Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
RoofGardener

Does the state of Palestine exist ?

93 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Black Red Devil
12 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

What Israeli atrocities?  What illegal activities?  What have they done except to defend themselves?

How about Sabra and Shatila?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
RavenHawk
3 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

How about Sabra and Shatila?

What about it?  Israel was held responsible but they didn’t order or make the attack.  It was the main Lebanese Christian group that attacked bent on revenge.  Israel was of the mind to let the Arabs kill themselves.  That might not be on the up-and-up (it is war after all) but it is hardly worthy of being accused of committing atrocities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Podo
18 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

 

 

Not thousands of years.  Perhaps about 700 years.  That’s when the first tribes migrated from Yemen.  Most were semi-nomadic.  They continued in their gypsy lifestyle not bothered by land ownership.  That kind of responsibility was for someone else and most land owners were absentee or could care less about who squatted on their land.  A few settled down and purchased land and secured legal deeds.  By 1858, the Ottomans were reclaiming defunct deeds.  By 1909, they were selling land to Jews.

 

There is no possibility of a two-state solution any more.  Too much water under the bridge.  One way or the other, the Palestinian territories will become a part of Israel.

 

What Israeli atrocities?  What illegal activities?  What have they done except to defend themselves?

 

All the illegal settlement plans on the west bank have been declared illegal by the UN. They also often use what appears to be excessive force to deal with small-scale protests. There is nothing wrong with using force when it is required (and it is often required, don't mistake my intent here), but excessive force against peaceful protests is no bueno.

https://www.un.org/press/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38740712

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2014/02/trigger-happy-israeli-army-and-police-use-reckless-force-west-bank/

 

But, as I've said, it isn't a black and white issue. Plenty of what israel does is justified. Plenty of what Palestine does is justified. It's been going on for so long that it's become a feedback loop of violence. It's no good, no matter how you look at it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then
4 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

What about it?  Israel was held responsible but they didn’t order or make the attack.  It was the main Lebanese Christian group that attacked bent on revenge.  Israel was of the mind to let the Arabs kill themselves.  That might not be on the up-and-up (it is war after all) but it is hardly worthy of being accused of committing atrocities.

RavenHawk, on this one we part opinions.  If an army is in position to stop an atrocity against civilians and it fails to do it, especially when that army set up the conditions under which it could occur, they own the consequences.  I think I'm as pro-Israel as anyone on UM but Sharon should have stopped that madness.  The only excuse would have been ignorance that it was happening and that strains credulity.  

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
acute

The fact that Israel is building settlements on territory that they acknowledge to be Palestinian is proof of Palestine's existence.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
docyabut2
Quote

I guess when it comes down to it , Abraham son`s will always be fighting over this land, the Jews accepted a state,  but the Arabs   refused wanting it all, and now to protect the Jews solitary they have to fight.    

 

Edited by docyabut2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
docyabut2
5 hours ago, acute said:

The fact that Israel is building settlements on territory that they acknowledge to be Palestinian is proof of Palestine's existence.

 Israel conquered  these lands in the wars ,so why should they give them back ?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ExpandMyMind
On 12/04/2017 at 5:45 AM, docyabut2 said:

 Israel conquered  these lands in the wars ,so why should they give them back ?

Because the imaginary 'right' of conquest disappeared before Israel even existed. And even if it hadn't, it's an absolutely stupid ideal to support. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ExpandMyMind
On 10/04/2017 at 11:22 PM, RavenHawk said:

 

 

 

What Israeli atrocities?  What illegal activities?  What have they done except to defend themselves?

 

Jesus ****ing Christ, is that sarcasm? That's gotta be sarcasm right? You're trolling here right? 

How about the incredibly well documented (by Israeli historians, no less) premeditated ethnic cleansing that took place in order for Israel to even have a majority Jewish population after its birth? If not for that, Jews, only a 75% majority right now, would be a minority.

Their entire actions since then have been crime after crime after crime. There's no way you believe your own bull****.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RavenHawk
2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Jesus ****ing Christ, is that sarcasm? That's gotta be sarcasm right? You're trolling here right? 

How about the incredibly well documented (by Israeli historians, no less) premeditated ethnic cleansing that took place in order for Israel to even have a majority Jewish population after its birth? If not for that, Jews, only a 75% majority right now, would be a minority.

Their entire actions since then have been crime after crime after crime. There's no way you believe your own bull****.

