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RoofGardener

Does the state of Palestine exist ?

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RavenHawk
4 hours ago, ali smack said:

I would say that the state of palestine does exist. I just think it's sad how it's getting smaller with settlers taking more and more land off them.

It’s not a de jure existence.  It is getting smaller and that seems to be the most humane way to deal with it.  What land?  They legally own no land.  They have been no more than squatters.  The British established that the majority had bogus deeds when they took their census.  In the Six Day War, Israel captured the building where the Palestinians housed the bogus deeds to preserve the facts.  If the Arab League had been successful at destroying it, then there would still be doubt to rightful ownership.  But Israel applies the 1858 Ottoman Land Laws to the abandon lands to determine settlements.  This is the same law that the Fellahin had lived under long before Israel when the land was owned by the Ottomans.  The Ottomans also worried about the Fellahin stealing land and came up with the law to protect the Empire.  It’s basically the same reasons that the current neighbors really don’t want to absorb them.  The Fellahin are basically the gypsies of the Arab world.  Their life view is what condemns them.

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RoofGardener
On 1/15/2017 at 1:36 PM, ali smack said:

I would say that the state of palestine does exist. I just think it's sad how it's getting smaller with settlers taking more and more land off them.

Well, thats kinda the key point Ali,

You might choose to believe that a State of Palestine SHOULD exist. But all of the current world (and UN) acceptance of the legal status of a Palestinian State is based on the promises undertaken in the Oslo Accords (and the Wye River Memorandum), and in particular the Decleration of Principles. 

The PLO was REQUIRED by the UN to amend their charter, as a precondition of the recognition of the Palestinian Authority. 

If... IF... the PLO never amended its Charter, then the whole bedrock of formal diplomatic recognition, and the status of the Palestinian Authority, collapses. The PLO would have made public fools of the UN, and two American Presidents. (to say nothing of the Vatican and a host of other world leaders).

So, can anyone find a reference to the revised PLO Charter ? 

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ExpandMyMind

Obviously the state of Palestine doesn't exist. That's what the whole conflict is about.

This entire thread is a waste of time.

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ExpandMyMind
On 07/01/2017 at 1:09 AM, and then said:

Not really.  They can call themselves Palestinians forever but that doesn't mean they have a State.  In fact, the only thing that really bonds them together is a virulent hatred of Jews.  Ex is correct, though, the topic has been done to death.  Time will tell the tale for the "state of Palestine".

I didn't claim they had a state. And there are many things that bond them together, like the natives of any region. It is ignorance to try to claim otherwise. 

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and then
11 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I didn't claim they had a state. And there are many things that bond them together, like the natives of any region. It is ignorance to try to claim otherwise. 

Yes, they have many commonalities.  They have never had a country nor have they owned the land they occupied.  They are ARABS.  Their religion tells them to hate a Jew for breathing and that is the true goal of the Palestinians, to remedy that "problem".  That is the truth, no matter how you attempt to twist it.  They say as much in their native language daily but since no one will report it, there can't be any citations except from PMW, which guys like you refuse to credit.  The fact that people deny a thing does not change its truth.  You want to talk about ignorance?  How about these Palestinians who claim that Jews had no history in Jerusalem?  The archaeological record seems to pose no problem for Palestinian supporters.  A day is coming when these deluded people are going to lose everything.  EVERYTHING.  And they have had chance after chance to accept a state.  Not everything they wanted, but a state nonetheless.  They wanted everything or nothing.  They will get the latter.

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ExpandMyMind
10 minutes ago, and then said:

Yes, they have many commonalities.  They have never had a country nor have they owned the land they occupied.  They are ARABS.  Their religion tells them to hate a Jew for breathing and that is the true goal of the Palestinians, to remedy that "problem".  That is the truth, no matter how you attempt to twist it.  They say as much in their native language daily but since no one will report it, there can't be any citations except from PMW, which guys like you refuse to credit.  The fact that people deny a thing does not change its truth.  You want to talk about ignorance?  How about these Palestinians who claim that Jews had no history in Jerusalem?  The archaeological record seems to pose no problem for Palestinian supporters.  A day is coming when these deluded people are going to lose everything.  EVERYTHING.  And they have had chance after chance to accept a state.  Not everything they wanted, but a state nonetheless.  They wanted everything or nothing.  They will get the latter.

