humans possess. Without human- like " language of the mind" other species CANNOT have many of the qualities which humans have .  

 

HOWEVER,  this uniqueness gives us a unique responsibility and duty, NOT a right to do as we please   We can change the planet and we KNOW we can  We can make it a hell hole or a paradise  There is no other species which has this duty or responsibility and, in itself, this defines the difference between humans and all other animals  

Only when a whale carries a placard saying, "save the humans", can we know that whales have human like qualities, and that we are not unique on earth. When another primate holds one of its species accountable for rape, murder, or infanticide, then we can know that they have reached human  level self awareness, and we are no longer unique. When another animal writes music, creates art, or is creative in a way which is not simply a evolved form of communication, and  which uses symbolic/abstract representations to transfer meaning,  THEN  we will no longer be unique  

of course Im not going to walk down to my little pond and see a frog playing the banjo and singing yankee doodle

but you also won't see a human doing any of these  http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_688_28-real-animal-abilities-you-wont-believe/

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kellyoakes/incredible-animals-with-real-superpowers?utm_term=.xfME2P4Mb#.xb1XxBR2g

this was the angle I was coming from

and Xenofish great opening post, I enjoyed reading it..my apologies for getting off topic somewhat!  :rolleyes:

 

 

 

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eight bits

Khol

Quote

of course Im not going to walk down to my little pond and see a frog playing the banjo and singing yankee doodle

Hasn't Mr W already done that? It's hard to keep track.

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Davros of Skaro

A Fruit Fly has nearly the same basic neurochemical motivators as us. They do not have a thinking Frontal Cortex as us, so a Placebo Effect belief cannot be implanted in them. They can have a chemical Placebo though.

"Being love-struck also releases high levels of dopamine, a chemical that “gets the reward system going,” said Olds. Dopamine activates the reward circuit, helping to make love a pleasurable experience similar to the euphoria associated with use of cocaine or alcohol. Scientific evidence for this similarity can be found in many studies, including one conducted at the University of California, San Francisco, and published in 2012 in Science. That study reported that male fruit flies that were sexually rejected drank four times as much alcohol as fruit flies that mated with female fruit flies. “Same reward center,” said Schwartz, “different way to get there.” "

http://neuro.hms.harvard.edu/harvard-mahoney-neuroscience-institute/brain-newsletter/and-brain-series/love-and-brain

I see this Placebo switcharoo all over the place. 

 

journeys-end-davros1.jpg

Edited by davros of skaro
Forgot link due to HDG

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Habitat
24 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

That study reported that male fruit flies that were sexually rejected drank four times as much alcohol as fruit flies that mated with female fruit flies. “Same reward center,” said Schwartz, “different way to get there.” "

 

The implication being that this "fact" is transferable to human behavior ? Reductionist madness.

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Davros of Skaro
8 hours ago, Habitat said:

The implication being that this "fact" is transferable to human behavior ? Reductionist madness.

I'm using science. You use coincidence as confirmation. You can't get more slow thinking than that.

The placebo of a higher power is rooted in the Dopamine Reward System. Just abstain from alcohol for a week, and take a double shot of Whiskey. The same high can be achieved through thought. We are all motivated for this reward just as the Fruit Fly.

Deny this, and you deny the transformative powers of the placebo Holy Dopamine Ghost.

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XenoFish
8 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

powers of the placebo Holy Dopamine Ghost.

The angels came to me saying that the Divine Placebo shall send it's Dopamine Spirit unto man, So that Saint Serotonin be upon us. Forever and always, amen.

 85be26b4577b0ed1cb27b79e9250ceb7.jpg

Edited by XenoFish
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Galactic Goatman

This reminds me of a quote:

"Religion makes people feel good!"

"So does heroine, whats your point?"

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Mr Walker
On 29/11/2016 at 1:03 PM, eight bits said:

Mr W

Didn't say it did. The issue addressed was the other poster's confidence that non-human species do not and cannot stop and think before exhibiting behavioral change. That's a fairly narrow inquiry compared with whether species A "thinks like" species B (any A; any B).

I thought it prudent to establish that I had seen animal behavioral change personally. It seemed unnecessary to add, given the context, that witnessing behavioral change had not inspired in me the same confidence about the absence of stop-and-think as it apparently has in the other poster.

Sorry if that was unclear.

Just clarifying what was meant by think. Humans think in linguistic, symbolic, and abstract forms, using tools which other animals do not posses. To equate human with non human thinking can lead a person into many serious errors  Yes, to a degree all animals "think" or we could not train them,  but not in any way as a human being thinks . That is impossible without a language- equivalent abilty, to process and order, information data and thoughts. 

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Mr Walker
On 29/11/2016 at 1:07 PM, khol said:

of course Im not going to walk down to my little pond and see a frog playing the banjo and singing yankee doodle

but you also won't see a human doing any of these  http://www.cracked.com/photoplasty_688_28-real-animal-abilities-you-wont-believe/

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kellyoakes/incredible-animals-with-real-superpowers?utm_term=.xfME2P4Mb#.xb1XxBR2g

this was the angle I was coming from

and Xenofish great opening post, I enjoyed reading it..my apologies for getting off topic somewhat!  :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Animals behaviour is genetically programmed, with biological drivers allowing them little, if any choice, in how to behave  

They evolve wonderful ,complex, very powerful, but very specific abilities, which maximise their survival within niches of the environment

On the other hand humans are generalists and can live anywhere any other animal can live, even if that requires the abilty to use technology.

