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XenoFish

The Magical Placebo Effect

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GlitterRose
On 12/11/2016 at 5:19 AM, XenoFish said:

The imaginary friend aspect

I have remarked quite a few times about seeing religion and spirituality as being a form of self-therapy. To put this as best I can, it's a stress reliever. To project your stress, anxiety and worry onto an 'external' entity allows you to release mental tension. Not only does this release stress but it put the mind in motion, looking for a solution without excess worry. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201311/adults-have-imaginary-friends-too

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/culture-mind-and-brain/201604/daring-hear-voices

Consider that from a religious/spiritual perspective it's imaginary friends with benefits. However obsession is always a problem. When your beliefs begin to take over you. This is also why I say temper your beliefs with reason and logic. Keep yourself grounded. 

I can and have chatted up with many gods and goddess's about my life's problems. Then as if something magical I find myself with a subtle flood of ideas that present a solution to the problem at hand. How? Well, I've basically asked myself how to solve a problem. I gave my subconscious a task to perform and it dug through my knowledge till something/s of benefit could be presented. My imaginary friend acted as a more direct link to my subconscious. A witch's familiar is also a product of their imagination. Which works the same way.

The problem is when you become obsessed with the idea of any god. This is apparent when it comes to religious guilt and the fear that god will punish you for anything you do. Another problem is when you think that a spirit/god/demon etc. will make something external happen. Such thinking leads to confirmation bias and magical thinking.

I saw a demon in the mirror

Pareidolia, it's how we see animals in cloud formations and faces in trees. It's our brain making something familiar.  One form of evocation is the use of a mirror. Typically in a dark room, with a pair of lit candles beside it. So as to cast light on your face. The magician focuses deeply on his/her face till they start seeing images. These images are a product of pareidolia and front loading. They expect to see a spirit, angel, or demon. So their brains will make the image in the mirror they see appear as so. 

Not only does this work with a mirror it can also work with smoke. Seeing a demonic face in smoke because you on some unconscious level want to see one.

 

 

That black mirror scrying stuff just never worked for me. And I really wanted it to. I couldn't even get pareidolia to work. The mirror is a pretty cool set around, though. 

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eight bits

Chaos

Quote

 

That black mirror scrying stuff just never worked for me. And I really wanted it to. I couldn't even get pareidolia to work. The mirror is a pretty cool set around, though. 

 

The modern way is very reliable and effective: low level ambient illumination while looking at your face in an ordinary (usually big and fixed on a wall or free-standing) mirror. The searchable name is Giovanni Caputo. He and his group have done a lot of work on this in the past decade.

I think the difference between Caputo's and classical scrying may be that with a small-ish fixed target, the impulse to look somewhere else kicks in. If the mirror fills the visual field, there is nowhere else to look. Weirdness seems to be because of "processor fatigue,' so if you look elsewhere, then the processor recovers and never goes weird.

As to pareidolia, you really don't see this :) as a face? Smiling, no less? Typical pareidolia reports are about spontaneous effects, not making something work (although some people report "going back and forth," seeing the circle, two dots and little curvy thing as they are, when they want to, and what people see is open to suggestion - but then isn't that always true?).

Happy viewing.

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Wes4747

A good friend of mine used to use that same analogy, its like making a sandwich. 

 

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Mr Walker
On 12/04/2017 at 4:26 AM, XenoFish said:

Mental illness doesn't mean insanity. It just means some of your mental wiring is off. There are various levels. Most people will hallucinate from time to time. This often depends on their state of mind, such as fatigue. 

Or maybe those who cannot see such things are missing something in their neurological make up  An important synapse or neuron or two missing maybe?  In other words maybe those who CANNOT perceive this side of reality are the ones who have a neurological illness? :) 

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Mr Walker
On 12/04/2017 at 4:35 AM, XenoFish said:

Your first day and already you're making enemies. This'll be fun.:gun:

Why would her life, and her accounts of it, make her an enemy of anyone.? and why on earth would anyone see such a process, (of making enemies)  if it did occur, as fun? 