Of course they didn't have history in Palestine. They were Europeans and Russians. That's like saying I have history in Scandinavia. 

And don't get all high and mighty over Islam and non believers. Have you ever read a bible? All mono theistic religions have bits in them like that. Hell, the bible calls for being stoned to death for planting different crops side by side.

Even in Palestine it's more about land and invaders than about religion. To deny this is to deny simple history. Yeah we can see that among the more radical it's put forth as hatred of the Jews, but they don't represent the entire people. Hell, the Jews and Arab Palestinians lived in peace together until Zionism took hold in the early 20th century. That's all the proof you should need.

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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and then
6 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Hell, the Jews and Arab Palestinians lived in peace together until Zionism took hold in the early 20th century. That's all the proof you should need.

Muslims have OFTEN coexisted with Jews through history.  The conditions have always been quite uniform at some point, however.  It's called Dhimmitude.  The Jews could keep their place in the community if they paid dearly in taxes (jizya) and in humiliation in public.  When those elements were removed, the Muslims only wanted them dead.  You should read a little more broadly.  You simply cannot ignore every source that would tend to validate this statement.

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The Truman show
8 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Of course they didn't have history in Palestine. They were Europeans and Russians. That's like saying I have history in Scandinavia. 

And don't get all high and mighty over Islam and non believers. Have you ever read a bible? All mono theistic religions have bits in them like that. Hell, the bible calls for being stoned to death for planting different crops side by side.

Even in Palestine it's more about land and invaders than about religion. To deny this is to deny simple history. Yeah we can see that among the more radical it's put forth as hatred of the Jews, but they don't represent the entire people. Hell, the Jews and Arab Palestinians lived in peace together until Zionism took hold in the early 20th century. That's all the proof you should need.

For the last 500 years the Jews and Arabs lived together well under the Ottoman yoke. I cant see how two peoples that share the same holy site ever be friends.

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and then
15 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

For the last 500 years the Jews and Arabs lived together well under the Ottoman yoke. I cant see how two peoples that share the same holy site ever be friends.

That yoke consisted of civil and religious laws under the sharia.  So long as no Jew could rule anything or have any substantial power, they could have lived as good tax providers, forever.  When they chose to return to their land and MAKE it bloom as their home again, as promised by God, they were no longer ready to crawl and submit.  They found that it cannot be removed, so a fight began and it will end when the world finally realizes that it cannot win against the God of Israel.  Don't think it's possible?  Pay attention to the region.  Sometimes, years may seem like centuries bt ultimately, it will all be cleared up in less than a decade.  The fiercest decade man has ever known.

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ExpandMyMind
44 minutes ago, and then said:

That yoke consisted of civil and religious laws under the sharia.  So long as no Jew could rule anything or have any substantial power, they could have lived as good tax providers, forever.  When they chose to return to their land and MAKE it bloom as their home again, as promised by God, they were no longer ready to crawl and submit.  They found that it cannot be removed, so a fight began and it will end when the world finally realizes that it cannot win against the God of Israel.  Don't think it's possible?  Pay attention to the region.  Sometimes, years may seem like centuries bt ultimately, it will all be cleared up in less than a decade.  The fiercest decade man has ever known.

Where do you get this crap? The Jews under the Ottoman Empire largely had good lives and freedoms. As much as any non Muslim, that is, with added tax. After European persecution in Spain etc, they were welcomed in by the empire. I'm not saying it was equal rights or anything or that there were no incidents, but it was better than you're making out and par for the course in that horrible era. They lived together with Muslims largely without hate.

The rise in conflict between them and Muslims grew both with the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the rise of both Jewish and Arab nationalism. It had practically nothing to do with religion and everything to do with land.

And for Christ's sake, and then, you can't return to somewhere you've never been. Stop with this nonsense of 'their descendants lived there thousands of years ago so they have a right to live there now'. It is so lacking in logic and common sense that I'm comfortable stating unequivocally that it is stupid. Especially when we consider that we now have Israel saying that those descendants of Palestinians in refugee camps don't have a right to return to their parents' land after a single generation. That's an incredibly shocking double standard. I mean it's dazzling in its effectiveness at destroying your warped 'right of return' opinion.

