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RoofGardener

Does the state of Palestine exist ?

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RoofGardener

My apologies if this has already been discussed (if so, please do point me to the topic.... I couldn't find it in search).. but... a topic arose on another discussion forum, and I'd value your collective wisdom on it. 

We discuss "the Palestinians" in terms of a nation state these days. Perhaps the most concrete representation of this concept is in the creation of the Palestinian Authority, which was created out of the Oslo Accords in the 1990's. Arising from these 'treaties' was the formation of many of the typical institutions of a State, including a Palestinian Parliament, Ministries of various civil affairs, and so forth. Note that the PLO is still regarded as being the sole representative of the "Palestinian people", but it delegates  powers to the Palestinian Authority to create the practical manifestations of the "State" of Palestine. 

Now, here's the interesting thing. The legitimacy of the PA is - as mentioned - based on the two "Oslo" accords. In turn, those accords where based on the preliminary Declaration of Principles. The DoP required that both parties recognise each other; the Israeli government had to treat the PLO as a full negotiating partner, and not a terrorist group, and the PLO had to recognise that Israel had a right to exist, and was a legitimate State. This required that the existing Charter of the PLO had to be amended to remove the passages denying the legitimacy of the State of Israel, and calling for its total destruction.

Rabin and Arafat duly signed these pledges, in a blaze of publicity. 

So far so good. 

The Knesset duly ratified the DoP (and the subsequent Accords), albeit by an unimpressive majority. 

The Palestinian National Committee... the only body authorised to modify the Charter, or to ratify the subsequent Accords.....never did ? They made multiple promises to do both, and multiple excuses, but they never actually DID it.

Can anyone confirm this ? Because if so, then the PA lacks any international legitimacy, and the PLO - the sole representative of the Palestinian People - is still committed to the destruction of Israel. And - as one of just many consequences - there is no such state as "Palestine", and no such nationality as "Palestinian".

 

Thoughts ? 

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third_eye

Which Israel are you referring to ?

 

Quote

 

Is a Two-State Solution (Israel and Palestine) an Acceptable Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict?

Last updated on: 2/4/2016 2:36:58 PM PST

 

  • Israeli Palestinian procon org link

 

~

Which Palestine are you referring to ?

 

 
Quote
  • foreign policy link

~

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Black Monk

There's never been a state of Palestine. Palestine is merely a geographical region.

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third_eye

The World disagrees ...

~
FlagUN_Palestine_Eurovision.jpg

~

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Phaeton80
38 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

My apologies if this has already been discussed (if so, please do point me to the topic.... I couldn't find it in search).. but... a topic arose on another discussion forum, and I'd value your collective wisdom on it. 

We discuss "the Palestinians" in terms of a nation state these days. Perhaps the most concrete representation of this concept is in the creation of the Palestinian Authority, which was created out of the Oslo Accords in the 1990's. Arising from these 'treaties' was the formation of many of the typical institutions of a State, including a Palestinian Parliament, Ministries of various civil affairs, and so forth. Note that the PLO is still regarded as being the sole representative of the "Palestinian people", but it delegates  powers to the Palestinian Authority to create the practical manifestations of the "State" of Palestine. 

Now, here's the interesting thing. The legitimacy of the PA is - as mentioned - based on the two "Oslo" accords. In turn, those accords where based on the preliminary Declaration of Principles. The DoP required that both parties recognise each other; the Israeli government had to treat the PLO as a full negotiating partner, and not a terrorist group, and the PLO had to recognise that Israel had a right to exist, and was a legitimate State. This required that the existing Charter of the PLO had to be amended to remove the passages denying the legitimacy of the State of Israel, and calling for its total destruction.

Rabin and Arafat duly signed these pledges, in a blaze of publicity. 

So far so good. 

The Knesset duly ratified the DoP (and the subsequent Accords), albeit by an unimpressive majority. 

The Palestinian National Committee... the only body authorised to modify the Charter, or to ratify the subsequent Accords.....never did ? They made multiple promises to do both, and multiple excuses, but they never actually DID it.

