Germany's nuclear fusion reactor really works

[UM-Bot]

Scientists have confirmed that the experimental machine is operating with 'unprecedented accuracy'.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/301395/germanys-nuclear-fusion-reactor-really-works

[PersonFromPorlock]

Call me when they get more energy out than they put in, for a sustained period.

[+OverSword]

Great news!  Let's hope energy companies don't start a war to fight implementation of this technology when the time comes.

[Parsec]

35 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Great news!  Let's hope energy companies don't start a war to fight implementation of this technology when the time comes.

I could probably be a bit CT on this, but I think they already have.  

[toast]

News release by the Max Planck Institute for Plasma Physics here and the related scientific paper here

[Derek Willis]

I am sure one day sustained fusion will be achieved. That will put an end to the researchers' joke that "fusion power is always fifty years away". 

[geraldnewfie]

and then an accident happens and research is lost.....yours truly ...oil company

[sepulchrave]

Thank you for the links to the actual paper, toast.

Not to put a damper on anyone's spirits but the original headline is somewhat misleading. It should read: Magnetic field in Germany's prototype stellerator operating to specifications.

The WX-7 has not achieved fusion. The WX-7 has not even sustained a plasma.

The magnetic field required for a stellerator-type reactor to even theoretically achieve fusion is extremely complicated, so actually realizing this type of magnetic field is an impressive advance.

However I suspect that the result of this research - being able to tailor the shape of magnetic fields to 1:100000 precision - will more find practical use elsewhere (medical imaging, spintronics, or magnetic-assisted nanostructure assembly, perhaps) long before an over-unity fusion powerplant is build.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

 

I heard the saying "Fusion power is allways 20 years in the future and it have been so for the last 50 years." 

Anyway the WX-7 was never intended as a powerplant, it is just one of many small steps towards a viable fusion power plant. The next step is ITER, which is being built in France right now. https://www.iter.org/

ITER isn't a powerplant either but after that we should see DEMO, which will be a prototype powerplant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEMO. Unlike ITER, DEMO is only really a paper project right now.

There are other paths to fusion power, so in the end we might not even use the magnetic confinement system tested in WX-7 reactor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_power

5 hours ago, OverSword said:

Let's hope energy companies don't start a war to fight implementation of this technology when the time comes.

Since we are nowhere near having a working fusion powerplant there is really no need to go into conspiracy mode. Afterall why would anybody start a war to fight the implementation of something that doesn't exist yet ?

5 hours ago, Parsec said:

I could probably be a bit CT on this, but I think they already have.  

Who are "they" ? 

What have "they" done ?

[+DieChecker]

7 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

I am sure one day sustained fusion will be achieved. That will put an end to the researchers' joke that "fusion power is always fifty years away". 

Maybe in 50 years??

[+DieChecker]

8 hours ago, OverSword said:

Great news!  Let's hope energy companies don't start a war to fight implementation of this technology when the time comes.

Considering the oil/energy corporation will probably be the only ones with the infrastructure and the capital to build and operate multiple plants, I think their involvement will be guaranteed. 

[Frank Merton]

The efforts of the energy companies, mainly oil and coal, to prevent substitution of their products with renewable energy (and deny the problems their products cause) put me in mind of the efforts of the tobacco companies and now the soft drink companies to deny and hide the problems of their products.  It's enough to make one a socialist, except socialist enterprises are no better.  To rise to the top of a large business requires a certain ruthlessness, amorality, and willingness to put profit ahead of people.

The only solution has to be political (regulation, subsidies for alternatives to jump start them, etc.).  Unfortunately the established businesses have lots of resources and lobbyists and, well, after the mess the Americans just created in the world, a lot of foolish voters easily taken in by propaganda.

Who knows, we may get lucky and technology come along that simply out-competes the established firms on its own.  This could happen, and there are signs it may happen, but I continue to fear the political power of the political right to prevent a switch-over even then. 