A bit of sarcasm.  I love it when people try to push revisionist history.  First of all, ethnic cleansing isn’t necessarily an atrocity or illegal.  And two, it was self-inflicted.  The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ordered an evacuation so that the Arab League would have a clear field of fire to kill the Jews.  Nakba had less to do with Israelis forcing the Palestinian out as it was a voluntary act.  That was the tragedy, the Palestinian was deceived by their own leadership.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ExpandMyMind
4 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

A bit of sarcasm.  I love it when people try to push revisionist history.  First of all, ethnic cleansing isn’t necessarily an atrocity or illegal.  And two, it was self-inflicted.  The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ordered an evacuation so that the Arab League would have a clear field of fire to kill the Jews.  Nakba had less to do with Israelis forcing the Palestinian out as it was a voluntary act.  That was the tragedy, the Palestinian was deceived by their own leadership.

 

You realise that what you have just claimed has been debunked to the point of ridicule? Entire careers have been destroyed due to works based on that conspiracy theory and the subject is laughed out of Israel's own universities. 

Also, the revisionist history you unsuccessfully attempt to dismiss was based on declassified Israeli government and military files. It's literally the documented record.

But let's just address your logic (not your claim of 'voluntary' ethnic cleansing, since Israel's own recorded history completely debunks it and outside of the conspiracy section it's not even up for debate) as though what you claim is actually true. Ethnic cleansing is an atrocity and is also illegal. Even if your own warped sense of morality doesn't allow you to see it, the ICC has labelled it a crime against humanity, which is synonymous with an atrocity. And, speaking from a legal point of view, well, it's literally theft. Those houses, those lands, were stolen, by definition.

Also, even if the evacuation had not been forced by Israel, which it absolutely 100% was, by not letting them return, the responsibility would still lie at Israel's feet. The argument you are making is like me returning home from work to find a squatter and being told, 'yeah, the house isn't yours anymore since you left voluntarily'. It's the usual weak, apologist bull****.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then

Well, lets all look on the bright side!  Trump and his son-in-law Jared Kushner are going to set the accounts to rights and bring peace in our time.  So they believe, anyway.  At some point, there will be a treaty that will be acceptable to both parties.  The question is, what is the circumstance prior to it that makes them willing when they have not been willing for decades?  That's the puzzler.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
RavenHawk
3 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

You realise that what you have just claimed has been debunked to the point of ridicule?

Debunked? Since when?  I’ve seen things that have tried because we are in the era of PC.  Fake news and revisionism are rampant.  That is the point of ridicule.

 

Entire careers have been destroyed due to works based on that conspiracy theory and the subject is laughed out of Israel's own universities. 

Entire careers, eh?  Well, universities are universally liberal anyway.  And that includes the need for self-flagellation to repent of some falsely perceived wrong.  Liberals can’t handle success especially when they think it is zero-sum.  The thing is is that there can be winners and losers without it being zero-sum.  If you are a loser, just move on and create a new win.  With 7 billion people on this planet, you can’t make everyone happy.  Because of that, there are many more losers than winners.  People are dynamic.  Keep trying something until you find something you are a winner at.  When you find that, there will be someone else that is a loser and they should move on.  In the case of Palestine, the Arabs have lost – move on.

 

Also, the revisionist history you unsuccessfully attempt to dismiss was based on declassified Israeli government and military files. It's literally the documented record.

I’ll dismiss it successfully every day of the week.  Let’s consider that it is true.  That the Israelis forced the Palestinians from ‘their’ land.  We’re talking about two groups of people that have been at it for a long time.  Giving as good as they took.  Neither side was budging.  They were pretty much equal in power.  Then all of a sudden we are to believe that the Palestinian got scared and ran away?  And this was with the knowledge that the Arab League was driving in to kick the Jew into the sea.  One can only take so much malarkey.  If I knew the cavalry was coming, I would hunker down.  The Palestinian would not just run away.  The Jews were just as afraid but they stood their ground.  The Israeli government documented everything, even alternative theories.  They even maintain the repository of bogus deeds that the British recorded.  Do you have a link to this declassified info?  I’m thinking that in the course of battle, some of those that had not fled, decided to flee at the last moment and in that sense, the Jews chased off the indecisive procrastinators.  Many others stayed behind and have become part of Israel.  Mostly those that had legitimate deeds.

 

But let's just address your logic (not your claim of 'voluntary' ethnic cleansing, since Israel's own recorded history completely debunks it and outside of the conspiracy section it's not even up for debate) as though what you claim is actually true.

Well, let’s see this recorded history that seems to have just emerged.  I would think that if this was legitimate, that it would have ended up on this forum already or at least I would have seen it elsewhere.  Or is this old news getting a new revisionist twist?