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Hammerclaw

The State of Palestine is a conceptual entity at this point in time, much as the Zionist State was before the end of the British Mandate. While recognized as a fait accompli by some, it has yet to be manifested completely as such on the ground.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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The Truman show
3 hours ago, and then said:

That yoke consisted of civil and religious laws under the sharia.  So long as no Jew could rule anything or have any substantial power, they could have lived as good tax providers, forever.  When they chose to return to their land and MAKE it bloom as their home again, as promised by God, they were no longer ready to crawl and submit.  They found that it cannot be removed, so a fight began and it will end when the world finally realizes that it cannot win against the God of Israel.  Don't think it's possible?  Pay attention to the region.  Sometimes, years may seem like centuries bt ultimately, it will all be cleared up in less than a decade.  The fiercest decade man has ever known.

Not prepared to go all biblical but living as tax payers for the Muslims was not really living for the Jews. We agree on that.

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RoofGardener
On 1/3/2017 at 1:42 PM, ExpandMyMind said:

Lol I can't believe this is still being debated here. There have been Palestinian passports issued since at least 1920 and the indigenous population have been referred to as Palestinians for just as long. You can see them referred to as such in all the relevant documents of the time (Royal Commission etc). But the most important fact here is that they refer to themselves as such and really that's all that matters. Self determination I mean. I'm not going to bother going into this any further, since it always ends up with me laughing and crying at the stupidity (or ignorance) of others, but to say there is no such thing as a Palestinian is a horrendous claim to make. 

 

Not really ExpandMyMind. Those passports where actually called "Palestine Mandate" passports, and where issued by the British Crown. They where merely a travel document for the Palestinian Mandate, and did NOT indicate a "Palestinian State" in the modern understanding of the term. Indeed, Jews where considered "Palestinian" in those days.I believe the original 1962 PLO covenant made no reference to a Palestinian nationality, just an Arab identity. Recall also that the letters "PLO" don't refer to   Palestinian liberation, but to Palestine liberation.

And that really was the crux of my opening post. The "Palestinian State" was effectively created by the Oslo accords.But a pre-condition of those Accords where the "Declaration of Principles". A key part of the DP was that the PLO amend its constitution to remove the clauses calling for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Now, despite many promises, and much political theatre, it appears that the PLO never actually DID that, which is why I posed the original question; "can anyone find a authorised (by the Palestinian National Council) revised version of this covenant, with the promised changes made ? 

Because... no revised charter = abrogation of Oslo = no requirement for the international community (including Israel) to recognise the Palestinian Authority.

Why is NOBODY in the world TALKING about this ? 

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and then
On 3/25/2017 at 2:40 AM, RoofGardener said:

Why is NOBODY in the world TALKING about this ? 

I think it is ignored for the same reason that Biblical references about the region are ignored.  It goes something like this:  There is no GOD so the Bible cannot be His word or be valid, ergo, Israel is and always will be an unnatural, unviable entity.  I won't continue to pound a "religious" drum over this, but it amazes me that so many well-educated people can look at that region today and still deny thata guiding force is shaping the events.  The fact that a tiny piece of ground, inhabited by fewer people than some US cities could be so important (almost magically so) in world affairs, when it has no vast wealth or resources of any kind, boggles the imagination.  People just cast aside every fact or circumstance that is offered as evidence, and deny that anything unusual or special is happening there.  THEN they top it off by continuing to either lie or worse, actually believe, that if only the Palestinians can get a little more of that tiny piece of land, peace will descend at last.  In answer to the original question, NO the state of Palestine doesn't exist, precisely for the reasons you have cited.  The amazing thing is that it WILL exist someday.  An agreement will be struck and the world will see peace in the region.  We even know the length of the treaty/covenant and precisely how long it will actually be in effect.  But even when these things play out, EXACTLY the way they've been described, people like EX will still deny the truth of it.  Not to pick on him in particular, he will have billions for company.  

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Black Red Devil
On 3/25/2017 at 6:40 PM, RoofGardener said:

Not really ExpandMyMind. Those passports where actually called "Palestine Mandate" passports, and where issued by the British Crown. They where merely a travel document for the Palestinian Mandate, and did NOT indicate a "Palestinian State" in the modern understanding of the term. Indeed, Jews where considered "Palestinian" in those days.I believe the original 1962 PLO covenant made no reference to a Palestinian nationality, just an Arab identity. Recall also that the letters "PLO" don't refer to   Palestinian liberation, but to Palestine liberation.