Here is another person who (correctly or erroneously)  has her own evidences for believing her experiences to be real,

And here we go again totally denying her that right by saying it is simply impossible  That is a belief  by you (and a legitimately held belief) It is NOT a fact.  

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Mr Walker
On 12/04/2017 at 5:14 AM, XenoFish said:

All that through the power of suggestion.

YOu mean her power of suggestion would cause him to hear voices? 

Come and hang out with me for awhile. You may not feel or see but, I'm sure that you would hear spirits when they come around. Blessings to you!

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
On 12/04/2017 at 5:44 AM, XenoFish said:

Yeah I noticed a mild poke at me there LG. Especially in a section of the forum were skepticism vs spirituality, and in my own thread. I could understand it in a different section but in this one. What are you implying?

On a different note.

Those that "see and hear spirits" are victim to a self-reinforcing feedback loop because of cognitive/confirmation bias. They want to believe so adamantly that what they wish is true that anything that says, "Yes it's paranormal." is accepted as truth. 

 

OR they  are hearing the voice of an independently existing entity with its own purpose and needs. 

Your assumption here is that these voices etc are constructed inside one's mind, and thus only have access to knowledge etc from within your mind. It also assumes that everyone who sees and hears such things has an either conscious or subconscious need to/

 One should never accept anything without evidences, including the concpet that the paranormal/supernatural only exists within the human mind. .

 How does your mind direct you to avoid dangers in the near or distant future, tell you how to find lost objects, help you when you are lost, let you read the minds of other people etc  .?  

How does your mind push you out of the way of a speeding car/bus/truck,  with enough force to leave a bruise on your chest?  How can a voice from your mind, be heard on a radio or a cb, and heard by other people? How can others see something which only exists in your mind. 

The answer is  that our mind, alone, probably does NOT have these capacities, and so some other influence is at work. 

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Mr Walker
On 13/04/2017 at 10:21 AM, XenoFish said:

Imagine for a moment that you want to affirm a simple think. Like beauty. You may feel unattractive and you want to affirm that you have positive qualities. While this is good on paper it's going to take something more tangible than just affirmaitons, which is intention + action. You can tell yourself that you're beautify 24/7 and convince yourself so thoroughly that it's true. But it's fragile. If you affirm this while doing such things as eating right, exercising, and personal grooming. You're making it real. The internal motivation manifest externally. 

Now if you're affirming something purely external (like most L.O.A. users) this is purely psychological. Dealing with confirmation bias and cognitive bias.

Imagine it this way. You conscious want something but you have no subconscious desire. Now imagine that you found a way to take a conscious desire and package it in a way that it becomes a subconscious drive. It's the difference between wanting and doing. It's a lot like making a sandwich, you intend to make it, give it some thought, and find yourself in the kitchen. Intention without action is inert. Action without intent is directionless. Hand in hand they are success.

Isnt belief all?

Why should grooming etc actually make you  seem more beautiful to your own mind.

its easier to reconstruct the ideal  of beauty and convince yourself that you are beautiful.

Perception IS reality, if only  within the mind. 

The step of using conscious  will and visualisation  to physically alter things is only the first step and is in part illusory.

One can go directly to "making it so"  within your mind without altering physical reality.  This is how one learns to control emotions First by the use of will to alter and discipline emotional responses but, with learning and skill, to simply step into whatever emotional state one wants to be in. 

It is eventually  easier to eliminate the hunger, or need,  for a sandwich, than to actually bother to go and make one. 

 

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jmccr8
38 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

 How does your mind direct you to avoid dangers in the near or distant future,

Well for me believe it or not it is because I am paying attention to my environment.:yes:

40 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

tell you how to find lost objects, help you when you are lost,

I generally just walk back through the doorway that I just passed through and bingo I remember.

41 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

let you read the minds of other people etc  .?

I don't read minds, I look at the environment of the situation, first I look at have they eaten, are they tired, and have they been getting their poom-poom regularly.

 

44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

How does your mind push you out of the way of a speeding car/bus/truck,  with enough force to leave a bruise on your chest?  How can a voice from your mind, be heard on a radio or a cb, and heard by other people? How can others see something which only exists in your mind.