Can anyone confirm this ? Because if so, then the PA lacks any international legitimacy, and the PLO - the sole representative of the Palestinian People - is still committed to the destruction of Israel. And - as one of just many consequences - there is no such state as "Palestine", and no such nationality as "Palestinian".

 

Thoughts ? 

 

..Ill give you my thoughts allright, Gardener of Roofs. I dont know if youve been living under a stylized gardenrock the last couple of decades, but the lack of a sovereign, internationally recognized state for the Palestinians (int recognized borders, government) - just like the case for Jews before Israel's unilateral creation through powerful interference of House Rothschild by way of the Balfour declaration - is the very issue the world has been discussing for some time now. These people would like their freedom back, just like the Jews did under the yoke of the Nazi's back in the day. Imagine that huh, the sheer 'anti Semetic' audacity is sickening.. Oh thats right, Palestinians are Semites too! And as the land of Israel was promised to Abraham and his descendants, would that mean Ishmael as well? Well golly, I gues it would!

And regarding 'the commit of the PLO to the destruction of Israel'; please show me where this is actually stated in the Palestinian charter. They claim Israel's unilateral creation was illegal, which is correct. They commit against Zionist ideology, as do a significant number of Jews. In fact, Israel is the one that actually, in effect, is destroying the whole Palestinian identity; the whole of the Palestinian People, their culture, their land; the past couple of decades until this very moment. Seems to me some would love to use thesame victimizing trick used against Ahmadinejad, screaming 'Wolf!' at the first sign of critique against such an imperialist, ultra nationalist, fascist and racist political ideology - allthwhile stealthily encroaching on other peoples land. ..Claiming he stated Israel should be removed from the face of the earth, while he was referring to Zionism.

Some interesting remarks from our dear 'strong leader' Netanyahu concerning his true intentions regarding this Oslo accord;

" In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[10][11] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations", and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location"—such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords", Netanyahu affirmed.[12] However, this is clearly consistent with Yitzhak Rabin's October 1995 statement to the Knesset on the ratification of the interim Oslo agreement: "B. The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley, in the broadest meaning of that term."[13][14] "

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_I_Accord#Remarks_from_Benjamin_Netanyahu

 

..I dont need to rehash all the quotes from Israeli government officials declaring their explicit desire to commit genocide against the Palestinian People, Im quite sure.

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stevewinn
1 hour ago, Black Monk said:

There's never been a state of Palestine. Palestine is merely a geographical region.

Exactly artificial like many of the countries in the middle east, before and after the fall of the Ottoman empire the French and British simply drew lines on a map. (1916) creating many of the countries we see today, Syria, Lebanon etc... It explains many of the tensions in the middle east today setting hard borders between a tribes people. 

interesting reads: World History in maps and Prisoners of Geography; Ten Maps that tell you everything you need to know about the world (geopolitically)

As for today, countries who recognise the state of Palestine in (green) and Palestine is classed as a non-member observer, status which entitles the entity to participate in the work of United Nations. today two countries have that status. they are - Palestine and Vatican City.

  500px-Palestine_recognition_only.svg.png

 

 

 

Edited by stevewinn
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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

..Ill give you my thoughts allright, Gardener of Roofs. I dont know if youve been living under a stylized gardenrock the last couple of decades, but the lack of a sovereign, internationally recognized state for the Palestinians (int recognized borders, government) - just like the case for Jews before Israel's unilateral creation through powerful interference of House Rothschild by way of the Balfour declaration - is the very issue the world has been discussing for some time now. These people would like their freedom back, just like the Jews did under the yoke of the Nazi's back in the day. Imagine that huh, the sheer 'anti Semetic' audacity is sickening.. Oh thats right, Palestinians are Semites too! And as the land of Israel was promised to Abraham and his descendants, would that mean Ishmael as well? Well golly, I gues it would!