And that really was the crux of my opening post. The "Palestinian State" was effectively created by the Oslo accords.But a pre-condition of those Accords where the "Declaration of Principles". A key part of the DP was that the PLO amend its constitution to remove the clauses calling for the destruction of the State of Israel.

Now, despite many promises, and much political theatre, it appears that the PLO never actually DID that, which is why I posed the original question; "can anyone find a authorised (by the Palestinian National Council) revised version of this covenant, with the promised changes made ? 

Because... no revised charter = abrogation of Oslo = no requirement for the international community (including Israel) to recognise the Palestinian Authority.

Why is NOBODY in the world TALKING about this ? 

Your question is "does a Palestinian State exist?" If an existence needs to be validated, then 193 member nations did so and recognised this entity in 2015.  If the recognised Governing body of this entity has evil intentions towards another member, how does this change the status validated in 2015?

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RoofGardener

Well, thats exactly the thing RBD. The "validation" was based - or rather presented as being based - on the prevailing myth that the PLO had ratified the Oslo accords and amended its constitution to remove the call for the physical destruction of Israel as a state.

This is self evident; no state can sit in the UN if its core constitution calls for the destruction by violence of a neighbour, complete with a rejection of all diplomatic solutions. (both of which are explicitly stated in the PLO constitution document).

Acceptance to the UN was based on the promise by Yasser Arafat (and subsequently Mahmoud Abbas) that this constitution had been amended to remove the commitment to the destruction of Israel by violence.

But where IS this 'amended constitution' ? Can ANYONE find it ? The PLO originally promised to complete it by 1996.. and then continuously dodged and fudged the issue with all sorts of political theatre (including a farcical non-binding "smoke and mirrors" session in front of the President of the USA).

This must surely rank as  one of the biggest "conspiracies of silence" of the 20th (and 21st) Centuries !

 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Black Red Devil
17 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, thats exactly the thing RBD. The "validation" was based - or rather presented as being based - on the prevailing myth that the PLO had ratified the Oslo accords and amended its constitution to remove the call for the physical destruction of Israel as a state.

This is self evident; no state can sit in the UN if its core constitution calls for the destruction by violence of a neighbour, complete with a rejection of all diplomatic solutions. (both of which are explicitly stated in the PLO constitution document).

Acceptance to the UN was based on the promise by Yasser Arafat (and subsequently Mahmoud Abbas) that this constitution had been amended to remove the commitment to the destruction of Israel by violence.

But where IS this 'amended constitution' ? Can ANYONE find it ? The PLO originally promised to complete it by 1996.. and then continuously dodged and fudged the issue with all sorts of political theatre (including a farcical non-binding "smoke and mirrors" session in front of the President of the USA).

This must surely rank as  one of the biggest "conspiracies of silence" of the 20th (and 21st) Centuries !

 

It's not that the PLO has caused much "evil" after Arafat passed away so maybe the world thought the time was right to give the Palis a chance.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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Podo

It's a complex issue. Most of the world's nations recognize it as a nation, but at the same time, it holds no legal territory. It -sort of- has a government, but what power can a government have if it doesn't have land? It has a unique culture, for sure, but so do many groups within larger nations. Canadian natives are the best example of that: they have very distinct histories and cultures, but they're still Canadian, and within Canada, and don't have their own legal nations. Palestine, to me, is similar to that. It's a unique culture that has existed for thousands of years, for sure, but that doesn't stop it from being part of Israel. I don't agree with Israeli atrocities and illegal activities against the Palestinians, but I also don't agree with the common Palestinian claim that the Israeli Jews have no history in the area, nor do I give a flying turd about the Jews' claim that the land was given to them by their deity. Both sides use religion to claim the space, which is absurd. The situation is a hot mess, but it's been a hot mess for long enough that nothing will be gained by pointing fingers and placing blame. The only way out of this shitstorm is by cooperation, which is unfortunately something that seems unlikely. The best I can hope for is that the two cultures will just destroy each other, because I'd love to visit the birthplace of civilization someday, without getting caught up in some silly conflict. 

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The Caspian Hare

I really wish both sides would just accept that they can't get everything they want and give up a little so that they can live on the opposite sides of an international border.

But I guess that's just crazy talk.

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RoofGardener

Crazy talk ? On the contrary, entirely sane TRH. 