Unless there is verifiable attributes other than hearsay it belongs in the realm of non-existent. But then that's just me being the way I am.:D

jmccr8

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jmccr8
41 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is eventually  easier to eliminate the hunger, or need,  for a sandwich, than to actually bother to go and make one.

You might want to share that with the people that are starving to death, I'm sure they would appreciate knowing that it's all in their minds.:tu::whistle:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Well for me believe it or not it is because I am paying attention to my environment.:yes:

I generally just walk back through the doorway that I just passed through and bingo I remember.

I don't read minds, I look at the environment of the situation, first I look at have they eaten, are they tired, and have they been getting their poom-poom regularly.

 

Unless there is verifiable attributes other than hearsay it belongs in the realm of non-existent. But then that's just me being the way I am.:D

jmccr8

So basically you cannot see unpredictable events in a future time? You  cant find objects which have actually been LOST (or stolen)  rather than just misplaced,  and you cant read minds?   And how do the bruises ON YOUR chest occur, after an invisible force has pushed you out of danger.

 My question actually was IF your mind could do these things alone and independent of an external power why can't everyones  Our minds alone do not seem capable of actually doing these things, yet the y happen to many human beings. This suggests an outside entity which does not interact with everyone but with many.  

If the abilities are real then one either has to consider if one is a some sort of  superhuman OR if one is getting help from an outside entity . For me this became easy when that entity manifested physically before me,  but many humans have to ask themselves this question, IF their abilities are real and useful. 

Actually i like your answers.

 The first is more than just mindfulness. It becomes extending ones chi or awareness out into the environment, and becoming aware of many otherwise silent or invisible signals, and accessing/interpreting  them, not just subconsciously but consciously Humans used to be very good at this as hunters and gatherers, but we need a refresher course in it, in the urban jungle.  

The second is a very useful technique,  but again, in  its extension, one must replicate events and actions in order to prompt the subconscious to recall what it knows and remembers 

Reading minds is the abilty to go into the mind of another and know what they alone know (not necessarily individual thoughts, but for me basic, powerful, knowledge such as that a woman is pregnant and no one but her husband knows)  Or that someone has stolen something.

 I have ignored this ability for many years and it  now only manifests occasionally  but powerfully and accurately.  For me it is an irregular, but very real skill, which has some benefits and many dangers.  It is useful  (along with being able to read a person's physical and emotional state from observation,  and interpret tonal language and the emotive content of words)  when counselling people, and when defusing potential violence. . 

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Mr Walker
27 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

You might want to share that with the people that are starving to death, I'm sure they would appreciate knowing that it's all in their minds.:tu::whistle:

jmccr8

Those people I feed  as best i can. 

BUT, how a person responds to physical and environmental stressors is ALL in their mind. Pain (our perception or feeling of it)  hunger, suffering, anger, hate,  fear, are nothing BUT states of mind in a human being.  We cant help this, due to the self aware conscious state of our minds. 

 

But to return to the original example  The person making a sandwich clearly is not dying of hunger They are making a choice to eat and have ready access to food   They can alter that choice, and go directly to eliminating the perception of hunger in their conscious mind,  and thus eliminate  the need to make a sandwich; instead, waiting for their next meal. 

Now to the starving person. if the  only choice is to starve to death hungry afraid angry and stressed or to die without feeling the hunger or the anger, or the fear; and maybe even happy and content,  Which would YOU prefer ? We all have to die.  It is  only how we choose to die, which we can control.

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Those people I feed  as best i can. 

BUT, how a person responds to physical and environmental stressors is ALL in their mind. Pain (our perception or feeling of it)  hunger, suffering, anger, hate,  fear, are nothing BUT states of mind in a human being.  We cant help this, due to the self aware conscious state of our minds. 