And regarding 'the commit of the PLO to the destruction of Israel'; please show me where this is actually stated in the Palestinian charter. They claim Israel's unilateral creation was illegal, which is correct. They commit against Zionist ideology, as do a significant number of Jews. In fact, Israel is the one that actually, in effect, is destroying the whole Palestinian identity; the whole of the Palestinian People, their culture, their land; the past couple of decades until this very moment. Seems to me some would love to use thesame victimizing trick used against Ahmadinejad, screaming 'Wolf!' at the first sign of critique against such an imperialist, ultra nationalist, fascist and racist political ideology - allthwhile stealthily encroaching on other peoples land. ..Claiming he stated Israel should be removed from the face of the earth, while he was referring to Zionism.

Some interesting remarks from our dear 'strong leader' Netanyahu concerning his true intentions regarding this Oslo accord;

" In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]... I said I would, but [that] I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[10][11] Netanyahu then explained how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from "specified military locations", and insisted he be allowed to specify which areas constituted a "military location"—such as the whole of the Jordan Valley. "Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords", Netanyahu affirmed.[12] However, this is clearly consistent with Yitzhak Rabin's October 1995 statement to the Knesset on the ratification of the interim Oslo agreement: "B. The security border of the State of Israel will be located in the Jordan Valley, in the broadest meaning of that term."[13][14] "

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_I_Accord#Remarks_from_Benjamin_Netanyahu

 

..I dont need to rehash all the quotes from Israeli government officials declaring their explicit desire to commit genocide against the Palestinian People, Im quite sure.

Thanks for taking the time for such a considered response Phaeton80 (and others). I appreciate it. 

Why do I get the feeling that I've just stirred a hornets nest ? :P

I was hoping to discuss purely the issue of whether the PLO ever ratified the various OSLO promises (which gave legitimacy to the Palestinian Authority, and the legal basis for a Palestinian State, or at least the seeds of such a basis).

To respond to your specific points about the Charter, Phaeton80, well... I would suggest that articles 19-21 cover the point I made about it ? (these where the specific points that the DoP required modification). To quote from your (kindly) supplied link....

Quote

Article 19:

The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is null and void from the very beginning, whatever time has elapsed because it was done contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and their national right to their homeland and contradicts with the principles embodied in the charter of the UN, the first of which is the right of self- determination.

Article 20:

The Balfour Declaration, the mandate document and what has been based upon them are considered null and void. The claim of a historical or spiritual tie between Jews and Palestine does not tally with the historical realities nor with the constituencies of statehood in their true sense. Judaism in its character as a religion of revelation, is not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Jews are not one people with an independent personality. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21:

The Palestinian Arab people in expressing itself through the armed Palestinian revolution, rejects every solution that is a substitute for a complete liberation of Palestine. and rejects all alternative plans that aim at the settlement of the Palestinian issue or its internationalization.

 

To return to my opening question: has this charter ever been modified, as required by the DoP, and as promised by Yasser Arafat (several times) ? Because if not, then the "legal" basis for what is currently regarded as the Palestinian "state" vanishes in a puff of smoke ? 

Edited by RoofGardener
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RavenHawk

There is just so much that is inaccurate from Phlemton80 and at the moment, I don't have the time - I'm heading out the door.  But let me just point out one thing here.  Israel and Zionism are interchangeable.  One cannot exist without the other.  If you understand the whole reasoning behind the need for the state of Israel, then you understand what Zionism is.  As I've said countless times before, Zionism is merely Israel's  Manifest Destiny.

What do the Palestinians have?  The Ottomans controlled the land since the 1500s (or so).  Various semi-nomadic tribes wandered in and basically squatted on land that wasn't theirs.  In 1923 the Ottomans left and then the British came and went.  That doesn't mean that the land somehow defaults to the Palestinians.  Most had not legally acquired deeds.  The Palestinians aren't really a people.  They are just a conglomeration of various Arab, Muslim tribes.  And they have never shown any desire for statehood, let alone a two-state solution.  Islam does not play nice with others especially having to share with Jews as equals.  That flies in the face of Islamic belief.

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and then
6 hours ago, third_eye said:

The World disagrees ...