That is precisely what the Oslo Accords where trying to accomplish. Which makes the apparent betrayal by the PLO all the more poignant :( 

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RavenHawk
On 4/5/2017 at 1:37 PM, The Russian Hare said:

I really wish both sides would just accept that they can't get everything they want and give up a little so that they can live on the opposite sides of an international border.

But I guess that's just crazy talk.

It would be nice, however, with 7 billion people on this planet, everyone would have to give up everything in order to live in peace.  That doesn’t work.  And what the Palestinian wants most is the destruction or non-existence of Israel.  They teach their children the hatred to perpetuate that mindset.    Their hatred of the Jews is greater than the love for their children.  The only way to deal with that is what Israel is doing.  Make life in the Palestinian territories so undesirable, that the people begin to leave and migrate elsewhere for a better life.
 

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RavenHawk
On 4/5/2017 at 0:56 PM, Podo said:

Palestine, to me, is similar to that. It's a unique culture that has existed for thousands of years, for sure, but that doesn't stop it from being part of Israel. I don't agree with Israeli atrocities and illegal activities against the Palestinians,

Not thousands of years.  Perhaps about 700 years.  That’s when the first tribes migrated from Yemen.  Most were semi-nomadic.  They continued in their gypsy lifestyle not bothered by land ownership.  That kind of responsibility was for someone else and most land owners were absentee or could care less about who squatted on their land.  A few settled down and purchased land and secured legal deeds.  By 1858, the Ottomans were reclaiming defunct deeds.  By 1909, they were selling land to Jews.

There is no possibility of a two-state solution any more.  Too much water under the bridge.  One way or the other, the Palestinian territories will become a part of Israel.

What Israeli atrocities?  What illegal activities?  What have they done except to defend themselves?

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docyabut2
Quote

Did the state of Palestine exist ? It  did but they were Greeks. from the island of  Crete, Abraham came later and the wars over the land was from his two sons. The Arabs living there were offered a state by the British  who were in control of the lands,  but  refused,  where the Jews accepted.

 

Edited by docyabut2

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docyabut2
On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 5:36 AM, RoofGardener said:

My apologies if this has already been discussed (if so, please do point me to the topic.... I couldn't find it in search).. but... a topic arose on another discussion forum, and I'd value your collective wisdom on it. 

We discuss "the Palestinians" in terms of a nation state these days. Perhaps the most concrete representation of this concept is in the creation of the Palestinian Authority, which was created out of the Oslo Accords in the 1990's. Arising from these 'treaties' was the formation of many of the typical institutions of a State, including a Palestinian Parliament, Ministries of various civil affairs, and so forth. Note that the PLO is still regarded as being the sole representative of the "Palestinian people", but it delegates  powers to the Palestinian Authority to create the practical manifestations of the "State" of Palestine. 

Now, here's the interesting thing. The legitimacy of the PA is - as mentioned - based on the two "Oslo" accords. In turn, those accords where based on the preliminary Declaration of Principles. The DoP required that both parties recognise each other; the Israeli government had to treat the PLO as a full negotiating partner, and not a terrorist group, and the PLO had to recognise that Israel had a right to exist, and was a legitimate State. This required that the existing Charter of the PLO had to be amended to remove the passages denying the legitimacy of the State of Israel, and calling for its total destruction.

Rabin and Arafat duly signed these pledges, in a blaze of publicity. 

So far so good. 

The Knesset duly ratified the DoP (and the subsequent Accords), albeit by an unimpressive majority. 

The Palestinian National Committee... the only body authorised to modify the Charter, or to ratify the subsequent Accords.....never did ? They made multiple promises to do both, and multiple excuses, but they never actually DID it.

Can anyone confirm this ? Because if so, then the PA lacks any international legitimacy, and the PLO - the sole representative of the Palestinian People - is still committed to the destruction of Israel. And - as one of just many consequences - there is no such state as "Palestine", and no such nationality as "Palestinian".

 

Thoughts ? 

Did the state of Palestine exist ? It  did but they were Greeks. from the island of  Crete, Abraham came later and the wars over the land was from his two sons. Goliath was a Greek against David.   The Arabs living there were offered a state by the British  who were in control of the lands,  but  refused,  where the Jews accepted.

Edited by docyabut2

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RoofGardener

Thanks for that docyabut2, but I was rather more thinking of the State of Palestine in the modern sense ? (as in.. the Palestinian Authority etc ? )

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