 

Sorry but hunger does not exist in the mind alone, if you get between me and my food when I'm hungry I couldn't guarantee that you wouldn't loose a limb in the process and I might think that the meat was under cooked.:w00t:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Sorry but hunger does not exist in the mind alone, if you get between me and my food when I'm hungry I couldn't guarantee that you wouldn't loose a limb in the process and I might think that the meat was under cooked.:w00t:

jmccr8

Then that is a problem with your mental control and willpower. :)

It i s harder to alleviate or remove the physical symptoms of hunger, although this too can be achieved, but relatively easy to control the perception that one is hungry. (We do this all the time, often accidentally, as we get involved in other things which occupy our mind and take our thoughts away from our hunger.) If you are unconscious for 3 days, and don't eat, you have no feeling of hunger while unconscious. Thus hunger (our perception that we are hungry and need to eat)  is a conscious mental construct, which only exists when, and because, we are conscious of it.  As a conscious mental construct it can be manipulated and eliminated as can all, and any, conscious mental constructs.  

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

Then that is a problem with your mental control and willpower. :)

It i s harder to alleviate or remove the physical symptoms of hunger, although this too can be achieved, but relatively easy to control the perception that one is hungry. (We do this all the time, often accidentally, as we get involved in other things which occupy our mind and take our thoughts away from our hunger.) If you are unconscious for 3 days, and don't eat, you have no feeling of hunger while unconscious. Thus hunger (our perception that we are hungry and need to eat)  is a conscious mental construct, which only exists when, and because, we are conscious of it.  As a conscious mental construct it can be manipulated and eliminated as can all, and any, conscious mental constructs.  

The body needs nourishment it is a biological fact that we need to eat, at one time in this country they would not allow people into this country who had suffered malnutrition because it affects their mental state as well as other physical attributes. Sure you can manipulate your mind but it will not change the biological effects of consistent state of hunger.

Yes I can agree that some aspects of being human can be conditioning and subject to variation and control but not all of them. Of course each individual is unique so there are differences and not all of them can be controlled by the mind in the same way and for some not at all.

jmccr8

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jmccr8
21 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Then that is a problem with your mental control and willpower.

The type of work I do is physically demanding and this cadillac runs on hi-octane, there is no putting it off for extended periods of time several hours a day yeah okay but I count on my body to make my money and food doesn't just keep the body functioning a tired body with no nourishment makes one's mind dull and slows reflex. I am a slim build, lean so I don't have a reserve of body fat to tide me over so I eat because it provides optimum performance. I don't eat because it is a pleasure I enjoy, it is a function that I satisfy.

 I don't think that you know me well enough to comment on my mental control or willpower, those that do know me would laugh at such a suggestion.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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Mr Walker
Just now, jmccr8 said:

The body needs nourishment it is a biological fact that we need to eat, at one time in this country they would not allow people into this country who had suffered malnutrition because it affects their mental state as well as other physical attributes. Sure you can manipulate your mind but it will not change the biological effects of consistent state of hunger.

Yes I can agree that some aspects of being human can be conditioning and subject to variation and control but not all of them. Of course each individual is unique so there are differences and not all of them can be controlled by the mind in the same way and for some not at all.

jmccr8

All true but not what i was arguing for.  One can't overcome the physical effects of hunger, like malnutrition,  by will power. I totally agree But a person with access to food can regulate their access to  that food and a person with no access can die more comfortably, through them both using the power of mind. 

One can overcome the  physical feeling of hunger, the mental  anxiety/perception of being hungry, and the fear of dying from the hunger  

I dont believe your last statement. (but i suspect i didn't quite get what you meant) 

All human minds are basically the same, and operate the same way. So, through learning, skill, discipline, and time/effort, all minds can achieve similar outcomes  (there will be some limits based on genetics and physical differences within brains)

Psychologists  and neurologists are now saying they are close to being able to remove all phobias from  people,  for example, because all phobias are learned responses to environmental stimuli. 

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Sherapy
44 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

The body needs nourishment it is a biological fact that we need to eat, at one time in this country they would not allow people into this country who had suffered malnutrition because it affects their mental state as well as other physical attributes. Sure you can manipulate your mind but it will not change the biological effects of consistent state of hunger.