 

Ethnic cleansing is an atrocity and is also illegal. Even if your own warped sense of morality doesn't allow you to see it, the ICC has labelled it a crime against humanity, which is synonymous with an atrocity.

That is not necessarily the case.  Ethnic cleansing has been a legal power of the state from the very beginning.  And you bring up an artificial construct trying to regulate a power of the state?  It may not be something “nice” but it wasn’t meant to be.  And sometimes it did lead to genocide.  History is replete with examples that didn’t.  The Roman depopulation of Palestine, la Reconquista, the termination of the Pale of Settlement, resettlement of the Native American, etc.

 

And, speaking from a legal point of view, well, it's literally theft. Those houses, those lands, were stolen, by definition.

From a legal point of view, all the land on this planet that is currently owned by somebody once belonged to someone else and had been stolen.  In some cases, multiple times.  So everybody should just give up their property?

 

Also, even if the evacuation had not been forced by Israel, which it absolutely 100% was, by not letting them return, the responsibility would still lie at Israel's feet.

It wasn’t forced by Israel but they did take advantage of it.  Al-Husayni and the Arab Higher Committee (Arab League) used fear to clear the Palestinian out of the villages.  The first Secretary-General, Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam stated; “I am fighting for a country and villages do not matter”.  That was just another bad decision in a long train of bad decisions the Palestinian had made.  That’s why I consider this divine intervention because nobody could be this stupid.  There are no do overs in real life.  If you attack someone and abandon land you occupy doesn’t mean that the victor is somehow obligated to return any land.  Giving up land for such reasons would make the victor more stupid than the vanquished.

 

The argument you are making is like me returning home from work to find a squatter and being told, 'yeah, the house isn't yours anymore since you left voluntarily'. It's the usual weak, apologist bull****.

Poor analogy.  In this case, the homes would have been owned by the Ottomans and the Fellahin would be the squatters.  The land then transferred to the British and then to Israel when the Mandate ended.  The Palestinian wanted nothing to do with it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
third_eye

So, if this is being stated as a case of Israeli 'conquered' Palestine territory, reconquering it from Israeli would be the only viable and legitimate option left for the Palestinians ...

~

Edited by third_eye
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then
5 hours ago, third_eye said:

So, if this is being stated as a case of Israeli 'conquered' Palestine territory, reconquering it from Israeli would be the only viable and legitimate option left for the Palestinians ...

~

That seems to be the case, but I actually believe there will be a treaty between them at some point where Israel removes from some of the land and a new reality will exist on the ground.  I even believe that Trump may have a part in beginning this process.  Time will tell.  I don't believe the peace will last for very long and I don't believe Israel will ever again be sent into diaspora.  How it all plays out remains to be seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
third_eye
1 hour ago, and then said:

That seems to be the case, but I actually believe there will be a treaty between them at some point where Israel removes from some of the land and a new reality will exist on the ground.  I even believe that Trump may have a part in beginning this process.  Time will tell.  I don't believe the peace will last for very long and I don't believe Israel will ever again be sent into diaspora.  How it all plays out remains to be seen.

Not as long as Bibi is calling the shots ... if any despot has to go in the world today ... that there is your poster child right there ...

~

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RavenHawk
8 hours ago, third_eye said:

So, if this is being stated as a case of Israeli 'conquered' Palestine territory, reconquering it from Israeli would be the only viable and legitimate option left for the Palestinians ...

In a child-like view point, yes of course.  But in reality, they wouldn’t be re-conquering it, they would be conquering it or just right out stealing as they did with the Ottomans.  When the Mandate ended, that established Palestine as an unorganized territory which meant that any prior claims were forfeit.  That meant anyone could have put t a claim on the land.  Israel made that claim on the evening of 14 May 1948 (the evening before the Mandate ended).  At the same time, the Palestinians rejected to take any part to share in the claim because they felt they could have it all with the Arab League barreling in on Jewish territory.  So they have no claim to re-conquer.  But at this point attacking is the only viable (not so much legitimate) option left.  Their children are so poisoned with hate that there won’t be any territory left for them to live in peace.  Is Israel taking advantage of this?  I think so and that just makes the Palestinians even madder.  And Israel has no obligation or motivation not to.  It goes back to what I said before.  From the beginning, the Palestinian has always made bad decisions.  This is why they are considered the gypsies of the Muslim world.  No one else wants to take them in.  Many probably seek passports from other nations so they can migrate to some other place and start over.  Those who can’t are just consumed more by their hatred and they only have themselves to blame.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
third_eye
6 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

*Those who can’t are just consumed more by their hatred and they only have themselves to blame.*

Another one of your classic Freudian slips I presume ?

~

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.