~
FlagUN_Palestine_Eurovision.jpg

~

 

Yes, it does.  In fact, if a single man were to, today acknowledge its existence as a state, it would have all the legitimacy of every other state in the UN.  Poof!  Voila!  Instant country.  If it's all as simple as one man's vote and flying a flag, why do you imagine it doesn't happen?

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RoofGardener

Well... this is all interesting. However.....

Can anyone confirm whether the PLO ever ratified the OSLO accords, (which Arafat solemnly signed up to) or ever changed their Charter (as promised) to comply with the Decleration of Principles ?

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third_eye
2 minutes ago, and then said:

Yes, it does.  In fact, if a single man were to, today acknowledge its existence as a state, it would have all the legitimacy of every other state in the UN.  Poof!  Voila!  Instant country.  If it's all as simple as one man's vote and flying a flag, why do you imagine it doesn't happen?

I have no idea what you are going off on a tangent about, if you do not acknowledge the UN on this issue then you might as well be saying the Jews originated from Mars and has every right to push the Palestinians to Venus and it'll make little to no difference ...

~

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and then
Just now, third_eye said:

I have no idea what you are going off on a tangent about, if you do not acknowledge the UN on this issue then you might as well be saying the Jews originated from Mars and has every right to push the Palestinians to Venus and it'll make little to no difference ...

~

 

No, I'm not going off on any tangent.  It's a simple question.  If my president, with 3 weeks left in his term, decided today to vote yes for Palestinian Statehood, the State of Palestine would exist in hours.  Is this not true?  

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RoofGardener

I think I understand where you are coming from, And Then. 

Fortunately, the UN doesn't have the power to "create" nations. The PA doesn't yet qualify as a "Nation", so it cannot be formally recognised by the UN. 

Meanwhile, what is your position on the DoP ? Did the Palestinian National Council ever ratify them, or have the last 18 years been the biggest con trick since we sold London Bridge to the Americans ? 

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third_eye
Just now, and then said:

No, I'm not going off on any tangent.  It's a simple question.  If my president, with 3 weeks left in his term, decided today to vote yes for Palestinian Statehood, the State of Palestine would exist in hours.  Is this not true?  

That would depend on the subsequent talks through the official diplomatic channels, regardless on whether you accept it or not, the Palestinian State is already officially recognised by the majority of the members of the UN ... the US also endorses it ... Israel does not accept it ... and Israel is pulling the US by the nose on this ...
 

Quote

 

"The premise of our position internationally has been to support direct negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians," the official said.

"We are now in a reality where the Israeli government no longer supports direct negotiations. Therefore we clearly have to factor that into our decisions going forward."

However, Netanyahu appeared to backtrack on his comments in a TV interview Thursday, refuting that he had shifted his position on the two-state solution, telling MSNBC: "I haven't changed my policy."

"I don't want a one-state solution. I want a sustainable, peaceful two-state solution. But for that, circumstances have to change," he added.


 

  • europe newsweek link

~

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and then
Just now, RoofGardener said:

I think I understand where you are coming from, And Then. 

Fortunately, the UN doesn't have the power to "create" nations. The PA doesn't yet qualify as a "Nation", so it cannot be formally recognised by the UN. 

Meanwhile, what is your position on the DoP ? Did the Palestinian National Council ever ratify them, or have the last 18 years been the biggest con trick since we sold London Bridge to the Americans ? 

 

I have no knowledge that they have ever followed through on ANY agreement they have signed.  I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.  It has been their pattern to demand, and gain, concessions while giving nothing in return for years.  I will give them one compliment, they have never waivered and it is the world that has enabled the con job.  The repercussions are predictable but the extent is not.  2017 looks to be a very volatile year in the region.

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and then
8 minutes ago, third_eye said:

That would depend on the subsequent talks through the official diplomatic channels, regardless on whether you accept it or not, the Palestinian State is already officially recognised by the majority of the members of the UN ... the US also endorses it ... Israel does not accept it ... and Israel is pulling the US by the nose on this ...
 

  • europe newsweek link

~

 

Then, by all means, I hope Obama clears this all up by recognition of the State of Palestine, immediately.  It's a question that needs settling, finally.  Once he does it, the world can decide exactly how supportive they wish to be in establishing the "facts on the ground".  We both know that the Devil is in the details, what?