Yes I can agree that some aspects of being human can be conditioning and subject to variation and control but not all of them. Of course each individual is unique so there are differences and not all of them can be controlled by the mind in the same way and for some not at all.

jmccr8

Amen J., it sounds like a certain poster is advocating harmful practices, starving the body will lead to death eventually, or not getting enough attention so out comes the outrageous dangerous advice. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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jmccr8
2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

All human minds are basically the same, and operate the same way. So, through learning, skill, discipline, and time/effort, all minds can achieve similar outcomes  (there will be some limits based on genetics and physical differences within brains)

the physical structure of the brain is the same, the mind is a personal attribute and it is unique to the individual, if we were all the same we would all be rich and no-one would work for another, kinda messes up the economy.:w00t:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Amen J., it sounds like a certain poster is advocating harmful practices, starving the body will lead to death eventually, or not getting enough attention so out comes the outrageous dangerous advice. 

 

Maybe it's lonely at the top, and well I have been busy working so haven't had much time to interact and call on much of what I read on my breaks. Well that and last time my old buddy Walker and I conversed the thread got shut down so I have been more reserved in my responses.:whistle:

jmccr8

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Mr Walker
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

the physical structure of the brain is the same, the mind is a personal attribute and it is unique to the individual, if we were all the same we would all be rich and no-one would work for another, kinda messes up the economy.:w00t:

jmccr8

That is really my point. Because, basically, all brains are the same every human has the same basic potential.

 Indeed we all could be rich  and never work for another  but not everyone wants that   More to the point, everyone of us could choose to FEEL rich, and to be happy and content with what we have.

Two major forces influence the development of mind First, external experiences and stimuli, second, internal experiences and stimuli  Thus two people can have an identical experience and interpret and react to it in different ways.

To return to my argument, despite different backgrounds, any mind can learn the same skills and attributes, given resources and time. Thus EVERY human can learn to control  their emotional responses, learn to not feel fear, or anger, or pain, unless they chose to.  The first step is accepting that this is possible. 

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Mr Walker
7 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Maybe it's lonely at the top, and well I have been busy working so haven't had much time to interact and call on much of what I read on my breaks. Well that and last time my old buddy Walker and I conversed the thread got shut down so I have been more reserved in my responses.:whistle:

jmccr8

Sherapy, as usual, totally misinterprets what i say, either deliberately, or because she doesn't get it  That is why i  have her on ignore and only see reposted comments 

There is no way my argument can be seen as  suggesting harm (For example i explained that where a person will die of starvation, this allows them to choose the way the y approach death, and to stop feeling hunger fear etc.,  but to approach death with a sense of peace.) 

For a person with plenty of food, it allows them to control their hunger and to eat only as needed. 

My "advice" is the factual information that, whatever their circumstances, a person can control and utilise their feelings and perceptions  constructively not destructively That includes  feeling and perceptions of pain suffering hunger anger fear love joy peace etc.  Sherapy not only does not believe this is possible,  she somehow sees it a s non natural, and thus harmful, to even attempt it. .  

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

That is really my point. Because, basically, all brains are the same every human has the same basic potential.

The brain and the mind are two different things and confusing their significance is a weak argument.

 

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

everyone of us could choose to FEEL rich, and to be happy and content with what we have

Let me run that past my banker and see if we don't have to pay bills because we are all rich.

5 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Two major forces influence the development of mind First, external experiences and stimuli, second, internal experiences and stimuli  Thus two people can have an identical experience and interpret and react to it in different ways

exactly my point

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

To return to my argument, despite different backgrounds, any mind can learn the same skills and attributes, given resources and time. Thus EVERY human can learn to control  their emotional responses, learn to not feel fear, or anger, or pain, unless they chose to.  The first step is accepting that this is possible.

When I cut my finger off and had it sewn back on rest assured that I would have had to have been brain dead not to feel it while it was healing.:hmm:

jmccr8

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back to earth
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

You might want to share that with the people that are starving to death, I'm sure they would appreciate knowing that it's all in their minds.:tu::whistle:

jmccr8

Nooooooooo    !   You will start him off on a rave about  how he  .... 

 ....   you'll find out  .  

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Sherapy
13 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Nooooooooo    !   You will start him off on a rave about  how he  .... 

 ....   you'll find out  .  

Tonight's  topic is using mind control to starve to death. The first step is to believe you can. :o

Edited by Sherapy
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