[toast]

8 hours ago, sepulchrave said:

Thank you for the links to the actual paper, toast.

Not to put a damper on anyone's spirits but the original headline is somewhat misleading. It should read: Magnetic field in Germany's prototype stellerator operating to specifications.

The WX-7 has not achieved fusion. The WX-7 has not even sustained a plasma.

You are welcome and you are absolutely correct here. Furthermore, the W7x is a test carrier only and will never deliver high amounts of output, by design, because its designed just for the reason to develop and test this kind of fusion technology further.

[Derek Willis]

7 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I heard the saying "Fusion power is allways 20 years in the future and it have been so for the last 50 years." 

The ZETA project began in the UK in 1957. That is now sixty years ago, so even fifty years was overly optimistic! I also heard a "joke" that achieving sustained fusion will be the most important development since the invention of the wheel - it says something about humanity that there was a gap of six thousand years between these events. 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

1 hour ago, Derek Willis said:

The ZETA project began in the UK in 1957. That is now sixty years ago, so even fifty years was overly optimistic! I also heard a "joke" that achieving sustained fusion will be the most important development since the invention of the wheel - it says something about humanity that there was a gap of six thousand years between these events. 

Thank you for pointing me to the ZETA project. Seems like the British were early leaders in fusion research, just as they had been in fission. It is a little know fact that the UK, not the US or the Germans, had the frist nuclear weapons programme in the world. They lacked the funding to continue, so it was handed over to the US.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys

Previously I thought that the first fusion research reactor was the Soviet T-3 Tokamak. The Tokamak pioneered the design that is used in the WX-7 and ITER though. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[SHaYap]

Cheaper and 'smaller ... ' or 'baby' steps ...

~

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• Solar Reserve link

~
 

Problem is the security needed to put in place to protect the fragile facilities would knock the benefits out of the bottom lines ...

~

[paperdyer]

Considering how Eco-Friendly Germany has been getting over the past 20 years or so, I'm sure the process will be clean.  Cost will be another issue as the Germans typically over engineer.  In this case it might be a good idea, though.

[Grandpa Greenman]

10 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

The efforts of the energy companies, mainly oil and coal, to prevent substitution of their products with renewable energy (and deny the problems their products cause) put me in mind of the efforts of the tobacco companies and now the soft drink companies to deny and hide the problems of their products.  It's enough to make one a socialist, except socialist enterprises are no better.  To rise to the top of a large business requires a certain ruthlessness, amorality, and willingness to put profit ahead of people.

The only solution has to be political (regulation, subsidies for alternatives to jump start them, etc.).  Unfortunately the established businesses have lots of resources and lobbyists and, well, after the mess the Americans just created in the world, a lot of foolish voters easily taken in by propaganda.

Who knows, we may get lucky and technology come along that simply out-competes the established firms on its own.  This could happen, and there are signs it may happen, but I continue to fear the political power of the political right to prevent a switch-over even then. 

Yup, that is about it, Frank.   We got solar technology that works, but is held back by power companies who don't want to lose their power monopoly.  But you can't keep a good idea down forever, once the jin is out of the bottle there isn't stopping it. Kind of like the atomic bomb, once the science is out there then people are going to use it for better or worse.  This year has left me stunned and disheartened. Oh well, have a Merry Solstice, Frank.   

[+OverSword]

14 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Since we are nowhere near having a working fusion powerplant there is really no need to go into conspiracy mode. Afterall why would anybody start a war to fight the implementation of something that doesn't exist yet ?

No conspiracy mode necessary.  That's really a pretty insulting statement.  Despite your pessimism I have no doubt that we are 20 years or less away from this technology being ready to replace current means of energy production. When first perfected this technology will be proprietary for some years and many of the current energy giants will be forced out of business.  If you honestly don't think that is enough to start wars then you have not been living on this planet for long.  World wide electrical production profits I would guess total into the hundreds of billions of dollars at least. 