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Mr.United_Nations
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

There is just so much that is inaccurate from Phlemton80 and at the moment, I don't have the time - I'm heading out the door.  But let me just point out one thing here.  Israel and Zionism are interchangeable.  One cannot exist without the other.  If you understand the whole reasoning behind the need for the state of Israel, then you understand what Zionism is.  As I've said countless times before, Zionism is merely Israel's  Manifest Destiny.

What do the Palestinians have?  The Ottomans controlled the land since the 1500s (or so).  Various semi-nomadic tribes wandered in and basically squatted on land that wasn't theirs.  In 1923 the Ottomans left and then the British came and went.  That doesn't mean that the land somehow defaults to the Palestinians.  Most had not legally acquired deeds.  The Palestinians aren't really a people.  They are just a conglomeration of various Arab, Muslim tribes.  And they have never shown any desire for statehood, let alone a two-state solution.  Islam does not play nice with others especially having to share with Jews as equals.  That flies in the face of Islamic belief.

Jews never had a land either

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third_eye
1 minute ago, and then said:

Then, by all means, I hope Obama clears this all up by recognition of the State of Palestine, immediately.  It's a question that needs settling, finally.  Once he does it, the world can decide exactly how supportive they wish to be in establishing the "facts on the ground".  We both know that the Devil is in the details, what?

Bibi wants guarantees that his behind will be in the clear from the ICC ... and also sanctuary from repercussions from his personal enemies in Israel ... its a nasty business that drags a lot of innocent by standers into the stink ... its just one of those things that a handful of individuals that is making life difficult for all the rest ... its not all the Israelis, they want peace as much as the Palestinians just the same as it is for the Palestinians, but of course their voices are never heard except when Rabin was making the strides to making a viable treaty happen ... but then you know he was literally shot down ...  

~

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Mr.United_Nations
25 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I think I understand where you are coming from, And Then. 

Fortunately, the UN doesn't have the power to "create" nations. The PA doesn't yet qualify as a "Nation", so it cannot be formally recognised by the UN. 

Meanwhile, what is your position on the DoP ? Did the Palestinian National Council ever ratify them, or have the last 18 years been the biggest con trick since we sold London Bridge to the Americans ? 

The british created palestine as Britsh Palestine. So as Britian is a UN member and us3d of league of nations member. 

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Phaeton80
5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Thanks for taking the time for such a considered response Phaeton80 (and others). I appreciate it. 

Why do I get the feeling that I've just stirred a hornets nest ? :P

I was hoping to discuss purely the issue of whether the PLO ever ratified the various OSLO promises (which gave legitimacy to the Palestinian Authority, and the legal basis for a Palestinian State, or at least the seeds of such a basis).

To respond to your specific points about the Charter, Phaeton80, well... I would suggest that articles 19-21 cover the point I made about it ? (these where the specific points that the DoP required modification). To quote from your (kindly) supplied link....

Article 19:

The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is null and void from the very beginning, whatever time has elapsed because it was done contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and their national right to their homeland and contradicts with the principles embodied in the charter of the UN, the first of which is the right of self- determination.

Article 20:

The Balfour Declaration, the mandate document and what has been based upon them are considered null and void. The claim of a historical or spiritual tie between Jews and Palestine does not tally with the historical realities nor with the constituencies of statehood in their true sense. Judaism in its character as a religion of revelation, is not a nationality with an independent existence. Likewise, the Jews are not one people with an independent personality. They are rather citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21:

The Palestinian Arab people in expressing itself through the armed Palestinian revolution, rejects every solution that is a substitute for a complete liberation of Palestine. and rejects all alternative plans that aim at the settlement of the Palestinian issue or its internationalization.

 

Thats odd, do we have two charters on our hands? I just grabbed the first link that popped up; now it says something completely different than I remember, see:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html

Quote

The Original Palestine National Charter (1964)

[..]