Even without modern technology our generalist abilities allow us to alter our environment to survive,meaning we do not need specialist adaptations for survival eg we use fire, or make a coat from animal skin, or create a vessel to carry water with us.  Without sharp teeth or claws, and only a flint spear or knife, we can bring down most other animals on earth.   

Creativity and complex  language are the two indicators of human like intelligence 

When you see another animal displaying true creativity or complex language skills to communicate abstract and symbolic ideas, you will see an animal who has reached the evolutionary standard humans reached about 100000 years ago (and possibly more)  Examples might be fertility figurines, cave paintings, glyphs or rock carvings, totemic offerings   ceremonial burials  etc Certainly creative music to entertain, or  for spiritual purposes, would fit. .

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eight bits

Mr W

Quote

Just clarifying what was meant by think.

OK, but the subject of my comment was another poster's use of the everyday colloquial phrase "to stop and think." It was clear that he was not laboring the obvious, that the human use of human speech is specific to humans.

You and I differ about the depth, richness and effectiveness of animal cognition and, evidently, about the reciprocal character of "training." I can accept those differences, and  this isn't the ideal thread topic in which to pursue them.

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Habitat
On 12/2/2016 at 10:36 PM, davros of skaro said:

I'm using science. You use coincidence as confirmation. You can't get more slow thinking than that.

The placebo of a higher power is rooted in the Dopamine Reward System. Just abstain from alcohol for a week, and take a double shot of Whiskey. The same high can be achieved through thought. We are all motivated for this reward just as the Fruit Fly.

Deny this, and you deny the transformative powers of the placebo Holy Dopamine Ghost.

Maybe you should adopt "slow thinking", you jump to conclusions, and very likely erroneously, imo.

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khol
5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Animals behaviour is genetically programmed, with biological drivers allowing them little, if any choice, in how to behave  

They evolve wonderful ,complex, very powerful, but very specific abilities, which maximise their survival within niches of the environment

On the other hand humans are generalists and can live anywhere any other animal can live, even if that requires the abilty to use technology.

Even without modern technology our generalist abilities allow us to alter our environment to survive,meaning we do not need specialist adaptations for survival eg we use fire, or make a coat from animal skin, or create a vessel to carry water with us.  Without sharp teeth or claws, and only a flint spear or knife, we can bring down most other animals on earth.   

Creativity and complex  language are the two indicators of human like intelligence 

When you see another animal displaying true creativity or complex language skills to communicate abstract and symbolic ideas, you will see an animal who has reached the evolutionary standard humans reached about 100000 years ago (and possibly more)  Examples might be fertility figurines, cave paintings, glyphs or rock carvings, totemic offerings   ceremonial burials  etc Certainly creative music to entertain, or  for spiritual purposes, would fit. .

Originally this was in regards to a comment about animals being purely instinctual creatures. In no way did I infer they had matched or superior cognitive abilities 

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Davros of Skaro
6 hours ago, Habitat said:

Maybe you should adopt "slow thinking", you jump to conclusions, and very likely erroneously, imo.

I'm not the one that makes dietary decisions over litter on the ground thinking it's a paranormal derived sign.

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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, khol said:

Originally this was in regards to a comment about animals being purely instinctual creatures. In no way did I infer they had matched or superior cognitive abilities 

Behaviour is driven by a linear progression of drivers,from something like photo sensitivity in plants, and chemical recognition in insects, through to some capacity to "think' in  animals.Some animal species and some specific animals get quite close to human cognition,  but none show any more abilty than a very young child (under the age of 4) Basically because they don't have the quality of mind ( a set of quite specific skills, in part related to language)  to be able to process and evaluate data in complex patterns, they cannot break from their evolved genetic drivers (although the y can be trained in quite sophisticated,post Pavlovian ways)

I am a 95% vegetarian and a strong supporter of several animal welfare groups including  Ifaw and wwf But for me humans make a critical error when they consider humans to be ONLY another animal, or that other animals think like humans, and thus can/should be treated like humans. It is not best for the animals, nor for the humans, when humans think of animals as human like beings.  We have a responsibility to animals and the environment, which no other animal has for us, or to the environment,  for example. .  

 

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back to earth
On 12/6/2016 at 10:54 PM, khol said:

Originally this was in regards to a comment about animals being purely instinctual creatures. In no way did I infer they had matched or superior cognitive abilities 

Once Walker gets hold of  your post ... it can be turned into anything !      Then the following argument  ... I mean   'discussion' - have fun ! 

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back to earth

95 % vegetarian   :D       

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XenoFish
17 hours ago, back to earth said:

Once Walker gets hold of  your post ... it can be turned into anything !      Then the following argument  ... I mean   'discussion' - have fun ! 

Once Walker showed up I gave up on my own thread.:(

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Davros of Skaro
On 12/5/2016 at 8:36 PM, AustinHinton said:

This reminds me of a quote:

"Religion makes people feel good!"

"So does heroine, whats your point?"

easy-button-1.jpg

94cd33c91ac46570f18e54ba0b3a5969.jpg

 

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Habitat
On 12/7/2016 at 0:12 AM, davros of skaro said:

I'm not the one that makes dietary decisions over litter on the ground thinking it's a paranormal derived sign.

Taken in isolation, no, but in total, irresistible. 

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khol
On 09/12/2016 at 6:19 AM, XenoFish said:

Once Walker showed up I gave up on my own thread.:(

What an incredible mechanism.Your post reminds me of the power of our minds and the influence it can have.I think it was davros who said earlier "thought provoking"...thankyou and dont give up!  (:

 

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