Edited December 7, 2016 by OverSword

[Derek Willis]

6 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Thank you for pointing me to the ZETA project. Seems like the British were early leaders in fusion research, just as they had been in fission. It is a little know fact that the UK, not the US or the Germans, had the frist nuclear weapons programme in the world. They lacked the funding to continue, so it was handed over to the US.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_Alloys

Previously I thought that the first fusion research reactor was the Soviet T-3 Tokamak. The Tokamak pioneered the design that is used in the WX-7 and ITER though. 

Yes, the UK were at the forefront of many technologies back then - nuclear fission and fusion, jet aircraft, rockets, computers. I think this was because of the momentum created by the innovations of the Second World War. However, for the past three or four decades the succession of political buffoons who run the country have had little interest in science and technology. 

I had read about Tube Alloys in passing, but I had not realized how significant it was in establishing the practicality of a fission bomb. I note it was your compatriot Niels Bohr who saw how isolating uranium-235 was the key to it all. And I also note Google are today honoring another Dane - Ole Christensen Roemer - for being the first to determine the speed of light!

[Parsec]

17 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Who are "they" ? 

What have "they" done ?

Considering that in my original post I quoted OverSword and was directly replying to what he wrote, it's pretty obvious that "they" I referred to were the energy companies he mentioned. 

Regarding "what have they done", again, it was already in his post

Quote

start a war to fight implementation of this technology when the time comes

 

Before patronising people you should at least take the time to actually read all their rantings. 

[Derek Willis]

On 12/6/2016 at 8:34 PM, Parsec said:

I could probably be a bit CT on this, but I think they already have.  

Are you saying you think the energy companies are already preventing implementation of fusion energy before the technology has even been demonstrated?  

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

No conspiracy mode necessary.  That's really a pretty insulting statement.  

I am sorry if I have insulted you, but I wasn't aware that you would be this easily offended.

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

  Despite your pessimism I have no doubt that we are 20 years or less away from this technology being ready to replace current means of energy production.

Apparently you didn't catch the fact that the quote "Fusion power is allways 20 years in the future and it have been so for the last 50 years."  is a joke that have been told for years among the people working with fusion research. Its not something I made up. You would have known that if you had read Derek Willis' post # 6. 

I could choose to be offended by the fact that you call me a pessimist, despite the fact that I linked to examples of what is being done to make fusion power a reality, but I am not going to do that.

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

When first perfected this technology will be proprietary for some years and many of the current energy giants will be forced out of business.  

Wouldn't that depend on who develops it ?

ITER it is a multinational group of governments working togethe. All of the results are available to the EU, US, China, Japan, India, South Korea and Russia. 

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

If you honestly don't think that is enough to start wars then you have not been living on this planet for long. 

I don't really have an opinion on wars that might possibly happen someday, about something that doesn't really exist yet.

I have lived on this planet for 43 years. It is in fact the only planet I have ever lived on. 

6 hours ago, OverSword said:

 World wide electrical production profits I would guess total into the hundreds of billions of dollars at least. 

They could still make those profits from a fusion powerplant, so why is that an issue ?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

3 hours ago, Parsec said:

Considering that in my original post I quoted OverSword and was directly replying to what he wrote, it's pretty obvious that "they" I referred to were the energy companies he mentioned. 

Regarding "what have they done", again, it was already in his post

 

Before patronising people you should at least take the time to actually read all their rantings. 

See Derek Willis' post # 22.

[sepulchrave]

On 2016-12-15 at 2:43 AM, seanjo said:

My Dad was part of the maintenance crew at Culhum laboratory's in Oxfordshire when they were experimenting with fusion in the taurus there, he says they achieved fusion for micro-seconds, this was late 80's early 90's.

It is worth remembering that nuclear fusion is relatively easy to achieve, and even high school students have built table-top cold fusion reactors.

However building a nuclear fusion reactor that generates power, instead of using power, is a much more difficult problem - one that has not yet unambiguously been achieved.