Article 17. The Partitioning of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel are illegal and false regardless of the loss of time, because they were contrary to the wish of the Palestine people and its natural right to its homeland, and in violation of the basic principles embodied in the charter of the United Nations, foremost among which is the right to self-determination.

Article 18. The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate system and all that has been based upon them are considered fraud. The claims of historic and spiritual ties, ties between Jews and Palestine are not in agreement with the facts of history or with the true basis of sound statehood. Judaism because it is a divine religion is not a nationality with independent existence. Furthermore the Jews are not one people with an independent personality because they are citizens of the countries to which they belong.

Article 19. Zionism is a colonialist movement in its inception, aggressive and expansionist in its goals, racist and segregationist in its configurations and fascist in its means and aims. Israel in its capacity as the spearhead of this destructive movement and the pillar for colonialism is a permanent source of tension and turmoil in the Middle East in particular and to the international community in general. Because of this the People of Palestine are worthy of the support and sustenance of the community of nations.

Article 20. The causes of peace and security and the needs of right and justice demand from all nations, in order to safeguard true relationships among peoples, and to maintain the loyalty of citizens to their homeland, to consider Zionism an illegal movement and to outlaw its presence and activities.

Article 21. The Palestine people believes in the principle of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and the right of peoples to practice these principles. It also supports all international efforts to bring about peace on the basis of justice and free international co-operation.

Article 22. The People of Palestine believe in peaceful coexistence on the basis of legal existence, for there can be no coexistence with aggression, nor can there be peace with occupation and colonialism.

 

Whats going on here?

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RoofGardener

Ahhh... you are actually quite correct Phaeton80. The second document you have quoted above is the original 1964 PLO Charter. This related purely to the territory of Israel, and excluded the West Bank and Gaza, because - at the time - this was actually annexed (note, not occupied , but actually annexed ) by Jordan and Egypt respectively, so the PLO didn't want to stake any claim against it. (because it would then be attempting to stake a claim on what was Jordanian and Egyptian territory). 

After the 6-day war, Israel kicked the Jordanians out of the West Bank, and the Egyptians out of Gaza, at which point the PLO decided to stake a claim on both areas, and in 1968 amended their Covenant accordingly. The 1968 version was subsequently confirmed by the PLO in 1988 as being the "correct" version. 

 

It is an interesting little codicil to the discussion that - had Israel not ejected Egypt and Jordan, then there wouldn't BE a Palestinian Authority, and no question of a "Palestinian People". The occupants of the West Bank where Jordanians, and the occupants of Gaza where Egyptians. the Arab occupants of Israel where Israeli's. There where no Palestinians ! So the people that actually created the basis of a future Palestinian state - by ejecting the occupying Jordanians and Egyptians -  where.... the Israeli's !!

Edited by RoofGardener
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RoofGardener
2 hours ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Jews never had a land either

Umm..... Israel and Judea ?

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RavenHawk
4 hours ago, Mr.United_Nations said:

Jews never had a land either

Really?  Baring the ancient claim, Jews had continuous settlement since 135ce.  Of the time of the Tanzimat, Jews had began to register their deeds with the Ottoman authorities.  By 1909 with the aid of Rothchild, Jews had also legally purchased land from the rightful owners.  The Ottomans preferred selling to Jews rather than the Fellahin because the Jews had the resources.  When the British took over they were inundated with bogus Fellahin deeds, many duplicates and overlapping.  The Fellahin mindset made them far from responsible people.  They were the Gypsies of the Muslim world.  So you tell me, who has the legal and moral claim?  It is for that reason that you see the Palestinian jealousy of the Jews.

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docyabut2

Does the state of Palestine exist ? yes it  it did in   the state of  Palestine in ancient history of  Giza and  was once Greek. 

Edited by docyabut2

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RoofGardener

The region was conquered by inumerable groups back in ancient times, but it was never an independent sovereign state ? 

Be that as it may, and just to return to the OP... is ANYONE aware of any link to the 'revised' PLO Charter, as per the promises given to the UN regarding the DoP ? Or any link to a news story covering either the ratification of a new charter, or - indeed - the final Oslo Accords themselves ? 

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